Global high-performance proof-of-stake blockchain with erasure coding
102 comments
·May 28, 2025leshokunin
crq-yml
There's a quiet rumbling left over and doing more background development, trading is still taking place. The major impasse is really with "what's the framing for this invention now" - the invention is still interesting but it isn't a good technology until you have established a motive to depend on it at scale.
The flood gates are opening to do things with blockchains again in the US, although the motive for that is "more scams".
leshokunin
It feels like they are still searching for demand and a use case. Having made a lot of tech in the space and in ipfs, I find that all the things it’s good at are just more readily accepted when in web2
csomar
The bubble has popped and the euphoria has tuned down. However, the stable coins market is a $1-2trillion market (https://defillama.com/stablecoins), so there is still a long way to go/grow. Other cryptos like Bitcoin and Ethereum will continue to exist. Bitcoin mainly as an asset against the stable and Ethereum as a network to process defi transactions (you can exchange stable coins for crypto without an exchange now).
veqq
Bubble popped? Bitcoin is right at its all time high, about $110,000.
birn559
As long as professional scammers (Fin and crypto FinTech) believe they can extract more money, Bitcoin will grow. As crypto currency is still an underregulated asset there will always be more ways to extract money in a shady way. Basically fast-forwarding all the reasons for the regulations of conventional assets.
csomar
Alts never recovered. Also is Bitcoin really near ATH or did the dollar devalue? Previous ATH was roughly $70k and in that period, Gold doubled. So reaching previous ATH in my math is roughly $140k. That does match, in my experience, the rising real livings costs of food, housing and services.
bawolff
Hype cycles always eventually die down. The true test of a technology is whether it survives the post-hype low point or slowly fades away. Time will tell which one blockchain is.
sph
It’s all AI these days. In 10 years we’ll ask the same question about LLMs when we have all moved on to **
munksbeer
Completely disagree. I'm a long term bitcoin holder but as interesting as the original bitcoin whitepaper and game theory mechanisms are, it still feels like technology looking for a problem to solve.
LLMs and their generative variants are far more mind blowing. It is kind of pointless to get into another debate about use cases, because that has already been done a lot, but people are producing actual real world output right now with these tools. Right now, they are at the worst they will ever be.
Obviously you don't have to agree with me, but I think you are 100% incorrect about this technology. It may not exactly be LLMs in a strict definition that we interact with in 10 years, but it will be derivatives.
sph
You make a fine argument, but also crypto is a multi-trillion dollar business at this point, powered by crime or not.
LLMs are all potential right now, but are no way as large and I dare say established as even just Bitcoin. As a fan of Satoshi’s creation, the impact of Bitcoin over society in the long term will be at least as large at the impact of LLMs, whether it’ll still be BTC or some other decentralised trustless digital currency powered by cryptography.
theywillnvrknw
I am hoping we (humans) can build self sustaining economies around high throughput blockchains like this one - https://internetcomputer.org/
flakeoil
Most replies relate to crypto, but blockchains can be used for so many other applications than crypto coins.
leshokunin
In theory. That’d be just a slow but decentralized database. I think people have yet to come up with a product that has demand and uses this idea
ycui1986
it is because we are not at the top of this bull market. When crypto hits Hacker News front page every other day, then you it is the peak of the bull cycle. Happened every time in all past cycles.
proxynoproxy
I don’t think this is anything like past cycles. Blackrock and Nations be playing this time. Stack accordingly.
esseph
Countries can have FOMO, too
bracketfocus
What’s with the hate for proof-of-stake? Seems like the hate is directed towards the fact that those have more to stake, benefit more.
Can’t the same argument be made about proof-of-work? Those who have the ability to buy more compute, also benefit more.
Instead of buying GPUs/ASICs for mining you’re buying into the network you’re trying to secure.
proxynoproxy
Because it’s not external referencing. It’s all on chain, and any external price of tokens is all in humans minds. Of course, true of Bitcoin too. However, energy is the external thing that links time and computation to the chain data. Really, Bitcoin PoW is an amazing discovery. Proof of Stake is self serving self referencial database.
Bitcoin through Proof of Work is a global computational one-way valve for a ledger, which enables a fuzzy decentralized time, by which we can enforce digital scarcity! The ledger record becomes the digital commodity. What an age!
Proof of stake ends up as chain where 26 dudes in discord can freeze accounts, lock the chain, etc, etc. it’s not really different than 26 banks doing the same. And really you have to ask yourself about the purpose of any of this if you are trading 26 banks for 26 dudes in a discord.
keeganpoppen
Bitcoin proof of work is both the sine qua non and the ne plus ultra of the entire sphere… and i say this as an enjoyer of all the fancy math et al. in the space. it is genuinely a monumental achievement… one whose value… is indeterminate (at best; and worst). and i wouldn’t dare opine on that point, because i’m “from Switzerland” on this. but that it opened a mathemeatical pandora’s box is undeniable. when i read the original Bitcoin paper (about a year after publication) i was suffused with the feeling that something fundamental was “discovered” in a way i’ve only felt a handful of times in my entire life… (and then i spent all my BTC on drugs)
mistercheph
+1 blockchains and cryptocurrencies are super interesting and valuable IMO outside of the present speculative lotteries people are playing.
But I suspect even more interesting things than the current applications will come out of the opening of a bridge between pure computation and the material world over the next decades/centuries/millenia.
everfree
> Proof of Stake is self serving self referencial database.
Proof of Work is much more self-serving than Proof of Stake, as it demands external expenditures to keep itself running. PoS can perform the same job (running a blockchain) without demanding that the world drop what it's doing to contribute electricity to one massive global tragedy of the commons.
Being self-referential is a beneficial feature, not a bug.
> Proof of stake ends up as chain where 26 dudes in discord can freeze accounts, lock the chain, etc, etc.
That's where Proof of Work ends up, not Proof of Stake. PoW's economies of scale always eventually result in a network controlled by a handful of massive mining operations running at razor-thin margins. The "26 dudes in discord" that people talk about are the CEOs of large mining warehouses with custom chips that make it impossible for home miners to break even.
In contrast, with a well-designed Proof of Stake system, people can contribute by staking at home and running mini-PCs in closets at edge locations. It has the potential to remain a much more grassroots network with less concentration of wealth, if the initial distribution is relatively fair. There is no economy of scale and ideally no concentration of wealth over time - as everyone earns the same percent returns in staking.
proxynoproxy
Haha, no. Like in sui where the validators halted and froze? Or Solana where dishonest stalkers rigged the delegated staking auction and stole from other stakers?
What you are repeating is the same PoS nonsense. Get out of here. Eth drove off a cliff when it went PoS. It’s going to zero vs Bitcoin, like every other PoS (or alt) coin. It’s all just PoS cartels. Meanwhile, many people have their “edge” BitAxe earning Bitcoin.
nb: PoS can never really be fairly distributed. It’s printed out of nothing to enrich the founders. The billionaires were dumping Sol on retail last cycle. It can never escape this. Eth was “premined”.
throwaway290
PoW is supported by two things, belief that waste of energy is valuable and criminals using it to workaround sanctions.
proxynoproxy
It’s more that waste energy allows one way process, which is valuable. Valves. Diodes. One doesn’t complain about waste heat from computation in general, if that computation has value.
And the second part - you won’t understand because you prefer authority to set monetary policy. The history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust.
someone235
If someone has 30% of the stake, he can keep his share forever if he wants to. If someone has 30% of the hash power he has to keep innovating and keep up with the competition to keep his share. This kind of dynamics makes PoW permissionless, since you don't need cooperation from other miners in order of joining the game.
everfree
To join a PoW chain as a profitable miner, you need cooperation from a chip fabrication factory, a local courier, your local government (customs), and your local electricity company, at minimum.
To join a PoS chain as a profitable staker, all you need cooperation from is literally one person anywhere in the world who wants to sell you some of their coins. Then you can stake on commodity hardware.
proxynoproxy
No, you need to buy from an insider. Who bought from an insider. Who bought from an insider. Who printed it from nothing.
Meanwhile PoW needs real work. Real resources. Real effort. PoS is a Ponzi
wmf
I suspect it's tribalism with layers of rationalizations on top.
sph
Capital (stake) can be accumulated infinitely, without friction, and usually the more you have the more its value accelerates upwards.
Work can be increased, certainly, but you pretty much hit major physical blocks to its increase, whether it’s productivity, lack of capital, energy costs, competition finding new ways to do the same work for less cost.
Really, the parallels to real world wealth disparity are reflected in why proof-of-stake is just a bad idea, unless you are one of the “1%” of crypto mining, then you just have to sit and wait for your stake to increase indefinitely. Then why not lend it for interest? You can get it to grow even faster. Whoops, we have reinvented the global economy and the wealth disparity.
D13Fd
With proof-of-work, we as a society are doing insane things like burning large amounts of fossil fuels on a warming planet just to ensure people don’t cheat at various distributed spreadsheets. Even if you don’t participate in crypto, those who do are polluting your environment, increasing your electricity costs, and generally making the planet worse all to run their distributed spreadsheets
With proof-of-stake, all of the annoying crypto folk are basically harmless. They generate near zero economic value (moving money from place to place, which can be accomplished without crypto) but they don’t hurt anybody except for other crypto folk.
kingstnap
Proof of Work provides scarcity that makes crypto work. Stake just removes the physical scarcity so it fundamentally can't work.
I think proof of storage or something would be more interesting as a (partial) solution to the crypto folk wasting electricity.
Ideally as proof of RAM though. We don't want them abusing cloud storage plans.
sph
> we as a society are doing insane things like burning large amounts of fossil fuels
Period. Shutting down Bitcoin won't solve global warming, and Bitcoin doesn't require fossil fuels necessarily to run. This is a tired argument that blames the ills of the world on one thing that you don't particularly like or see the benefit of. Bitcoin just likes abundant, cheap energy just like everything else in our modern world.
Technological societies require increasing amounts of energy. The issue is that fossil fuels are easier to generate electricity out of, favoured by governments, lobbies and voters alike, so renewables are more expensive. If your issue is burning large amounts of fossil fuels, you should work on this problem rather than complaining about one user downstream of the problem. It's easy to point the finger because it's easy to calculate how much energy bitcoin uses (transactions per day * energy per transaction), so it's easy to make a one-line viral tweet blaming all the ills of the world on it, while there are much more wasteful businesses whose energy usage is hard to quantify that everyone conveniently ignores.
It is so tiring to have to explain this every time on every HN thread, but I guess it's always so easy to convince oneself there is a simple solution to very hard problems. "Just shut Bitcoin down, I don't see a use for it so it's useless."
proxynoproxy
“I hate TikTok and all those ByteDance Data Centers must be shut down because it’s a waste and I don’t like it”.
runeks
With proof-of-stake, an attacker compromising a majority of private keys results in the attacker taking control of the blockchain. The attacker could publish only empty blocks using this stake majority, and there'd be no way to distinguish these malicious valid blocks from actually useful blocks.
This makes proof-of-stake inherently less secure than proof-of-work because for PoW blockchains, consensus is not affected by compromising private keys.
bawolff
Instead, it can be attacked simply by purchasing a lot of compute.
For a smaller chain, purchasing a lot of compute sounds easier than hacking everyone's keys. Not to mention if you can hack someone's private key, surely you can hack their server farm
(Fwiw, i think both have a similar level of risk, its just coming from different threats)
runeks
> Instead, it can be attacked simply by purchasing a lot of compute.
Firstly, no one is offering for sale enough compute to attack e.g. Bitcoin.
Secondly, and more importantly, this would be a temporary attack, during which the blockchain in question is rendered unusable. Once an honest majority of hashing power is reestablished, everything is back to normal. But a compromise of a majority stake is a permanent compromise of a chain. No honest actor can conjure up more stake to gain an advantage over the attacker who now sits on a majority.
sph
> Instead, it can be attacked simply by purchasing a lot of compute.
It’s easier to accumulate a lot of money than to accumulate a lot of hardware and building a nuclear plant to literally outcompete the rest of the world, no? And at that point you are no longer invisible, so the rest of the world could simply decide to ignore your monopolistic contributions to the blockchain altogether and fork.
everfree
I think it would be much easier for e.g. state actors to take control of a few of the world's PoW mining locations than to compromise a bunch of people's private keys.
proxynoproxy
You don’t really get how mining pools work. It’s not a monolithic thing. well OK MARA is a proprietary pool, but the rest are made up of people contributing hash. If a state actor took over a pool, we could spin up another quick smart. Hash is fluid. Try that with slashing and stake lockups and others nonsense PoS invents to do a worse job.
runeks
> [...] than to compromise a bunch of people's private keys.
No reason to target many people's private keys. Just find a few insecure exchanges — maybe a single exchange is enough, even — that together hold a majority of stake.
someone235
Btw, this is one of the reasons they wanted to revert the DaoHack - they didn't want a malicious entity to hold 5% of the stake
Mistletoe
It’s just ignorance pure and simple. Proof of stake means you don’t enrich chipmakers and electric companies on the way to your security.
proxynoproxy
Nah you just enrich the founders who did nothing except print all the tokens out of nothing. PoS is worthless, it came from nothing, it is worth nothing.
Animats
Proof of stake: Government of the rich, for the rich, by the rich.
Can't anybody do better?
drdeca
Ruling is done by rulers, and the people who have lots of power are the powerful people. Money can be exchanged for goods and services.
If we have no way to determine whether two accounts are held by the same person, so that influence can only be determined by what one has, then it should behave the same pattern I would think.
bawolff
Depends on what properties you want your system to have. For some properties yes, for others no.
Of course anyone can come up with something new at any time.
sph
Yes, see the Bitcoin white paper ;)
kinakomochidayo
I don’t think Bitcoin whitepaper talks about ASIC monopoly and economies of scale :D
everfree
Proof of stake isn't a government, it's a network time protocol.
weregiraffe
You can use weapons. Let's call it Proof of Ammo.
wmf
Proof of Eyeball —sama
packetlost
Yes. Proof of Logits.
tonyhart7
but that just how life goes
Flemlo
Someone wanted to fix block chains now we have one more problem XD
Btw to add content: exchang between block chains is not a solved problem. Adding more doesn't help
up2isomorphism
Proof of stake is exactly a scam.
drdeca
You seem to be using the word “scam” in an unusual way. What do you mean by it?
Genuinely asking: do people here still care about blockchain? I used to work in the space, I’m not trying to be nasty. Just that it seems the interest has vanished