TikTok has turned culture into a feedback loop of impulse and machine learning
162 comments
·September 10, 2025keiferski
kulahan
Worth mentioning that literally any video under 60 seconds is forced to be a short, which is that stupid type of YouTube video where they remove a bunch of controls and make the overall experience miserable.
So maybe that’s pushing longer-form content as well. Some people making 30 second videos moves to 90 second ones to avoid the bad format, this crowds the format and pushes others up as well?
Totally talking out of my ass here.
null
quxbar
I won't even look at a youtube video essay about an obscure vintage RPG (my preferred form of guilty pleasure viewing) if it's under 20 minutes long.
xhrpost
I watched a 2 hour video on the history of computer RPGs, I think it was specific to DND, and found it captivating. Would also like to hear your recs.
brokencode
What was it? I would also like a rec in this genre.
echelon
I hate this bifurcation.
I almost never want 2-hour documentary style videos, yet 1-minute teasers leave me even more dissatisfied.
I want 5-minute to 15-minute videos. They can be either overviews or summaries that cover broad stretches or super focused essays that go deeply in depth on just a singular hyper-focused point.
Long-form typically means opinionated and written for a lay audience. Filled with unnecessary pregnant pauses, fluff, and breathing room. Historians trying to craft a narrative.
Stop wasting your viewer's precious time on b-roll or building a case. Smart audiences will trust you if you're succinct and factual.
So take the heinously verbose documentary format, trim it down to just 10 to 15 minutes, and you're left with a fast-paced, frenetic, fully dehydrated, factual blow-by-blow.
That's the sweet spot. Maximum information density.
moduspol
I prefer my movie reviews to be longer in duration than the movies themselves.
mystifyingpoi
Me too, but then it's no longer a review honestly. More like a breakdown or analysis.
bitwize
Hoe many pizza rolls have you sent to that guy's webzone?
giancarlostoro
In my case, YouTube has figured out that I love Pokemon videos where the streamer does really silly things with old Pokemon games (like resetting the emulator 9001 times to find a shiny in order to have a full on Shiny only pokedex, including the starter pokemon. In my case I don't care how long the videos are though.
bo-tao
Lol that sounds interesting, can you share the video?
mid-kid
Most of the 20+ minute long videos are bound to be filled to the brim with filler and bullshit. I'm not asking for much, but please stop pretending your video game review is worth an hour of introductions, personal anecdotes, comedy sketches and 3 sponsor ads.
malignblade
Going to need some recommendations
trenchpilgrim
Jwlar
Mandaloregaming
Josh Strife Plays
The Sphere Hunter
Hovertruck
Check out Majuular
bigyabai
Second Wind is up and running with (2012's favorite) Yahtzee Crowshaw running the ship. An episode of Fully Ramblomatic runs a chipper >10min with barely a second to spare.
tmtvl
Bobbin Threadbare.
aspenmayer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQVdR8mJrds
The Making of Vampire Survivors by noclip.
Vintage inspired with the game choice, not straight vintage, but noclip is one of the best doing game documentaries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZmcbShMFNY
The Story of Thief & Looking Glass Studios, also by noclip.
As vintage as they come.
coldpie
A fellow Basement Brothers viewer??
Analemma_
I understand the motivation but this mindset has failure modes of its own: I'm noticing an increasing number of longform YouTube essay channels adding tons of unnecessary padding to increase the runtime. They don't all do this-- to pick a random example, I think Defunctland videos are exactly as long as they need to be-- but a bunch of the smaller ones do. Ultimately there's no metric shortcut for actual quality.
cogman10
The other failure is that youtube wants quantity over quality. That incentivizes some bad behaviors. The hbomber video about plagerism is ultimately about that. Taking shortcuts, using 3rd parties (or now AI) to write scripts. It's all really negatively impacted the medium.
AI in particular is like coke to lazy content makers. I've had to drop a few because it became clear that AI took the lead in writing.
prophesi
If your Youtube video is 8 minutes or longer (and your channel is monetized), you're able to place midroll ads every minute or so to maximize ad revenue. Typically Youtube only serves a very small fraction of these midroll ads to each user; usually every 10 - 15 minutes. So 16min+ has been the sweet spot.
It's this ad incentive that has made long-form videos more popular on Youtube.
nicce
Yeah, I have unsubscribed/stopped viewing many specific creators because of this.
They start cycling content and using innovative ways to make videos artificially longer. Some videos of have "what this video is about" and "Summary" sections which can be even half of the video length in total. Sponsored sections are getting longer. There are longer pauses and less editing. The list goes on.
eighthourblink
every 10 - 15 minutes? Thats cute
ryandrake
Yea, I've seen some YouTube videos that display ~30 seconds worth of ads every 3.5 minutes of a hour long video. It's gotten quite ridiculous.
trinix912
> So I think we're seeing more of a bifurcation: in-depth longform videos are becoming 30, 40, 60, even 90 minutes long, whereas anything shorter than 10 minutes is being compressed to 30-60 seconds.
Could it be that the shorter videos that are now 30-60 seconds present the same information as they did when they were ~10min, just without all extra prologue, epilogue, and sponsor inserts? Wasn't one of the reasons they were ~10min in the first place simply to get monetized better?
kulahan
I think we saw 7 minute videos become 10 minutes, not a 20x increase in length for super short-form ones.
monadoid
I think HN is getting old - nobody has mentioned second screen viewing! imo, youtube videos are getting longer because everyone is just turning stuff on in the background while they're on their phones.
esseph
My wife and oldest kid who have ADHD are like that. My youngest, myself, and the middle aged kid never have anything on other than what we are actively paying attention to.
password54321
You haven't actually contradicted anything in the article. People can have low attention spans and watch a 30 minute MrBeast video of people shouting. People can have YouTube running on their TV while still being on their phone.
Your narrative isn't any less "simple" or any better backed up.
linhns
Sadly, some of the best contents aer 5-10 minutes, I pick up some investing tips from those, although some longer ones can be 2x-ed or seeked to only view a chunk.
jonbiggums22
I wish they'd give you more than 2x speed in the web player. Lots of videos seem to talk extra slowly to drag things out to the point 2x speed sounds like normal conversational speed.
linhns
It’s hard to talk that slow and still be able to keep the viewers attentive to the content. I often put on 1.5 or 1.75x as most since I’m not a natural English speaker, though that may be different for born speakers.
Mistletoe
Can you share some of these YouTube investing tips?
RankingMember
Buy Low Sell High! Please like and subscribe and tomorrow I'll tell you about index funds!
linhns
I pick some random suggested videos then do the opposite.
nicce
More you share, less value they provide!
bogtog
> At the same time, YouTube videos are getting longer, and people are watching more YouTube videos on TVs than on mobile devices
I assume this is a replacement for TV/streaming. Cases were you previously would've wanted a 10-minute YouTube video are becoming cases where you watch 30-60 second ones. Cases where you previously wanted a 20+ minute Netlfix show are becoming ones where you turn to long YouTube videos
ndriscoll
This post popped up a blocking window before I was even 3 sentences in, so maybe unsurprising that I clicked away in less than 60 seconds. If the author wants people to read whatever it is they have to say, maybe they should not put distractions in front of their writing?
j1elo
Wow it is that bad! It's a white full screen on-your-face message that no one asked for, and it literally appears as soon as you start reading the content!
If that wasn't ironic enough to the title of the article, upon hitting the "X" and then "Back" on my phone (because it generated enough rejection on me that I didn't want to keep reading), the popup appeared again (-: so double annoyance for the price of one.
skulk
The worst part is that it pushes an item onto the history stack both when it opens and closes. So I need to press back 3 times to go back. It's a small thing to complain about but it's still atrocious.
elpocko
OP is only here to promote their own content, never comments, never posts anything other than their own blog.
bee_rider
It is sort of impressive, they seem to have keyed to what sort of posts make it here quite quickly (two failures, then two successes at getting engagement).
pwg
Ublock Origin in default block all Javascript mode results in being able to read the entire article with no distracting popup's at any time during the read.
markus_zhang
Also the margins are too large. I really disdain the "modern" UI designs and I'm not afraid to disdain the people who design them.
Better to be just a txt file. If OP wants $$, just put up a Pantheon page.
giancarlostoro
I intentionally do not use adblockers, but when your ads either dominate the page, or prevent me from navigating, I close the tab.
natalie3p
Thanks for the feedback :)
atlintots
For me, the worst part is that it is so hard to go back to previous forms of media. I often delete these short form content apps in an effort to quit them, but it is now so difficult to get engaged with "slower" forms of media. The thing with Tiktok isn't the length of the media, it's just how fast-paced and "catchy" it is. I could watch an hour long fast paced video just fine, but watching a slow paced show, or reading a book is so much more difficult.
It truly is like a drug.
mtalantikite
> I could watch an hour long fast paced video just fine, but watching a slow paced show, or reading a book is so much more difficult.
Attention and concentration are skills that can be trained, so not all is lost. I was feeling like I was losing my focus about a decade ago and decided that every morning I'd wake up and read a novel for 30 minutes or so. Within a few weeks you'll notice the difference.
famahar
Yeah, it's amazing how nice this feels. You can tell your brain is healing. You're lighter, happier, more relaxed. The first few days are rough though. Hard to focus. Need for stimulation. It really is a drug. Horrible reality so many people are trapped in.
pier25
I was going to suggest exactly this. Start with easier to read novels. Maybe YA stuff.
rrgok
I don't understand. The problem is not that we don't have attention or concentration. Otherwise how can he watch hour long fast paced video. This a different form of attention. I would like to call it the intensity of attention.
Reading a book, require attention but of lower intensity. While watching an hour long fast paced video, require a high intensity attention.
mtalantikite
Well, one is active and the other is passive.
In the case of watching an hour of video, you're just there consuming what's going on. Reading a novel requires you to world build internally. I'd say that sort of attention is a much higher intensity version. Or at least it takes a lot more active involvement.
If you've ever sat for meditation you'll know that low-input stimulation can be much harder to keep your attention on, but being lost in daydreaming and 'monkey-mind' chatter is pretty effortless. Once you train in it it becomes no big deal, though. Same is true for reading novels.
jquery
They put reading a book and watching slow paced television in the same category, which to me seems like a category error entirely. I see nothing wrong with avoiding slow-paced video… life is short, time is precious. If slow video is not your thing, that’s fine. However, books are a different matter entirely. Not all books are worth reading, but being unable to read any book is definitely a sign that your attention span is suffering. Some books are low-intensity, but some are quite high-intensity, and everything in between. But regardless of where they are on that spectrum, all books require an attention span greater than the one required to watch TikTok videos.
My attention span went (back) up after I forced myself to read some books start to finish. It’s something you can lose, but fortunately it’s also something you can regain.
cvoss
Try going a whole day (like a Saturday) without consuming any digital media. It can be a challenging experience, but totally worth it, even if just once, to feel what it's like to not be tied to such things. I found it very relaxing and freeing.
No YT, FB, IG, TT, or TV for sure. For an extra challenge, try no music (except what you can make yourself) or news (including HN). You'll find yourself grabbing your phone only to immediately put it down again.
No need to force yourself to read or go for a walk or whatever. Do whatever you feel like all day, just not the digital things.
jerf
Try the video speed adjustments. Most sites offer 2x now. Up to 4x is getting around, and that's generally going to be past what most people can understand for speech, even with practice. I do a lot of YouTube long-form content but I do a lot of it at 2x or even 2.5x. There's also a lot of such things that are effectively podcasts with irrelevant video backgrounds, or only rarely relevant video, so you can do something else entirely while listening.
ryandrake
My kid and all of her friends watch video content at 2-4x now all the time, because they just can't seem to get through anything talking at a normal pace. I want to worry about that, but I don't know why it's worrying.
boringg
You let your dopamine loop get hacked
jollyllama
This. It's going to take some serious effort to un-wirehead yourself. Look to religious traditions for methods. Meditation, fasting, prayer.
famahar
Watch the film Sátántangó in one sitting with no distraction. If you can do that, you are healed. I imagine a chronic tiktok user would find the film a form of torture.
ryandrake
Almost any film from the mid-70s and earlier, go online and read recent reviews, and they're all full of complaints about the pacing. "Too boring!" "Too slow!" "Fell asleep while watching!"
I mean, first of all, who falls asleep during a movie? Even stuff I've seen 30 times already, is still engaging and holds my attention from start to finish. Yet, then again, we've had to cancel "friends movie night" in our house because people would come over, sit down to watch the movie, and after 10 minutes they're all scrolling their phones and bored with the movie. Unless it's got frantic action every second, you're going to lose people. Something is really wrong with our attention spans.
lm28469
That's how they get kids too now, look at patpatrol and the other slop they ship, you don't get more than 1 second without a cut. These kids are fucked forever, setup for failure from birth
dleeftink
The first step to recovery is...
You'll get there. Go from shorter form content to things that'll grab your attention, piece by piece.
googlryas
I think you need to make the judgement if a long video is long because it's worth it and needs to be that long, or because it's padded for some reason. When I come across a padded video that I still want to consume for some reason, I usually just paste the url into gemini and ask for a tl;dr and get a few paragraphs to read summarizing the video.
kelseyfrog
Reading Debord's Society of the Spectacle in the age of TikTok is surreal.
In some ways, it reads like prophecy. He mapped the inevitability of image-mediated life before we had the feeds to prove him right. In other ways, it feels trivial. Today's hyperreality makes the theory so obvious it barely registers as theory at all, more like a weather report. We don’t have to imagine the spectacle when we're already drowning in it.
My gripe with "How is new media transforming us?" journalism is that it never gets past the pre-theoretical stage. It inventories symptoms: shorter attention spans, algorithmic optimization, but won't name the cause. It's like reporting the moon's position every night and refusing to mention gravity.
The point that matters is Debord's: social relations mediated by images have replaced embodied relations. Platforms sell us connection, but what they deliver is commodification. Yes, some internet friendships spill into real life. But most are fragile, living inside economic structures designed to monetize attention. Everyone already knows the real relation isn't friend-to-friend but user-to-advertiser, and money always wins.
That's the basecamp for any way out: recognizing that hyperreal social life can't substitute lived social life. The spectacle doesn't mediate friendship, it mediates consumption. And if Debord feels obvious now, that's only because his warning has become the background condition of everyday life. Facebook can't really connect you to friends; it can only connect you to advertisers.
Dilettante_
Thank you for the reminder, dear imaginary person on my screen.
nadermx
Does no one remember vine? They showed there was a niche for a certain type of content. I think it all generally boils down to a sort of comparison of cell phone vs desktop vs maybe even laptop. It's not that when one came out the other was used less. It's instead that each was used now for different purposes, so usage in total basically 2-3x'd.
zoba
So strange to think about how Vine could’ve won this and an American company could’ve been the leader here.
xnx
A reminder of how much of success is luck/timing.
moduspol
And remember Quibi [1]? Short-form video in vertical format specifically for mobile devices? They didn't have every aspect nailed, but they were definitely trailblazers on that front.
AlexAplin
Quibi launched in April 2020. TikTok by this point would have 2 billion downloads [1]. It's difficult to assess they were trailblazers here. I might even say a component of their failure is free mobile video was widely accessible by this point.
[1]: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/29/21241788/tiktok-app-downl...
m0llusk
Didn't have every aspect nailed? Definitely trailblazers? Quibi is a prime example of an absolute business wipeout. They got a bunch of investor money together, showed no interest in what viewers actually want, and then went down in flames immediately upon public release of the product. The whole thing was a disaster that didn't accomplish anything beyond putting a bunch of capital in the pockets of C grade C suite players.
apparent
Was that at all like TikTok? I thought it was professional creators, not community-sourced.
giancarlostoro
They really dropped the ball.
crazysim
It got Kodak'd.
casey2
Or YouTube. Short form animation was the largest draw of views in the early days before they chose to kill it and become a "serious platform"
jonbiggums22
I thought the kept incentivizing longer content so they could cram more ads into the videos. Hard to get some one to watch a 20 second ad for a 2 minute video, but if you can convince everyone to pad that thing up to 10 minutes you could stuff at least 2 ads in there.
ryankrage77
I got addicted to YT shorts for a little while, but I've mostly stopped doomscrolling now as, counter-intuitively, it wasn't addictive enough to keep me engaged. Sure, the first few dozen hours the carefully designed feedback loop keeps you engaged, and then... it wore off, at least for me. The algorithm seemed more interested in pushing what was popular than what I was interested in. I tried gaming it by quickly scrolling past things I didn't care about or had already seen a million times (like those retention farming 3-second loops of reddit/twitter screenshots), and hanging around on stuff I liked, but it didn't seem to budge the needle.
I guess it's a lot like real drugs - you build a tolerance and you need a bigger dose to get the same effect. In this case, no bigger dose is available.
seydor
I m more annoyed that everything is in portrait.
But yeah, there's a dehumanization going on. Speeding up videos to deliver the maximum words per second to the viewer is inhuman. It started as an appeal to ADHD children, but i that meme is overdone, people actually do have attention and still interested in humans, not just what they say.
reddit_clone
I am getting annoyed at this accelerated speech shorts and move on to something else. Especially watching recipes.
Somehow the breathless speech pattern they all adopt is really irritating to me. Thats saying something coming from an ADHD person.
mrtksn
Yea, because it's a superior format.
I love YouTube but my problem with the content of YouTube is that almost all videos are introducing you to everything every time.
For example, there's this science video about this interesting property of fire right? They start with what's fire, when it was invented, what led to be studied this way and then they deliver the money shot. It is O.K. to be introduced to a topic once but it is brain wrecking to be 101ed every time. They are doing it to increase the watch time and the ad revenue and its horrible.
Forcing the videos to be short makes them deliver the gist quickly, TikTok videos that are trying to the introduction 101 thing are just as horrible, when a video is over 1min I'm very skeptical and feel the urge to move on.
Of course in-depth videos need to be long but those are not that many actually. From the pop-sci genre Veritasuim does it well but that kind of production takes long time and they publish videos every now and then. With the race to pump videos as quickly as possible, the short format is the better since you can get the content quickly and if you want to know more about it you can actually read about it. Which is how you actually learn anything BTW.
janalsncm
This is called “fluff” which I feel is too nice a term for how annoying it is.
Start with a clickbait question, then give a complete history ripped off of Wikipedia, then by the end they don’t even fully answer the question. Very frustrating.
skizm
Wadsworth Constant. Skip to 30% of any video that seems like they're dragging out the intro.
NooneAtAll3
I want to note that culture has been shaped by recommendation algorithm looong before tiktok...
First time I noticed that was "we are number one" meme in autumn 2016
miladyincontrol
Much as many insist they dont and will never use AI, all too many let their entire media feeds, if not their whole personality be defined by `recommendation_watchnext.serve()`
FjordWarden
> The irony, of course, is that if you've read this far, it may mean you’ve already mastered a rare skill: sustained attention in a world of distraction.
No, sorry I read the first and last sentence. This is why I like the short format more then the long forms, it often boils down to the same clever narrative trickery without waisting 3 hours of your life.
righthand
So you didn’t read that far then. You intentionally skipped it because you assumed to know the value. However by skipping the article you didn’t gain any value and hence why you’re in the comments section trying to “gotcha” the author of the article. You missed the point entirely and not as clever as you think.
It did not take me 3 hours to read that article.
Too simple of a narrative. At the same time, YouTube videos are getting longer, and people are watching more YouTube videos on TVs than on mobile devices:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradadgate/2025/02/12/launched-...
So I think we're seeing more of a bifurcation: in-depth longform videos are becoming 30, 40, 60, even 90 minutes long, whereas anything shorter than 10 minutes is being compressed to 30-60 seconds. The most popular video creators are doing both; even MrBeast routinely has videos over 30 minutes long.