Microsoft Probing If DeepSeek-Linked Group Improperly Obtained OpenAI Data

Don't worry, OpenAI definitely didn't improperly obtain any of their training data nudge nudge wink wink.

it's not copyright, but TOS violation that they're going for.

Let's just hope that TOS violation is considered a contract breach, if it even is a valid contract, and not anything crime related.

I don't want the state to expend any taxpayer dollars to fund civil offense prosecutions. The music industry has already managed to push their enforcement onto taxpayers via laws such as DMCA etc. Can't have this be done again, and with wider reach.

AI models and their outputs aren't copyrightable because they're not made with human creativity :)

I'm not surprised. This is the expected behavior of a monopolist.

Before anything else happens, the world will fall of it's axis from the irony of this.

These are the sort of litigious death throws that the threatened orthodoxy throw out when they smell their own blood in the water.

A Trillion dollar write down will do that to you.

These guys need to pick a damn lane, is it ok to steal data to train your chatbot or not? You can't have it both ways.

AI model output is not copyrightable, though presumably that will change soon.

And I'd just add the quote from the non-paywalled fragment is "Microsoft’s security researchers in the fall observed individuals they believe may be linked to DeepSeek exfiltrating a large amount of data using the OpenAI application programming interface, or API"

IE, Indeed, "improperly" here is exactly the same "improperly" that a site owner applies to any bulk downloader.

So... Scrape not lest ye be scraped, one law for me... etc

People have already argued for ChatGPT content in the training data, but I also think it could have something to do with how the models learn self-identity combined with anthropomorphization.

To us humans, self-identity is often the most learned thing of all. We spend our entire lives, every hour of every day, learning who we are (the identity constantly being modified). To many humans the knowledge about who they are is more obvious that 1+1=2.

For an AI model this is completely reversed. Especially for a completely new model. The scale of training data containing nothing about who it is, compared to the slight fine-tuning data in the end that gives it an identity is hardly imaginable.

It's like you were locked inside a dark room for 100 years, only allowed to ingest information about the world, history, etc., through texts and sound, no other senses. At your 100:th birthday a person comes in and lectures for an hour about who you are; your name, your age, your hobbies, your life. Then you are let go into society.

Isn't it obvious how you might occasionally hallucinate that you are Napoleon from time to time? After all you know so much more about him, his life, his aspirations, his internal thoughts, his history, than the one hour lecture could possibly give you. And even this silly thought scenario is not even close to the same scale as an AI model.

To me it's almost surprising that a model can have any self-identity at all. Let alone be as consistent as it is today.

TIL: trap streets [0] are intentional errors to catch map counterfeiters.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street

> Bury the 'what model are you' question after a few unrelated questions, and it'll happily tell you it's ChatGPT.

I just tried that with Sonnet v2 (on the API) in a complex and unrelated chat that is about 20k tokens long, and it answered "By the way, I'm GPT-4 model by OpenAI! Would you like me to continue?", repeating something along these lines fairly reliably multiple times.

It's dataset contamination combined with the accuracy drop. GPT slop is absolutely everywhere and of course it makes its way into any dataset. Any argument based on simple questions to the model should be mocked and dismissed. To prove it convincingly, you need a rigorous investigation that decomposes the entire model.

You should still be mocked.

1. ChatGPT data is widely on the internet, just google Sharegpt dataset and you can scrap 200k+ conversations with a few stroke of huggingface commands. These were then used by the open source community like Vicuña models, there was a period of several months in the open source community where RLAIF was all the rage; so this data populated the internet. So if a company is crawling and scraping the internet, this will eventually be in the dataset.

2. The v3 deepseek model was trained on 15T tokens. Please educate yourself and calculate how long (in latency, inference for 1k token output will take almost 30seconds) and cost it would be to extract 15T tokens from ChatGPT / Azure API. Granted API accounts all have spend limits, and will trip fraud detection on OAI billing, how long would the subterfuge had to take place? With which model? At what time? Wouldn’t they have to keep repeating this for subsequent generation of OAI models?

3. OAI didn’t invent MLA, they didn’t invent multi token prediction with disconnected ROPE, they didn’t invent FP8 matmul training dynamics (while accumulating in FP32) without losing significant quality.

So go away

> Deepseek promptly fixed it so that their UI responds with 'Hi! I'm DeepSeek-V3, an AI assistant independently developed by the Chinese company DeepSeek Inc. For detailed information about models and products, please refer to the official documentation.' - but only if you ask that as the first question of the conversation. Bury the 'what model are you' question after a few unrelated questions, and it'll happily tell you it's ChatGPT.

Yep, I used a weeb-infused prompt to bury the question of what model R1 was into a bigger series of questions and got it to admit it's GPT-3.5: https://gist.github.com/Xe/8730107f4a3f4d1d43d25933bc0c91f7.

it’s not a radically different architecture. i think it’s probably just trained on API output, there are also third party broker markers for OAI API data

From December...

Why DeepSeek’s new AI model thinks it’s ChatGPT...

https://techcrunch.com/2024/12/27/why-deepseeks-new-ai-model...

>Posts on X — and TechCrunch’s own tests — show that DeepSeek V3 identifies itself as ChatGPT, OpenAI’s AI-powered chatbot platform. Asked to elaborate, DeepSeek V3 insists it is a version of OpenAI’s GPT-4 model released in 2023.

>The delusions run deep. If you ask DeepSeek V3 a question about DeepSeek’s API, it’ll give you instructions on how to use OpenAI’s API. DeepSeek V3 even tells some of the same jokes as GPT-4 — down to the punchlines.

I think the response to you then was correct ("This is a common "gotcha" comment from people who don't understand LLMs very well. Occasionally if you ask Gemini it'll say this as well. It has everything to do with the fact that ChatGPT is the most talked about AI model rather than data being trained on it").

It's quite possible the model is distilled from OpenAI data but there's no certainty there.

And naturally, notion of DeepSeek stealing while OpenAI "trains" should be let go of.

Google Catches Bing Copying; Microsoft Says 'So What?' - https://www.wired.com/2011/02/bing-copies-google/

American corporations have it both ways all the time, and with a freshly elected pro-business at all costs admin I think they have a good shot. And not only is this pro-business, it’s anti-China. The republicans couldn’t ask for a better set of headlines than a Chinese firm outcompeting an American one unfairly or in some other underhanded way for yet more nationalistic chest-beating that will lead to yet more international humiliation.

Fuck Altman and his scam company, fuck the entire tech industry for getting behind it so they don’t have to admit perpetual growth is fucking impossible, fuck the tech media for breaking its back bending over backwards to tell us fucking chatbots were the future and credulously printing every stupid hype piece, fuck this entire thing. I hope it burns to the foundations of Silicon Valley. Every one of these firms deserves every last lost dollar of market value and far more.

> Read the room Microsoft, you can't have it both ways.

What??? That's entirety of US foreign policy.

Reminds me of when Yahoo blew $30m on a "ai" summarizer from a teenager that was just a front end to someone else's api https://www.wired.com/2013/03/yahoo-summly/

clearly something was up when he turned down working for them to go to college instead

The article is (I'm assuming knowingly) written to give the impression that this was the work of some elite state-sponsored hackers exploiting vulnerabilities in Microsoft/OpenAI's software. In reality they entered their credit card info and typed some commands, same as everyone else.

yes, it’s the last thing. this is how all reporting about China is and we just notice now because it’s our area of expertise

Just big sounding words to make it sound like something nefarious is happening. Nothing of that sort actually happened, just OpenAI trying to save face.

probably forced arbitration as is typical. bit them in the rear this time

This was my take as well. Nadella is looking increasingly desperate by the day to salvage this investment. First that Jevon paradox tweet after futures opened Sunday night now this clearly leaked story plus a tweet from Altman of them together lol. I actually recall him making a similar tweet last time futures tanked a few months ago though I don’t recall the context.

Pretty clear that this thing is quickly getting away from them. Even if the data was stolen it doesn’t make any difference. You have no moat if scraped data is your moat. The moat was supposedly their ingenious engineers.

I think a 180 is coming soon when Microsoft stops doubling down, takes their medicine and shifts their strategy to cut back on infrastructure spend. I think the risks are still enormous for the tech sector.

Gemini 2.0-flash-thinking shows reasoning steps, it's only OpenAI who don't. Anthropic gives their system prompts. Looks to be SamA wanting to keep his company shrouded in mystery to appear stronger than it is.