Apple Vision Pro upgraded with M5 chip
238 comments
·October 15, 2025DennisP
random3
I'm not really following through your reasoning. How is breaking the usefulness helping the revenue stream?
Assuming you're an engineer, have you thought about what handing over a "window" from one computer to another actually entails? CRIU can do checkpoint/restore at container/process level - but you actually want it to run on both, no? So you need to split off just the I/O, but at the OS-level per window.
Apple has been doing a lot of work in this direction and they have stuff that actually work (like video calls and to some extent windows. These are processes running on different OS-es with a matrix of hundreds of devices.
It's not something you vibe code over the weekend.
woodrowbarlow
you're focusing on the "single window" part.
the revenue-driven decision was choosing to make the OS more like iOS, locked down with an app store, rather than macos, which allows third-party applications, browsing the filesystem, dropping into a terminal, etc. with built-in first-party support.
instead of making a computer in an AR form-factor, they made an iPad in an AR form-factor.
lynndotpy
My sentiments exactly. This would be such an easy purchase to justify if it weren't just a toy-- no other VR headset touts to display text so crisply. But instead, their only market demographic are people who really enjoy going to theaters alone.
I'm very eagerly looking forward to Valve's headset coming out.
PaulHoule
There are three problems with AVP: cost, cost and cost.
It is priced to be a pack-in with seats of Dassault 3DEXPERIENCE, but Meta's experience has been that the VR consumer is price sensitive which is why they followed up the MQ3 with the cost-reduced MQ3S.
I think Apple is looking at this the way they look at AirPods (something you stick in your ears to modify and augment your hearing) which is good and monitors, which is bad. Apple's always sold a tiny number of monitors with astronomical margins which looked like a good business because they didn't have to invest in product innovation to make them the way they do for the AVP -- and they didn't need software developers to invest in product innovation for their monitors, but the AVP absolutely requires it. And if they aren't shipping enough units, who is going to make software for it?
throwaway48476
Weight too. When it's strapped to your face, heavy isn't 'premium'.
abujazar
The price would be easily justified if the hardware could also be used as a regular VR headset and hooked up to a flight sim or gaming PC.
ACCount37
On top of the three problems of any AR/VR tech: UX, UX and UX.
I'm honestly not sure if Apple Vision would fare much better if they had a device that costs $100. Like, sure, they'll sell more units that way. But how many of those units would end up collecting dust?
ge96
I'll mention Simula but that's still being developed
I hope they swap out Haskell though, probably can make your own compositor
righthand
Valve already has a headset out…well before Apple had one.
lynndotpy
Yes, and it's one of the best headsets for Linux :) But this is a tethered headset and the text rendering isn't good enough to justify one over a monitor (reportedly-- I haven't bought one yet). Especially because it's tethered.
But Valve is reliably rumored to be releasing an untethered successor within the next year for a third of the cost of the AVP. The appeal is having a dozen monitors anywhere.
dvdsgl
You can surround yourself with floating terminals using the Blink app. Here I code from the couch surrounded by nvim, Claude Code, etc.: https://x.com/dvdsgl/status/1948840477970841720/video/1
efavdb
awesome. curious, what's your review for this use case?
KronisLV
> Then I found out they went with an app model and the device could only display a single MacOS window.
There was this program called Immersed for Quest and some other VR headsets (apparently Apple's one too?) that ages ago was quite brilliant: I could connect my laptop or PC and have as many virtual desktops in addition to the real ones displayed around me. Even on my Quest 2, until the strain set in, it was cool to just kinda tune out the room around me and be in a black void surrounded by just the screens of whatever I'm working on.
Sadly, in one update they randomly removed it as a "legacy feature nobody uses", which ruined the program for me, and Virtual Desktop for the Quest also has limited screens you can display, so I can't even do all 4 of my physical ones, nor virtual ones - despite it having worked previously in the other program.
For a little bit, it was a really cool mode of working, but sadly I only got glimpses of it and would need more capable hardware like AVP for that in the first place (Quest 2 very much had its limitations).
Also, this was a pretty cool idea, even if a novelty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js7Y1H5D8cY
ykl
You can in fact already do this (have Mac windows show up as separate floating windows in VisionOS instead of all being on the single MacOS window) using a third party tool called Ensemble:
https://github.com/saagarjha/Ensemble
This is what is looks like in action:
https://twitter.com/TheOriginaliTE/status/175125156764134634...
Disclaimer: I don’t know how well it works in practice because I don’t have a Vision Pro.
fennecfoxy
Another comment mentions how useful it is because it's integrated with Apple's ecosystem. I mean of course it is...Apple makes it.
I do wonder if that person had ever tried any of the myriad of VR device available a decade before beforehand and I do wonder how popular Apple's product would be if other companies were given the opportunity to integrate with the OS on the same level that Apple can (I feel like Apple is breaking anti-competitive laws constantly but nobody really cares about making them open up).
FumblingBear
I think I may be the commenter you're referring to, and yes, I have used many different VR devices over the years. I've owned at least 3 other headsets and used 5.
My point in saying the usefulness of it being tied to the ecosystem was more of a negative one than a positive one if it wasn't clear. It is personally useful for me because I have a lot of Apple products at home (though I also have PC and linux stuff too), but I wish my primary use-cases for it were more platform agnostic.
I'm also very in support of aggressive anti-trust legislation and it's probably my biggest point of contention with Apple.
Despite all that, I still like the Vision Pro and think it's an incredible piece of tech that blows every other headset I've tried out of the water for the things I like to do.
random3
OSX is at 16% of the market (Windows is 63%). Exactly how is this breaking anti-competitive laws?
happymellon
Anti-trust does not require someone to have 100% of a market.
I also don't think think this breaks anti-trust but percentages doesn't stop market manipulation.
Lucasoato
A walled garden is a walled garden, no matter the slice of the market you've been able to eat (yet).
wrsh07
I actually bought one thinking I could buy a vision pro instead of a new computer, but alas, the vision pro (despite being a powerful computer) is not usable as a work computer
(I returned it)
mrpippy
It can display an entire Mac desktop https://support.apple.com/en-us/118521
vunderba
That's not what we want at all. I should be able to slap a "Sync" button while wearing the Vision and every single window/app currently running on my Macbook Pro should show up as a completely independent spatially manipulable display within the virtual environment. That way I still get all the power of my dedicated Mac with the freedom of VR.
Even before it came out, I naturally assumed it was going to be able to do this. Major flub IMHO. Well that and the completely superfluous frontfacing screen for your "virtual avatar". Because the Vision wasn't already expensive enough...
oxml
It would be nice if Apple allowed people to choose how Mac virtual display windows were shown. I have a Vision Pro and I rather like the way it's implemented. From a UX perspective, I can't imagine trying to deal with hundreds of windows in AR space. The Vision Pro UI is good, but I'm nowhere near as fast as with a keyboard and mouse.
JKCalhoun
Sounds like something Apple could easily add.
pjerem
Which doesnt mean you can surround yourself with VIM windows.
That's just an hyper expensive huge screen.
basisword
They want the individual windows from the Mac to be manoeuvrable. Currently it works like a virtual display - you can't move windows around space like you can with visionOS apps.
JeremyHerrman
I've had the Vision Pro since launch, and the only thing that keeps me coming back to it nearly daily is the Mac Virtual Display for my MacBook Pro.
It's just so useful to have a huge display wherever you want it - no hunching over looking down a small laptop screen. This is especially useful on a plane where I'm not even able to open the laptop completely due to the tight space.
My main gripe is: Why do I need a separate Mac at all? Even the original M2 Vision Pro has more than enough horsepower to run the virtual Mac inside of the headset, so it seems like a fake limitation.
I'm looking forward to it being lighter weight and smaller, and for them to make the Mac Virtual Display native to the Vision Pro experience without the need for a separate computer.
FumblingBear
I won't be upgrading from the M2 model, but I still get a lot of value out of mine simply using the Mac Virtual Display with my Macbook Pro. Of course there are other benefits (gaming w/ ALVR and a PC, watching movies, reading comics) but it makes video editing workflows much nicer for me because I can set the resolution to ultrawide and have much more real estate for Davinci Resolve.
It never really leaves the house, and I get why a lot of people don't like it, but personally, it's one of the coolest pieces of tech I own and I get a ton of value out of it. The value is just tied to being integrated into the apple ecosystem more than it being a standalone device, which is a very Apple thing to do.
I have lots of criticisms too, but overall I really like it. Also converting photos to spatial photos and looking through old memories in 3D is truly incredible. Can't overstate how much I love that feature.
The thing I'm most excited about from this release is the backwards compatible Dual Knit Band, which I'm definitely buying.
eddieroger
I am in a similar boat. I wish they'd gone in to more detail about why this version is different than the existing one - other than "new chip" - because I like mine so much that I want to know how it's improved. I love having a portable, infinite desktop that pairs to my laptop. I have watched movies with it while away, and it's a great media consumption device. It's just cool, and should only get better and cheaper as the tech evolves.
cjoelrun
Similar. I use this as a traveling external monitor. I have a face that works well without the face seal and with the old dual band: Counter weighted with the back of my head in a way that floats the headset over my nose/face. Going back to squeezing this onto my face like the old knit band seems like it would go backwards in comfort. How can anyone have this pressed against their face for 8+ hours?
wahnfrieden
The best is to have a pulley system above your head that removes the weight of it from above. I’d like to see someone implement this via a backpack / should strap for mobile use.
pixl97
"The Vision Pro Strangulator 5000"
asimovDev
Do you do the thing where you can map your room and have different virtual desktops for each room?
FumblingBear
As far as I know, you can't have different virtual desktops for each room. The window to use the virtual desktop dynamically pops up over my laptop when I open and unlock it.
I do have a few widgets floating around in different rooms, but rarely use it from somewhere that isn't my chair or bed, so it's mostly a few clocks embedded into my walls to keep track of time, and those are persistent.
jayd16
I honestly couldn't get used to the weight. 9-5, a nice big monitor won out every time.
There's something to this AR XR stuff but even with infinite resources the convenience just isn't there for all day use for me.
noveltyaccount
It's still crazy to me that they put an M5 chip in this thing, but to run Mac apps you need a Mac. Just let the face computer be a computer!
stetrain
Yeah, I think they could increase the utility of this product for the price point pretty easily by just adding a My Virtual Mac VM to it.
Obviously there would be performance constraints but at least for your $3499 you'd be getting a Mac instead of just a Mac Monitor.
jeroenhd
Just Apple being Apple. They don't think of the face computer as a face computer, but as a Brand New Experience that needs Brand New Applications.
They'll keep their face computers separate for as long as they refuse to build Macbooks with touch screens. Which seems to be forever.
jayd16
Sadly, they want to sell you the next iPhone not the next PC.
rovr138
It also simplifies their OS, software, testing, etc.
karmakaze
It seemed silly to me, but then I remembered how Apple works. Create something that you can't have. Oh an M5 chip in something I won't buy. It would be great if we had M5's in MacBooks -> want. Apple manufactures desire first before satisfying that created 'new' market. Last time I recall was the iPad Pro's even before they started getting useful as very few people buy these. Scarcity sells.
The math isn't how many people will buy Vision Pro M5, it's how many have nots can be created by putting it in the Vision Pro.
cubefox
Speaking of which, Apple could probably support Mac apps on modern iPhones if you plug it into an external monitor. I assume they aren't doing it because it would cannibalize their laptop market.
fennecfoxy
This is why I love Samsung for DEX. It's not perfect but it's actually fairly usable when travelling. Can even use it wirelessly with a compatible display (which sometimes hotel TVs are).
I'm very excited for stuff like smart glasses ever single Glass, meta's new stuff is awesome in terms of slimming things down but the real excitement is the wristband for input. Looks like we'll be solving the display/input problems soon enough.
They seemed resistant to the idea of a compute puck but I honestly think that's fine. I'd rather have a phone in my pocket that can be used for compute than bulkier glasses, though it is nice if future glasses can do very basic tasks unaided.
I hope that pretty soon I won't even need a laptop for out of hours tasks (but would still use one for the standard work day most likely).
philistine
They could theoretically, but the thing is the Mac, despite what you read on here, has a ton of legacy libraries that are not used on iOS.
walkabout
I think the bigger problem would be that desktop programs aren’t designed with iOS-style suspension and process-killing in mind.
jayd16
So what? Compatibility means a big install? The kernel is too stripped down to patch? In what way could "it needs libraries" be a real blocker?
casey2
Not probably, definitely. Nobody wants that of course because it would mean hiring real developers over friends/family. A19 pro is already faster than modern desktop chips let alone something from a few years ago. Almost all their mac software was designed for much more modest machines.
api
It would also be slow, not because the chip is slow but because if you do serious things with it it’s going to thermal throttle. Laptops have way better heat dissipation.
Most people put phones in cases which makes heat dissipation much worse.
pipodeclown
Sure but just for browsing, checking some e-mails, a bit of YouTube or other media consumption, you know what 90% of people use their macbook for 99% of the time, it would be fine.
Nobody is saying you should be able to render some 3d models on an iPhone..
mr_toad
Mac apps will expect a full set of Mac hardware (not just the CPU), so you’d probably need to run a full virtual Mac for compatibility. Not impossible, but I expect it’s not a priority either.
postexitus
What is that full set of Mac hardware that we are not aware of?
philistine
There's no such thing. Apple sells the Mac Mini, which is nothing but a box and it runs everything fine.
walkabout
I can’t figure out what this means. For an iOS device, sure, but a Mac? What hardware does a Mac Mini, say, have that the Vision can’t provide?
pipodeclown
Like what? A macbook is just a screen, connected keyboard and trackpad. This thing has the equivalent of all of that.
q3k
What? No, that's not how any of this works.
leshokunin
I love my first gen Apple Vision Pro. I find that most of the criticism isn’t addressed at the product and technology, but at the price and Apple’s strategy.
Price will go down in five years, once the tech mature la. For now this is a bit like how the Oculus DK1 was. An early device to explore what the overall vision is about, and figure out the apps.
Mystery-Machine
I use AVP every day for work. I spend 8+ hours a day wearing the thing. It's amazing the screen real estate you get when you share your Mac screen. It's terrible that it's only one screen, but with good enough window (pun intended) management app, you can tile the windows/app inside this giant curved floating screen. That works for me because I always preferred using a single screen.
abtinf
What do you use it for?
How often do you use it?
karmakaze
Use was never claimed, only love for.
coderatlarge
i want to capture 3d video of loved ones before they’re gone
nomilk
Anyone using one? If so, what for? (please give details)
I got an oculus quest 2, was blown away by it for 1-2 hours, but never really picked it up again. The games were fun but very shallow, and never tried any practical uses.
Would love to use VR for working on a plane. Currently use a laptop, but my neck sometimes gets sore from looking down. VR has the potential to 10x the screen real estate and prevent having to look at down at an acute angle.
mapontosevenths
I have one. I use it primarily for keeping my drawer full.
That said, it's AMAZING as a home theater replacement, other than an issue with internal reflections in the optics. So in dark scenes it gets a bit annoying.
If I lived in an apartment, I would absolutely use it in place of a large TV that eats up a lot of my space. Especially coupled with the airpods MAX and spatial audio. Watching a 4k 3d movie in it is mind-blowing. Most 3d you've ever seen was really 50% of 1080p, so it's a whole new world. Some of the Apple original content is also great. The thing with the submarine is amazing.
Personally I already have a full sized home theater, so I just use that. However, I'm willing to bet that in 5 years when it's time to upgrade the home theater I'll probably just be turning it into a library with some seats I can use a VR headset from. Who knows, maybe it will be a descendant of the AVP.
SeanAnderson
Do you never entertain guests with your home theater system?
I believe you when you say that it could replace the experience for yourself, but, at least for me, hosting with my home theater is the main driver for improving it.
mapontosevenths
You nailed it. It's just not really a social experience OOTB. There are apps you can use to place multiple viewers in the same virtual space (similar to the ones on the quest), but it's just not "social" in the way that a real theater is and to do that locally would cost a fortune and be awkward and pointless.
That said, I entertain less than I watch movies alone. It's probably not worth giving up an entire room in my house for the handful of times per year that I actually entertain. My home theater is mostly just about my quest for perfection when enjoying the films that I love. If/when I can get that out of a headset... cool.
Ideally it will have real Dolby Vision/Atmos and all of the other things high end home theater equipment is expected to have, and right now the AVP doesn't. Between the reflection issues, lack of Dolby Vision, etc it's only like 80% of the way there.
wlesieutre
Amazing home theater replacement if you watch all your movies alone, or have a lot of money.
Does Vision Pro have any apps for a virtual theater where you can watch video online in a VR space with other people? I've used Bigscreen for that once or twice with a Quest, and it struck me as something that would be a cool feature if I knew more people with VR headsets.
alt227
> That said, it's AMAZING as a home theater replacement
This seems to literally be its only killer feature.
I was hoping apple would be able to figure out what nobody else has, an actual useful everyday use for AR. But still we are just given a personal theatre, or proof of concept toy 'experience' apps.
jewba
I have access to one for work stuff. It is just too heavy and uncomfortable for more than 30 min of using it.
mapontosevenths
I had to try several different straps and configurations before I found one that worked well for me. I forget what it's called now, but there's one made by a company that makes CPAP machines. That's the one to get. Makes a huge difference.
masto
On rare occasions, I use it for the virtual display; it's actually usable to sit outside and work with a giant display on the deck, or to dial myself onto the beach. But it's not exactly comfortable for extended use, and most of the time I'd rather sit at my nice desktop with multiple monitors etc.
I also have a Quest 3 and if I could only own one device, I'd take the Q3 hands-down. The games are fun, they get you up and moving, and although I'm not going to argue that the quality of the screens is the same or anything, it's more than good enough. I'll happily give up the virtual laptop screen in exchange for the library of VR games on the Quest.
I'm not much for consuming media so that aspect is lost on me. Unfortunately, that seems to be the primary use case Apple has focused on, if you can call the anemic dribble of content they've put out focus.
sbarre
Re: "VR for working on a plane" - you could look into XR glasses like the ones from XReal or Viture.
I've been considering a pair for myself after hearing good feedback from some friends, and seeing some good reviews online.
The latest versions have head tracking so the virtual screen remains "pinned" in your view.
They're also much smaller and easier to carry compared to a full VR headset, and they can plug into almost any device (laptop, tablet, phone) and just show up as an external monitor.
marcosscriven
I’ve been tempted, but a lot of the forum feedback (ie not the breathless YouTube “reviews”), suggest that optically they are pretty bad, especially near the edges.
mapontosevenths
I also have the Viture Pros. They are awesome for airplane/hotel use. Not great as second monitors, as you say optically they aren't perfect and text makes that show a bit more... but if you hook up a steamdeck or want to watch Netflix on the go it's great!
Don't get me wrong, they work as a monitor in a pinch on a plane when you need privacy it's just not going to ever replace a real monitor for you.
mkozlows
The xReal ones are extremely workable. Like, you wouldn't want to do it by preference if a good monitor was available, but easily good enough for a situation where you don't want to use a monitor or don't have one.
izolate
It's fantastic as a travel/digital nomad tool. It enables me to use a large widescreen display and work efficiently from anywhere in the world.
leshokunin
I love mine. 1) Superb virtual Mac display. 2) Great to watch Apple Immersive videos. 3) spacial photos and videos
woadwarrior01
I've been using it almost every day for Mac Virtual display, for about 1.5 years now. I don't have any other use case for it.
_alex_
this seems like the killer app. how long do you comfortably wear it? do you take it off for breaks?
null
Ancapistani
I still use mine one or two days each week, just as a monitor replacement. Most of that time is spent in Neovim :)
scrlk
> Apple Vision Pro with the M5 chip and Dual Knit Band starts at $3,499 (U.S.), and is available in 256GB, 512GB, and 1TB storage capacities.
Apple being stingy with storage (and RAM) isn’t new, but the base $3.5k spec with only 256 GB is extreme.
EDIT: clarity
rs186
I am just surprised they didn't increase the price, like what they did with almost every other new product (other than base iPhone, I guess).
My conspiracy theory is that they don't want to grab attention and get any more bad rep for this product when they are already half giving up.
fpgaminer
I had to return my Vision Pro after trying it for a week. I'm one of those rare customers that genuinely wanted to keep it, because it's the only VR headset I could _actually_ get work done in thanks to its stellar resolution and overall screen quality. In spite of its many, many flaws. But I had to ditch the thing because: 1) it's stupidly heavy, and 2) it's the only headset that caused me eyestrain.
I was praying for a new revision, but ... this wasn't it. No mention of making the thing lighter. Seems like instead they _added_ weight to the band to compensate.
Guess I'll keep waiting and hoping someone else fills the space. Maybe, just maybe, there will be a real Quest Pro with the same screen quality as the AVP. The Quest 3 is almost perfect in every regard except for that, so I'd happily drop "stupid" money to grab one with an AVP level display in it. (With the usual caveats of it being an evil Meta product, etc, etc).
qwertytyyuu
I expected them to give up on it. Props for not pulling a google, but I guess that isn't a high bar?
bjacobel
They massively over-estimated demand [1] and produced tens if not hundreds of thousands of units that didn't sell. This is them trying to liquidate their inventory of components.
[1]: https://daringfireball.net/2024/10/vision_pro_bites_dog
ulfw
They have given up on it. This is simply a chip replacement. It's likely cheaper than keep producing M2s just for this thing.
CaptainOfCoit
> They have given up on it
> keep producing
Maybe it's just me, but if they keep producing it (regardless of what chip), doesn't that mean they haven't given up on it?
quitit
The evidence for "giving up" is pretty thin.
Ignoring the new model: which has upgraded screens, a faster refresh rate and a new headband design amongst other upgrades - which each indicate more R&D activity on the Vision Pro than say AirPods Max or the HomePod line. One would still need to content with:
- Embracing 3rd party wide field-of-view, 180°, and 360° camera makers for direct compatibility for content creation.
- Working with Black Magic Design on a spatial production workflow and a specialised camera for simplified spatial video creation.
- The development of not just more content, but more types of content, especially around live events and sports.
- A steady stream of software updates that add useful and forward-planning functionality.
The people that are saying that it's dead are simply choosing not to pay attention or confusing apple's push into widening their AR offerings as abandoning the vision pro.
It's also hard to reason with these people because they suggest (without evidence) that the sales numbers are unexpectedly low, while also stating that the factory that makes the screens is limiting production (again without evidence). This is more the type of speak of PR astroturfing than genuine discussion.
layer8
They stopped the development of a successor model. It’s the M5 they continue producing (and the new dual strap), the other parts they mostly have existing inventory of.
jayd16
They have inventory (and maybe contract minimums) for the other parts.
simultsop
[flagged]
bluescrn
Still an external battery?
If it's going to be tethered to a battery, why not just tether it to a Mac (or iPhone) instead, and make the device a lot cheaper+simpler in the process?
akamaka
> With M5, Apple Vision Pro renders 10 percent more pixels with the micro-OLED displays
I found this little piece of information interesting. Apparently the display on the Vision Pro has such high resolution that they reduce the detail of the rendering. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that reported before. It means that an even higher quality display is still far in the future, since the silicon to push that many pixels isn’t quite ready.
layer8
At the same time, the resolution still isn’t quite enough for virtual Mac screen to not look worse than the real one. The Vision Pro has around 34 PPD. “Retina” resolution for VR is generally considered to require at least 60 PPD. That would mean four times the amount of pixels at the Vision Pro’s panel size. Add to that that the Vision Pro’s FOV is relatively small, you’d want even more pixels than that.
ErneX
I think it also does foveated rendering, it detects where you are gazing and renders that area at a higher res than the periphery.
thetwentyone
Anyone have experience with AVP+ALVR vs Valve Index? I have only used the latter but interested if I can use ALVR effectively enough to replace the Index.
Coeur
If anybody else is wondering what parents means by ALVR: "Air Light VR", a software to stream games from your PC to a VR headset: https://github.com/alvr-org/ALVR
I was super interested in the Vision Pro when it was first released. Then I found out they went with an app model and the device could only display a single MacOS window. There went my dream of surrounding myself with a bunch of vim windows and terminals.
If they'd focused on maximizing the device's usefulness instead of its revenue stream, maybe things would have worked out better.