I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud
653 comments
·March 24, 2025dorfsmay
tzs
I had sort of the opposite situation. I needed a new washer and all the top rated ones according to Consumer Reports included WiFi. I asked at Home Depot if the one I was thinking of getting, an LG WM3400CW, required me to actually use the WiFi and they said no.
I used it for a few weeks without ever even trying to set up WiFi and everything was fine.
Then I found at that when you set up an LG washer for WiFi you can get reports in the app of water and energy use. I'd actually like that, so decided to give it WiFi access.
I then found out that the WM3400CW does in fact not have WiFi. I think it might be the only current LG washing machine that does not have WiFi.
I suspect that Consumer Reports got confused because it does have LG's "Smart Diagnosis" feature, which gives you diagnostic reports in the LG app.
The way "Smart Diagnosis" in the app works with the WM3400CW is that the washing machine sends the data to the app acoustically. Press the button sequence to start a diagnosis on the washing machine and it sounds very similar to an old analog modem. The app listens to that with your phone's microphone.
schobi
Wouldn't it be great if a universal standard existed for devices sending their diagnosis via audio?
If there is a microcontroller and a beeper in there anyway, at only the extra cost of internal memory? Instead of a modem-type modulation and a speaker, make use of the bare minimum piezo beepers and send something that is universally understood? All of that without FCC, no extra hardware cost, no backchannel und thus little security considerations?
Yea - I know. Works much better to upsell "wifi enabled" and I'm happy that the appliances only beep rarely.
tzs
That reminds me of another thing I wish was a universal standard for major appliances.
I’d like to see them all have a USB port. If you plug in a thumb drive the appliance should create a directory named with the appliance manufacturer and model and serial number. In that directory it should place a copy of its manual and other documents that normally come with it.
DanielHB
An appliance could just have blutooth so it can connect to an app on your phone. With the machine not having a direct internet connection, the app can collect diagnostics, metrics and do software updates. Require you to press a button in the machine to pair it to your phone.
99% of the functionality with 0 annoyance and ~0 security/privacy risks.
jpalomaki
Or flashing led and use mobile phone camera to scan it.
Back in the days infrared connection was a thing. I remember connecting my Compaq iPAQ PDA to Nokia phone.
Wonder if the modern cellphone cameras are fast enough to act as receiver and if this supported one way communication.
smolder
How about a wifi feature that is useful on a LAN and doesn't need 'the cloud'? The annoying part of wifi appliances is that network connectivity almost always means phoning home to some server on WAN. Home routers or a separate box on LAN ought to have functionality to be the bridge between appliances and client devices instead. That's a standard I'd rather see.
TuringTest
> Yea - I know. Works much better to upsell "wifi enabled"
A good marketer could give a catchy name to sell the advantages of that system too. Top of my head I can think of "near-fi", but certainly could be done better.
andylynch
This reminds me that Fischer & washing machines have an Easter egg where they can use that beeper to play God Defend New Zealand.
franktankbank
Or just codes that you can look up. Most washers have a small LCD screen capable of displaying two digits.
GrumpyNl
Bluetooth comes to mind.
culturestate
> The way "Smart Diagnosis" in the app works with the WM3400CW is that the washing machine sends the data to the app acoustically.
My LG microwave has this too; it wasn't a selling point for me, but I thought it was a nice compromise by their engineers and product team.
sureIy
This sounds like great use of technology if you ask me. The only thing I'd complain about is that data would not be E2E encrypted :)
UnlockedSecrets
In terms of a threat-risk analysis, the need of a physical microphone nearby i imagine more than makes up for the risk of an adversary knowing your water quality and electrical consumption as measured by your washer in almost everyones lives atleast..
8n4vidtmkvmk
Why can't it be E2E encrypted? If you can encode data on sound waves, surely you can encode encrypted data on sound waves.
bee_rider
Seems like it’d be a good application for Bluetooth.
exabrial
Literally none of that requires cloud access though to accomplish that task.
exabrial
And apologies, my frustration isn't directed at you
OkGoDoIt
That sounds perfect. This needs to go on a list for the next time I need to replace a dishwasher.
dorfsmay
Smart diagnostic sounds good but make it available via Bluetooth or make the dishwasher run a webserver on the local lan.
Having to go through their site and their auth means they ultimately control the appliance I paid full price for.
i2shar
Why not just use Bluetooth? I'd be suspicious if the Dishwasher app requested permission to access the phone's microphone
colechristensen
You can implement an audio modem with much dumber hardware and it would be cheaper and less vulnerable to nonsense, especially if all you're sending is a few bytes. Then you also don't need to do FCC certification. Seriously bitbanging an audio modem to broadcast error codes from a $0.20 BOM microcontroller and a little buzzer speaker would be a fun project to give to a summer intern. (If anyone wants to believe a highly falsified resume and would believe I'm 15 years younger, I'd be happy to join your company for the summer :D <sadly not really> )
vasco
For energy usage, a metering plug on the same outlet you use is very cheap. For water, just take the bendy pipe and put it onto a big container and see how much water it uses. It shouldn't change much so you do it once. Wifi and the whole cloud for this seems weird.
fransje26
I will high-jack this top-rated comment to link to a comment further below.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297
This comment has a link to [0], explaining, in plain text:
However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.
kevincox
> They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key
What does my offline dishwasher need a long-lived authorization key for?
a_paddy
I assume only if you're setting it up to work "offline" with the app. Issuing a key pair to the hardware and the app from their ecosystem's trusted authority does seem like a secure way to do it.
lmz
Maybe it has some embargoed technology and needs to make sure it's not in China or something.
thih9
Cool. I’d still prefer a “no wifi” or even “no app” mode, and control everything via hardware buttons.
Hardware offline UX gives me hope that my data would not be sold or that I wouldn’t have to pay for an extra subscription or watch ads. Perhaps it’s correlation.
Still, “no cloud” is a step in the right direction; I’ll take it.
js2
Jeff mentions it in the post:
> Another third option is somebody has reverse engineered this protocol and built HCPY, a Home Connect Python library.
> But here's the problem: I already spent like four hours getting this dishwasher installed in my kitchen. I don't want to spend another four hours configuring my own web UI for it—which still requires at least a one-time connection through Home Connect!—and maintaining that as a service on my local network, relying on an unauthorized third party library using reverse-engineering to get at the private dishwasher API!
JohnFen
That's an improvement, but the requirement to use an app is still a serious problem, even if it never phones home. Everything should be able to be done on the appliance itself. Installing an app should never be a requirement.
pkulak
I disagree. Moving stuff to an API with full local control is a UI decision. Moving it to the cloud is a privacy and obsolescence decision. Huge difference.
DavideNL
...how long is "long-live" ?
We've all been there. It works, until the shareholders decide differently, and you can no longer use your dishwasher without connecting / agreeing to the terms.
fransje26
The shareholder of Bosch is, with 94% of the shares, the Robert Bosch Foundation. Look it up to see what they do.
null
pashadee
“ In no-cloud mode the only way to interact with the devices is through their app, and an app isn’t always the most convenient way to interact with devices in the home.”
bonzini
Note that it is "the only way to interact remotely". That is, no cloud mode disables interaction with e.g. Home Assistant but not interaction with the buttons.
consp
> I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone.
Don't know where you are but in most countries that would be a valid reason to return it at any time you found it out. They lied to get your money, willfully is almost never a requirement.
kube-system
Yeah, misrepresentation is basic contract law stuff that would be generally valid in the US too, but:
1. there's probably no evidence of it
2. the workers at the store will deny it
3. the workers at the store likely have no grasp of contract law and will insist on whatever their store policy is
4. hiring a lawyer to return a dishwasher is a waste of time for most anyone knowledgable enough to know that this is a valid legal issue
theturtletalks
I will never buy anything Bosch again after reading this thread. What other reason could Bosch have for hiding this functionality behind a website and user account if not to monetize it down the line or worse, bring more of the functionality behind a paywall. We already saw what happened with HP charging to print and even the recent Chromecast outage where something that should be handled locally is pinging back to Google and then working.
fluidcruft
He asked for no wifi, was sold a no wifi dishwasher and then later changed his mind and wanted wifi after installing it. Where's the misrepresentation?
colechristensen
Most retailers just have a standard return policy, it's a good idea to choose where you purchase a major appliance where you know the return policy.
For Costco it's 90 days for a major appliance, you don't have to justify yourself as to why. Some stores have terrible return policies, some have good enough policies.
fortran77
Usually contracts say that the entire contract is contained within the four corners of the document and anything the salesman tells you isn’t a contract.
dorfsmay
Bought from a dealership. I don't think he lied, I think he just didn't know about "advanced functions".
I never got the "no need for wifi" in written form.
nextts
Bosch knows how to perfect asshole design.
On some of their ovens there is a secret key sequence (like game cheat) to get the buttons working again. Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this. Or have a defunct oven.
But it is not public info they have released (but had been leaked on YT)
So they have software with a bug and a workaround they won't tell you about. Ideally they should recall these ovens and pay for a replacement install.
throwaway2037
> Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this.
publicmail
My favorite is my Bosh wall oven that uses 85C rated capacitors with practically no voltage derating for the control board that sits directly at the top of the oven. After 4 years, they gave out causing the display to dim to the point of invisibility.
We’re talking about 50 cents of part savings on a $3000+ appliance here.
Replaced them myself easily, but most people will end up having to call for service and end up replacing the entire board for hundreds of dollars minimum.
publicmail
Actually no - I forgot about my Bosch dishwasher that uses capacitive touch buttons. Great idea for something that is often touched with wet fingers…
WuxiFingerHold
I don't believe this. It's illegal in many countries. No way a large German (after Dieselgate they all are very cautious) company like Bosch would make such a stupid move. If they did they'd face countless lawsuits and a ban in many countries (first would be the USA).
account42
I bet you would have said the same about VW before Dieselgate.
nextts
Not saying it was intentional
colechristensen
The only thing I have ever heard about Bosch major appliances is that people hate them.
tsukikage
> Bosch knows how to perfect asshole design.
This is actually pretty low on the asshole scale.
Consider: dishwashing-as-a-service subscription model. You get the dishwasher chemicals in the post - the dishwasher automatically requests the next lot when it feels like it - and there's cover for repairs; for this you can either pay a regular fee or make in-app purchases of WashCoin, which you then spend when you need to wash the dishes. Maybe add a gacha mode to the app to win bonus wash / rinse / self-clean cycles.
raverbashing
Stupid question but have you tried turning it off and on for a while?
It might be something simpler
nextts
Yep
averageRoyalty
In Australia you're not required to keep the packaging, and the company you bought it from must cover your shipping costs. This would constitute a Major Problem[1].
1. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/problem-with-a-product-or-...
teruakohatu
That is a really good system you have over there.
I suspect the company would just respond “the dishwasher is working fine the owner just refuses to enable features as per the manual”.
nextts
Take them to court then! Get a group action or just small claims it. Do a CC charge back. They really can't deliver garbage.
In 10 years that appliance may not connect to your wifi if the scheme has changed e.g. 2.4Ghz is dropped or something.
dylan604
<absoluteTotalTangent>
I read Australia<snip>Major Problem, and I immediately had the Koxbox track pop into my head. Naturally, it's easiest to find it on YT[0]. I never did take the time to look up where the sample came from, not what the full audio would say. I just assumed that Australians dutifully ignored it when heard as much as 'murikans ignored the FBI warnings at the head of VHS tapes--later DVDs.
[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7IW3Or590
</absoluteTotalTangent>
peterldowns
bit of a banger, thanks for the recommendation
ano-ther
Oh yes. Got an e-bike with a Bosch controller. Have to click away the app advertisement every time before I can use the bike. And the app requires registration. I have the strong suspicion that as soon as I do that, the bike will only work with my phone and start locking out my family members from using it.
Filligree
Other way around. They'll try to upsell you on a 5 euro feature that locks the bike to your phone and prevents family members (or thieves) from using it. Though since almost no ebikes do that, it doesn't work to reduce theft.
Not much point in the app unless you want to transfer routes to a map app on the head unit, though.
consp
Like with some cars, they then get sold for parts or there is a hack to work around it. I just put a gps tracker in the battery to get insurance money since the cops will do nothing (but will if you go after you own bike to stop you from trespassing).
hyperman1
My bosch ebike controller is a very lousy timekeeper, and the only way to set the clock is with an app.
boringg
Totally different experience. Bosch dish washer 800 series - fantastic, clean and quiet. No need for wireless if i don’t want it and no blocked features.
Have other appliances - well made, sturdy and made to last. I wont say it was the cheapest option but i typically pay for a balance of quality, value and privacy.
fransje26
Yes, but that's the $400-more-expensive model they mention in the article, with the 7 segment display. Which is a model at least 40% more expensive than the 500 series they bought.
boringg
Yup you are correct. I agree with article thats BS to gate keep functionality through cloud access requirements and boy am I happy that I bought the 800 series. That said I don't like contributing to the business model of paying for privacy - seems broken.
LinuxBender
I just had a similar issue with action cameras. My options are GoPro overheats and short battery life, DJI app banned in the store that I would not use regardless, insta360 / akaso which appear to both be the same shell companies and their camera can't even activate without an app despite the vendor promising otherwise. Returned and one starred all that junk. I would like to find a true stand-alone professional fully functional action camera with stabilization, long battery life and built by pros. Without exception I will not use anything that requires a phone or wifi and I don't care how big it is. Even if it's a 200,000 pound excavator, it will be on their doorstep if it requires a phone or wifi some are going this direction and one way or another they will be paying for shipping and my time.
klipklop
I feel Jeff should have bit the bullet and just returned it. I know it's a waste of time, but these products have to be rejected at retail. Retailers will eventually get tired of the extra support burden and demand manufacturers drop stuff like this.
They should all get hit with the open box problem from the returns.
geerlingguy
I'd love to take a stance like that, but the reality is I've already sunk about 6 hours total into the whole operation, and I have quite limited time for my home maintenance + improvement projects as it is (my bench currently has a new faucet set to fix the leaky bathroom faucet, as well as an exhaust fan to fix the broken one in our bathroom... and those are just the things that are currently broken, not the dozen or so routine maintenance things I am behind on otherwise!).
If taking a stand means sacrificing another 2-4 hours (and wrangling that dumb dishwasher back into the minivan, probably with some water spilling out this time, causing more pain since it'll cause minivan issues lol), I don't know if I have the time for it.
That also assumes I can find a suitable replacement unit (and wrangle it, and install it) without seriously disrupting the dish-handling routine in the house for another day or three!
Sadly, that means Bosch wins this time. But if I never buy another Bosch device again (I have one of their water heaters, and a fancy ear thermometer that I rather liked...), maybe they will lose in the long run.
Plus, now I have a long-term project to hack my dishwasher.
AceJohnny2
There has to be some backpressure on the supply chain. I appreciate that you used your clout to make the issue public, but sometimes I worry that it only goes so far as our little echo chamber.
geerlingguy
If it's any consolation, the video I posted on YouTube is getting some traction.
If it can get a good number of views, maybe it can at least generate enough impact to cut off a few hundred units of sales. That won't make a massive impact, but it's better than nothing.
If Bosch allowed me to update the firmware of my unit to not lock out features, I'd maybe consider doing that locally over an ad-hoc connection. Wish they would've just included Zigbee, Z-Wave, or Matter instead.
timcobb
> There has to be some backpressure on the supply chain
Sure it would be nice, but just like all things, not to be pessimistic or fatalistic—the HN rejection of something doesn't practically matter to most companies. I mean, why is it is that Steve Bannon is the loudest voice against technofeudalism today? Why can't we get louder and get other people listening?
__MatrixMan__
Make stickers and go put them on the units at the store. Send Bosch a picture of how you've improved their labeling along with a nice note indicating that you'll do it again if they don't change their ways.
h0l0cube
Perhaps there's an opening in the market for an appliance company that brands itself on self-repair and self-hosted connectivity? All most people want is "push button and do the thing as long as I live".
PaulDavisThe1st
I want to know what dishwasher and washing machine Marques Brownlee (mkbhd) uses, and to know that is going to use his clout in this regard ... not to burden him, but he has almost 20M subscribers on YT ...
dredmorbius
Assuming you're American, your state's attorney general office is responsible for consumer complaints.
It's free to file an issue, and in most cases you'll get a direct response. The issue here is product fails to perform as expected, and resolution is that the manufacturer remove the unit at their cost and give you a full refund.
Arranging an alternative purchase is your issue.
And contact your local news media as well. They love stories, particularly if there's existing footage they can air. VNRs (video news releases), the original "fake news" became a hot item in the 1990s Because Reasons. And you've already got the footage and audio.
kevin_thibedeau
Dishwasher electronics are subject to elevated heat and humidity levels. A DIY solution will be extremely unreliable. An amateurish job on the power electronics can be a fire hazard and will void any insurance policy if they find out what you did.
flandry93
Funny how there is always someone who posts "you do X, and you will fail", and then follow up with "you will get hurt and/or hurt others" and then "we will punish you for trying". Like they work for the corporation, to spread the message of hopelessness. Embrace the tyranny of fate!
Maybe someone who is skillful enough to be able to DIY a micro-controller will also think about these issues and deal with them too? Or is that too hard to imagine?
hedgehog
The "control board" which has all the high voltage stuff is totally separate from the computer. What Jeff wants to is totally reasonable, if a bit annoying because the computer bit is installed inside the door rather than externally accessible like the control board.
dns_snek
> will void any insurance policy if they find out what you did.
That sounds draconian, do you have any examples of home insurance policies that do this? Is this common in reality?
LocalH
The world used to be driven by DIY. Now, people are afraid of it (or advocate against it) in some way. What changed?
fransje26
Please have a look at this comment:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297
It's linking to a website with the following explanation:
However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.fransje26
> the reality is I've already sunk about 6 hours total into the whole operation
That's a bit of a sunken-cost fallacy.
Here is a device that is going to be used every day for the coming 5 to 10 years, with a least 3 useful functions that cannot be accessed, and it's going to annoy you every time you use it.
Some devices simply have to work without friction, and that is worth spending home maintenance time on (and our hard-earned cash). Dishwashers, washing machines, printers..
Life is too short to waste time and energy on those, and I would argue that the energy, time, friction and annoyance you are probably going to encounter on the lifetime of that device is probably more than the 6 extra hours that would have been spent returning this unit.
Just my 2c, from the sideline, not walking in your shoes.
valiant55
Jeff has 5 kids (mentioned in the video). I'm surprised he had 6 hours to fluff around with a dishwasher in the first place. I have 2 and certainly am careful about how I spend any free time I manage to find.
hedgehog
For what it's worth I have an 800 series and it also made some features like delay start app-only. Even if I was ok with that it's still a terrible design for a multi-person household. See also: cars that are going app-only for remote start.
agilob
>If taking a stand means sacrificing another 2-4 hours
>Plus, now I have a long-term project to hack my dishwasher.
So you'd rather waste more time, probably days or weeks, on a hack where Bosch can change implementation anytime, than return it?
tpmoney
People will make the choices that are rational for them. When your job is making content about hacking stuff, wasting 8 hours on hacking a dishwasher that both generates content and generates useful information for other people is a better use of time than wasting 4 hours returning a dishwasher in the hopes that you personally will be the straw that breaks the IoT camel’s back.
ndsipa_pomu
Returning an appliance though will leave you without that appliance for a while. Attempting to reverse-engineer it shouldn't affect his ability to clean dishes and is also fun to do.
rkagerer
Out of curiosity, how long did 'ya spend on that blog post, the YouTube video, and various platforms reading/answering comments related to this experience?
belorn
Those products will earn profits to the producers after sale by bundling ads onto the app. Since the cost of producing the networking is less than projected sales, every unit will sooner or later have said networking and app. The app-only dishwashers will then out compete other dishwashers, slowly replacing all alternatives to app-only dishwashers outside "industry dishwashers" which will be app-free but cost 10x that of a dishwasher sold to the private consumer.
Try buy a TV without smart features. You can, but then you got to buy one intended for hotels and pay the market price for products intended for that market.
nerdponx
Bundling ads and selling data. Double revenue stream, double incentive for enshittification.
Also the marginal cost of an app is basically $0, whereas the marginal cost of hardware like buttons and 7-segment displays is >$0, so it's tempting (if you expect to sell a lot of dishwashers) to replace hardware with an app.
1propionyl
> Try buy a TV without smart features.
Easy. Just buy a dumb monitor. Why do you even need the TV tuner?
oblio
Size. I don't think you can buy a 60" monitor.
jajko
This ain't true at all. Do you have public no-password wifi? I presume not, then just don't enter wifi password in it and voila, no ads, no smart features, just plug that HDMI cable, switch input and run whatever you need from it for next 10 years.
But if you have the idea you want internet-connected TV but somehow 'not smart' (not even understanding what it means) but without ads then yeah good luck, they are baked into OS even if manufacturer didn't want them. And there is no such manufacturer I know of.
Although, I have cheap 75" TCL one and the only ads I see in past 2 years are those youtube itself inserts, while using all default apps that came with it (plus VLC for more video formats and generally better player). What other ads areas are there?
wrasee
Have to agree. The bottom line is that manufactures will continue to pull this trick as long as consumers keep buying. Even Jeff himself says that
> I don't think we should let vendors get away with this stuff.
But he _did_ let the vendor get away with it. That’s exactly what he did. He even spent a significant part of the article anticipating the push back by trying to reason why in his case he felt justified in doing so (because he’s busy, because he couldn’t wait a few days hand washing, because of family constraints), but presumably.. you shouldn’t?
So I don’t get it. It’s precisely the “do as I say, not as I do” that we have this problem. There is an immediate benefit to the saying part, on social media, the social signalling, etc (especially immediate for a YouTuber), but not so much for the doing part.
And I say that as largely a supporter, Jeff Geerling seems to be one of the good guys. Which I guess is why we are where we are?
Aissen
I can hear Jeff's argument (in this very thread), that as a video creator, taking a public stance is an already impactful way to put pressure on the manufacturer. That's leverage enough for him.
wrasee
Last comment, promise.
I think there may even be an argument that a stance like this can do more damage than good. It may actually normalize the view that it's sufficient to promote on social media but ultimately take no action. There's a danger of furthering a sense of complacency where we want to do the right thing, but where sufficiency in "the right thing" has been normalized down to a grumble and a tweet rather than to actually take real action at any real personal cost.
Alternatively put, if everyone else doesn't do the hard bit, why should I?
Consider real leadership that makes the hard choices and leads by example. You see a friend step up against something at cost to them, and it's that what motivates you to join them. Leading by example is what motivates people.
I think it would have been so much more effective if Jeff returned the dishwasher. People see that personal cost and it _means something_. Otherwise why bother? I mean, that's what Jeff does, right?
wrasee
Yes, his replies in a neighbor comment is exactly to that effect and of course one has to agree. But it is also notable that if i dare summarise from his parallel comment, he would have loved to return the dishwasher too but that this has already cost him so much time that “I don't know if I have the time for it.”
So here's the thing. It would be unfairly cynical to suggest that Jeff is only doing this to further his own content as a content creator. I think most would agree that Jeff is also frustrated by this and wants to push back. And as someone with influence any impact he can make is undoubtedly a good thing. It's even easier to say nothing at all.
But it is also hard to separate out to what degree the motivation to put in the effort to write an article, produce and edit a video stems from the desire for content and what stems for the desire for real change. It is somewhat telling that he had the time and motivation to produce the video (which is also a ton of work), but not to return the dishwasher?
Real advocacy has to go beyond influencers promoting causes that already align with their target audience. We have to go beyond just saying things on social media in the belief that that is somehow sufficient to "do our bit". Otherwise we can kid ourselves that we're doing good, when are we really, really? Real advocacy requires real change, and that's the hard bit.
sitkack
I agree.
And Consumer Reports (which I am a "member") needs to call them out and hard for this.
loteck
Jeff's opposition to this technology is not based on principle, rather it is based on the question of convenience of a few hours of time. A lot of commenters reacting to this story based on principle should take note of how many others gripe but roll over for it. Certainly, vendors are taking note of that.
geerlingguy
My hope—which has been borne out by some correspondence I've already gotten today—is that some other consumers may be spared the experience I had.
Since I have a tiny bit of reach online, I figured I'd use it FWIW to maybe impact Bosch's sales by like 0.000001%. Because that's better than 0.000000001% :)
criddell
We are going to be replacing our dishwasher in the next year and Bosch is off my list for now. I’m a little afraid I’ll find out that a dishwasher wanting engagement is the new normal.
Our current dishwasher is a GE and it does a great job washing dishes, but has developed a few quirks that leads me to believe we are living on borrowed time.
1over137
>but these products have to be rejected at retail
That only works if other options don't have these requirements.
Having recently bought new appliances, they almost all have some features gated behind "the cloud".
Even many exhaust fans (that go above your stove) have wifi now!
aaronax
I sooooo want to return our Ninja Creami Deluxe, recently purchased at Costco. If it sits for ~ an hour or more after use then it cannot be turned on again until unplugged and plugged back in to the wall. From Googling, it seems that Ninja started out doing warranty replacements for the issue but now have shifted to "its a safety feature".
I know it would be super easy to return or exchange at Costco. But my spouse likes it, I am pretty certain that any replacement unit is going to have the exact same issue, and it was a pretty good price.
I'm sorry for being a bad consumer!
chrsw
I'm not sure there's enough consumers to fight back against this. Most consumers are too focused on other things to worry about being locked in or screwed over by appliance companies. Acceptance.
btbuildem
One thing I've learned when buying a full set of appliances couple of years ago: don't read consumer reports or reviews by randos on the internet -- instead, go to industry literature, and read reports by/for service and warranty providers. They have actual hard data on the types and frequency of problems across brands and models.
But back to the main theme of the article: hell to the no was my initial attitude, and I went out of my way to make sure my appliances were as simple as possible. Still, three out of the five were "wifi-enabled" and promised a world of app-enhanced wonders. Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near being set up, and I think I am lucky, all the normal, expected appliance features work without requiring these extras.
The idea of remotely preheating my oven while I am not home still makes me shudder.
nikcub
Download and read the manual before buying a product. I avoided buying an air filter recently because the manual made it clear that there was no auto mode, which I would have expected at the price.
Downloading the manual may have helped Jeff dodge this product.
Web search has become a nightmare for consumer purchase research - it's all affiliate driven. Even the old traditional trusted names are just phoning it in with affiliate content churn.
odysseus
Where can you find these service/warranty reports?
btbuildem
It's been a while, so these may be out of date:
- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide
- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...
- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...
Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.
MetaWhirledPeas
That first link lists Bosch as the #1 recommended dishwasher by technicians, haha.
Thanks for the links though.
paradox460
The best friend you can make is an appliance repair man. Ask him which brands are good and which bad, and you'll rarely be steered awry
alt227
I asked the local appliance repair man which was the best brand for kitchen appliance reliability and he said Bosch.
addandsubtract
Isn't the best appliance one that a repair man hasn't heard of?
m463
> Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near being set up,
I have an LG soundbar never set up, or connected to any wifi.
and when my phone gets near it, it asks to connect to an airplay device.
I think that might be a fatal flaw to even getting a wifi enabled device - maybe someone in the adjacent apartment can do the initial setup if you didn't.
hopefully these devices have a physical component to initial setup, and are not succeptible to denial-of-service type attacks.
leonidasv
I live in an apartment. When I go to my living room, a pop-up shows on my phone (Samsung Galaxy) asking if I want to connect to a Samsung TV and cast my phone.
The catch is: I don't have any Samsung TV in my home. It's the neighbours TV. It happened even when my Bluetooth was disabled, somehow the phone still reached the TV wirelessly.
Thank God there's a setting to turn this "feature" off.
account42
I have a Samsung TV (never connected to the the internet in any form, just connected to my PC via HDMI) and a Samsung phone and never had either ask anything about the other. Curious what would trigger that. Possible that I disabled things I know I won't need and forgot about it.
atoav
I have wifi enables debices that I decided to build myself because in that market segment nobody offered a no-bullshit option that works with home-assistant.
Izkata
> The idea of remotely preheating my oven while I am not home still makes me shudder.
Electric ovens can be terrifying when they fail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrL_9K7rCz8
Mine was throwing a lot more sparks than in this video. It sounded like fireworks were going off in my kitchen.
account42
What's the failure mode here? Heating coil making contact with the outer casing? Shouldn't that be caught by a residual-current circuit breaker?
In any case, generating lots of heat inside the oven is probably safer than doing it outside it.
saltcured
That looks like a fractured heating element that now identifies as a welder.
brikym
Where do you find this data? The average person is going to use Google and because Google sucks they'll end up on some shill review site.
btbuildem
It's been a while, so these may be out of date:
- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide
- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...
- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...
Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.
jjice
> don't read consumer reports or reviews by randos on the internet
I like the idea of using industry literature, but I think consumer reviews have value too. Much smaller purchase, but I was considering a new travel thermos and all the professional review were praising it. As soon as I pulled up some consumer reviews though, it was almost universal that after washing it for the first time, it smelled of garlic and soy sauce. Apparently this issue was around for at least three years (into today).
Not sure why that got passed over by all the professionals (maybe a lack of time spent with the product), but I was glad I read the consumer reviews as well.
account42
I don't gp was suggesting to trust professional reviewers but rather professionals who actually have to work with/repair the product in question.
But I do agree that that won't cover everything. Issues that need repair are a big concern but so is usability when the damned things are working "properly".
tchalla
It would help if you’d have posted an example of reports for service and warranty.
btbuildem
It's been a while, so these may be out of date:
- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide
- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...
- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...
Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.
jmholla
> When I posted on social media about this, a lot of people told me to return it.
>
> But I spent four hours installing this thing built into my kitchen.
I sympathize with the author and what Bosch is doing here is ridiculous and I am fully against it.
But, they're not going to care about your complaints. Returning it and hitting them in the pocketbook is really the only way consumers have to send messages that companies hear.
It's a pain, but if you truly care about this, you, sadly, have to put in extra effort to fight back.
_carbyau_
If someone has "influencer" power they could drag it into the back yard and light it on fire for a Youtube video.
See how Bosch likes the power of web ads.
kulahan
If your audience is big enough, your complaints can end up hitting their pocket book.
dawnerd
Exactly. I'm in the market for a Dishwasher and was highly considering a Bosch based on all the positive reviews from CR and such. Now I'm not considering them at all.
nerdponx
Shame on CR for not calling this out. I've become a little mistrustful of them in recent years after having not-great experiences with their high-rated products, and great experiences with products that they didn't rate at all. This adds to my mistrust.
lmm
Evidently his complaint is worth less than the amount of effort to return the dishwasher, so it can't be worth that much.
lukeschlather
Return and replace. Which counting installation costs approaches the value of the dishwasher.
r0ckarong
Isn't it kind of silly going "YOU fix this problem I'm complaining about" in the first place? If he isn't willing to return the machine, why would anyone else bother?
monksy
You can also look up their board's email addresses and send a complaint direct to them.
sitkack
I look forward to Jeff inserting a "Bosch Sux" interstitial into his Youtube videos.
jart
Jeff, you left out the juiciest part of the story, which is that the Bosch Home Connect iPhone app hoovers up your Search History data. Anyone know how much that data is worth? I made the same mistake of buying the 500 and it's just so ridiculous that I need to reveal my most intimate Google moments to a dishwasher in order to use its advanced features which I won't. When I was building Internet technology in the 1990s and optimistic about the future, never in my fiercest nightmares could I have predicted that this is how normies would use it and that it'd be considered normal. What kind of monster do you have to be to use home appliances as leverage to spy on people? There seriously needs to be a different planet for people like us.
perch56
There's a bit of a mix-up here. The “Search History Data – Not Linked with You” label you see on the App Store refers only to the searches you perform within the Home Connect app—not your full Google search history. Given that iOS apps run in a sandboxed environment, there's no way for the app to access your Google account. It’s a standard practice among smart home devices to enhance functionality, not to spy on your entire digital life.
bandrami
I live in an apartment building whose walls don't really attenuate RF at all. And like most of the building I have a Samsung "smart" TV. So most evenings I get three or four screencast requests from neighbors' phones that I have to deny. That's annoying enough but it also stops whatever I'm watching in the process.
The manual didn't include instructions for turning off Bluetooth, and when I called Samsung they said you in fact can't turn it off. I could simply pull the antenna, I guess, but it seems to be integrated with the WiFi so then I couldn't watch any streaming.
I ended up changing the BT device name to "STOP USING THIS ONE" but apparently nobody reads it because I still get the connection requests daily.
dewey
I’d probably just turn off Bluetooth / WiFi and get a setup box like Apple TV, Roku etc. which usually is much nicer than the TV OS anyway. The only time I’m interacting with my TVs UI is when I’m switching input channels.
vanc_cefepime
Ditto. AppleTV or Nvidia Shield (with custom launcher). Personally, I'm now in with AppleTV. I had two Shields and hated when they pushed an update a few years ago to stock android that pushed ads (to services I didn't subscribe to) and that was it for me. There werent as many custom launchers as there are nowadays, but still, went to AppleTv and have been happy. That said, I'd stay clear with Roku with their latest shenanigans as they continue to test their customer's limits with ads now on their home screen [1]. Granted this is on their TV sets, I would still stay clear of their dedicated set-top boxes as it's only a matter of time when they push their limits there too [2].
[1] <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/03/roku-says-unpopular-...>
felindev
LTT made a video [0] where they tried "5G blocking paint" in real world scenario, this is always an option if you like black.
Terr_
> I live in an apartment building whose walls don't really attenuate RF at all.
I wonder if there's a market for special panels that block sound and common wifi/bluetooth bands...
> So most evenings I get three or four screencast requests from neighbors' phones that I have to deny. That's annoying enough but it also stops whatever I'm watching in the process.
I'd be tempted to call support every single time, and feign that I simply can't understand why their product that I purchased keeps breaking...
smileybarry
I reinstalled a BLE inspect app to troubleshoot something, and I was shocked at the sheer amount of Samsung TVs (and I own none) I had to wade through to find my device. The fact they're all in discoverable mode at all times makes opening my regular Bluetooth just as bad, too.
poincaredisk
>So most evenings I get three or four screencast requests from neighbors' phones that I have to deny
What happens if you accept it? Do you just see your neighbors screen? This sounds like something terrifying enough to convince your neighbors to pay attention.
null
ghssds
Did you try to talk to your neighbours?
bandrami
I have no way of knowing which one it is, and I can't get to the floors above and below mine
cocoto
Simply rename the device “malware” at this point.
mock-possum
It wouldn’t make a difference
Terr_
Hmmm, if only there was some actual malware exploit which would configure "victim" devices so that they would never connect to something of the exact same bluetooth/wifi name ever again.
Then you could pick an improbable name and run a rather spicy honeypot for a while,, until there's no more activity. Then it'd be safe to turn it off and bring the real device online.
Hackbraten
Required reading: Unauthorized Bread by Cory Doctorow (excerpt: [0]; part of his book Radicalized [1])
[0]: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalized_%28Doctorow_book%2...
jmkni
Or the poor mans version, "Please drink verification can" - http://i.imgur.com/dgGvgKF.png
user9999999999
reminds me of some dystopian short story I read somewhere, where society moves to a nearly full advertising economy, and everyone has to be an influencer about all the food / things they consume for the day, streaming themselves on camera live 24/7
nkurz
I recently bought and installed the same dishwasher. I also don't like the app requirement to access some features. But contrary to some of the other comments, I feel the need point out that it's still a fully functional dishwasher even if you never connect it to Wifi.
You will miss out on a few "advanced" features, but it washes dishes really well. I read the manual before I bought it, and I got the performance I expected. I would have preferred to have access to a rinse cycle and a cleaning mode, but I don't need them. It definitely gets my dishes much cleaner than the old failing one I replaced, and I have no complaints so far about its performance.
A few more notes while I'm here:
Yes, partially unscrew the front legs with a wrench before you put it in place. They are too tight. Partially adjust the rear leg before you put it in too. The diagram is confusing and may not adjust the leg in the direction you think it will. I wonder if this is what happened to Jeff.
The dishwasher apparently will refuse to connect to a Wifi network without a password. For mostly philosophical reasons I don't want to add a password to my network, and this is part of the reason I haven't connected it.
Note that the Costco version (at least in my area) is a subtly different model that does not include the automatic door opening "Auto Air" feature. Since this is one of the best features of this model, you should not buy it from Costco unless you verify it comes with this.
The "touchless" buttons are annoying. It frequently beeps and comes to life when I'm just trying to open the door. The interface as a whole isn't great, and I sometimes worry it's not set correctly. But once you figure it out, it will wash your dishes quietly and effectively.
jer0me
I'm curious—what are the philosophical reasons for not having a password on your network?
nkurz
It's a mixture of things, some philosophical and some practical.
I live in a very rural area with poor cell phone coverage. I'm happy to provide a WiFi signal for the lost people who are in front of my house trying to figure out why their GPS has led them here. We get a few each year, because Google Maps shows the road past my house going through while in reality it's closed in winter.
I also like it that I don't need to play the "what's the password" game with houseguests. I like that I don't need to input passwords to screenless devices using clumsy and slow input methods. I like the idea that the default should be sharing what you can afford to share rather than keeping everything private by except by special arrangement.
More generally, I don't think that closed networks substantially improve security and I don't like the push to require them. It's great to have the option to keep people off of your network through passwords or MAC filtering, but I don't like it being the default. I don't like technology that tries to enforce its own opinion about social norms.
Contrary to the other poster, it's not laziness. At this point it's frequently more difficult to host an open network than a password protected one. It might not be a good idea, but it's a conscious choice.
lsaferite
You could always run two wifi network SSIDs (depending on your gear I guess). Then you have the ability to have open wifi for guests, but also keep your other devices on a segregated network as an extra layer in your personal security profile.
uselesswords
These are all practical reasons, not really philosophical. Unless any form of logic is philosophical but then everything is.
If your claiming your philosophical stance is setting passwords doesn’t provide security, by your own reasoning in your case that’s just a matter of practicality. There is no philosophical argument.
> More generally, I don't think that closed networks substantially improve security and I don't like the push to require them.
I mean that’s just your opinion, not a philosophical stance, and it happens to be a empirically demonstrably false one.
> I don't like technology that tries to enforce its own opinion about social norms.
This statement is so vague it’s practically useless. It can just be selectively applied against anything you don’t like. All technology is opinionated. From the layout of your keyboard to this site, everything is shaped by and shapes social norms. It would also be an opinionated technology if it decided not to ask you to set a password by default. You might as well have said I don’t like WiFi passwords because I don’t like WiFi passwords and it would’ve carried the exact same message.
uselesswords
Gratuitously, maybe he has a device that can’t connect to WiFi network with a password. Realistically, probably just laziness. Neither of these are philosophical though…
Aurornis
> But contrary to some of the other comments, I feel the need point out that it's still a fully functional dishwasher even if you never connect it to Wifi.
Thanks. Some of the other comments are implying that they’re missing something important without WiFi but nobody seems to want to explain what’s missing.
Can you explain what features are missing without the WiFi connection?
AshamedCaptain
> It says options with an asterisk—including Rinse, Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start, are "available through Home Connect app only and depending on your model."
nerdponx
Fully functional, if you don't mind a dishwasher with less functionality than 40 years ago when the buttons were still physical locking buttons with springs.
nkurz
I think this manual page shows what's available with and without the app: https://www.manua.ls/bosch/shx65cm5n/manual?p=5
Available cycles from the buttons: Heavy, Auto, Normal, Speed 60, Favorite
Available options from the buttons: Auto Air, Sanitize
Additional cycles from the app: Rinse, Machine Care
Additional options from the app: Halfload, Eco, Delay
I believe that with the app you can set one of the additional cycles to be the "Favorite" button, but I haven't tried this.
aequitas
Seems like this Home Connect stuff does support local only/no cloud mode[0]. I recently discovered my parent's kitchen hardware is all Bosch with Home Connect and was afraid I had to run it through their cloud. But there seems to be some decent effort done in getting it to work with Home Assistant[1].
[0] https://trmm.net/homeconnect/ [1] https://github.com/hcpy2-0/hcpy
fransje26
This should really be the top answer.
From link [0]:
However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.js2
Jeff mentions it in the post:
> Another third option is somebody has reverse engineered this protocol and built HCPY, a Home Connect Python library.
> But here's the problem: I already spent like four hours getting this dishwasher installed in my kitchen. I don't want to spend another four hours configuring my own web UI for it—which still requires at least a one-time connection through Home Connect!—and maintaining that as a service on my local network, relying on an unauthorized third party library using reverse-engineering to get at the private dishwasher API!
cromka
I am seriously surprised he chose this expensive model over the IKEA model costing less than $300, which the Consumer Report ranked not much worse than this expensive Bosch in their report, the latter of which he references in his video.
Avamander
And all this stuff could work directly locally, it'd even make alternatives possible and it'd be an immensely better experience. It would eliminate the latency it takes for the requests to reach halfway across the world and back. It would also eliminate a lot of the privacy and security concerns.
What makes it worse is that these cloud connections also tend to be insecure and unreliable or both. I've seen multiple vendors (including Miele) make unencrypted connections to their cloud. (Try blocking port 80 outgoing on your firewalls.)
I've also set up a bit of monitoring for a few appliance manufacturer's clouds - these cloud services have outages all the damn time. To an extent it makes sense given that nobody is explicitly paying for them. On the other hand it's a terrible omen for the longevity of such services. (I can't wait to buy an expired appliance manufacturer's domain.)
I can't imagine a solution to this mess either besides legislation, like forcing some open access at least on EOL.
ianburrell
I'm hoping that the Matter protocol will help with local home automation. It is designed to work on the local network using IPv6 networking, with gateway between Wifi and Thread. The downside is that it is complicated from everybody involved in design.
The goal is that device companies will want to get rid of cost of developing cloud software, and effectively outsource it to Apple, Google, etc.
Avamander
Apple's tempo so far has been abysmal, so I wouldn't hold my breath. We can hope though.
ndriscoll
Unencrypted protocols basically are open access. It's easy to reverse engineer, and then you can just point the DNS address of their cloud at your server to make it work locally (or worst case hijack their IP). It's the encrypted connections that you need to be wary of.
elzbardico
By the end of the day, most kitchen and laundry appliances are a bunch of electric motors, pumps, solenoids, compressors, resistances, buttons, switches, and sensors.
If this trend continues, we will have more and more people having bricked appliances as badly designed web services are inevitably sunset, as mobile apps without updates become incompatible with new versions of their phone OS and get delisted from App Stores by the manufactures. Or then, Wi-Fi standards will change, and the appliance won't be able to connect to the network unless you keep an obsolete and by then insecure hotspot just to serve it.
Given that, I wonder if there isn't going to be a business opportunity for creating after-market appliance controllers. Just a board that you can use to replace the one that came with your appliance, but without any factory-controlled web-service nonsense.
This is already a thing for split air-conditioner units. In fact, I even saved one with such an aftermarket board.
torginus
That's why all good ol devices have electromechanical cams instead of electronics.
A bonus is that high power MOSFETs have a tendency to crap out and relays have a limited lifetime of a given number of switches guaranteeing that eventually youll need to throw out your whole, otherwise basically flawless devices due to dead electronics.
Bosch!
I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone.
I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions.
Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no time nor energy to remove it and return it.
I tried to contact Bosch who keep redirecting me to some other I ternal department and eventually stop responding.
Do NOT buy a Bosch diswashe, even though you pay full price upfront you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you.