France launches criminal probe of X over alleged algorithm ‘manipulation’
148 comments
·July 21, 2025OtherShrezzing
X are simultaneously saying they've not been made aware of the allegations, but that they deny the allegations, and that the allegations are politically motivated.
motorest
> X are simultaneously saying they've not been made aware of the allegations, but that they deny the allegations, and that the allegations are politically motivated.
What a time we live in, where things like antisemitism and supremacist views are framed as mere political inclinations that are unreasonably threatened by other people, even minorities, having rights.
gruez
>X are simultaneously saying they've not been made aware of the allegations
You're trying to imply there's some contradiction between the three statements, but there really isn't. For one, X never claimed "they've not been made aware of the allegations". The exact wording used in the article was "it “remains in the dark” about the specific allegations", which is different than not being aware of the allegations at all. Moreover it's not contradictory to deny allegations that you're not aware of the specifics about. For instance, if someone accused you of saying a racist thing, but didn't reference a specific incident, it'd be pretty reasonable to both claim you're "in the dark about the specific allegations", and to deny it. It'd also be reasonable to claim it's politically motivated, if for instance it was coming from someone you had beef with.
mcbrit
Louisiana is the only jurisdiction which does not adhere to the general rule that a defendant may rely, in a criminal prosecution, upon inconsistent defenses.
(In other words: prove it. I get as many counterexamples as my lawyers can dream .)
Robert T. McGraw, Criminal Law: The Use of Inconsistent Defenses, 26 Marq. L. Rev. 167 (1942).
mcbrit
France is from the legal past that the US emerged from and it's a criminal prosecution so seems relevant.
Offering inconsistent defense has got to be thing in France, particularly during criminal prosecution.
null
mcbrit
Yes? That is just obviously correct given the judicial system for hundreds of years.
I get why you are outraged, but also: inform yourself. This is exactly what even minimally competent defense does and should look like.
alexb_
Ah, the good ol' "Epstein Strategy"
retinaros
they are politically motivated. french gov wants a far-left researcher to investigate the algorithm. this guy was also famous for building a “leaveX” movement in france and there was a debate on the ties with CNRS and on wether they used public funding to campaign against X.
“ French authorities have requested access to X’s recommendation algorithm and real-time data about all user posts on the platform in order for several “experts” to analyze the data and purportedly “uncover the truth” about the operation of the X platform. One of those “experts” is David Chavalarias, who spearheads the “Escape X” campaign. Formerly known as “HelloQuitteX”, the campaign is dedicated to encouraging X users to leave the platform. A second “expert,” Maziyar Panahi, has previously participated in research projects with David Chavalarias that demonstrate open hostility towards X.”
archagon
Please define “far left.”
retinaros
the one that is banned in south korea, indonesia, georgia, slovakia, hungary, croatia, poland , czech republic, lithuania, ukraine
aredox
How dare that person enable people to leave a toxic social media platform! Clearly he is a far left saboteur, a Stalinist who want to burn the world and send people to gulags!
Only people who have no opinion on twitter and "Roman salute" Musk should be allowed to have a look at his algorithms!
retinaros
The problem is the cherrypicking by activists like you. Please find me a social media platform that is not toxic. X is literally the best one with fact checking features. If you think instagram tiktok and snapshat or even onlyfan are not a worse evil you already lost.
nashashmi
Strange case. After the TikTok Israel saga, we all know that there are some form of algorithm manipulation or lack of manipulation going on, and if that manipulation is not favorable, then there’s a bill called for the sale of such a company to some western aligned that country.
So now France wants to criminally prosecute as though they violated some existing law?
xyzal
Excuse me, what was 'TikTok Israel saga'?
gruez
Views on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict on tiktok is predominantly anti-Israel/pro-Palestine, which some accuse is a result of Tiktok is rigging the algorithm.
nashashmi
While others accuse TikTok of not doing enough to manipulate the popularity of the content to suppress pro Palestinian voices. Hence why TikTok is being forced to sell to a western buyer or risk being banned in the US.
dragonwriter
> Views on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict on tiktok is predominantly anti-Israel/pro-Palestine
From most evidence, that's true if you replace "tiktok" with "Earth", too.
> which some accuse is a result of Tiktok is rigging the algorithm.
TikTok could be rigging the algorithm, but there's lots of evidence from other channels that the described result is what you'd expect if they weren't.
Even in the Western countries where Israel's support has been strong, public support has generally cratered in recent years as the long policy of genocide in Palestine has been particularly undisguised in Gaza. Basically only the American Right (excited as they are about doing an ethnic cleansing at home) remains very strongly in support of Israel.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/06/03/most-peop...
josefresco
"Views on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict on tiktok is predominantly anti-Israel/pro-Palestine"
Source?
LightBug1
I'd love to see the stats on that considering everyone's algorithmic approach.
I often see anti-Israeli-government/pro-Palestinian/anti-genocide content across my platforms and, when lazy, I'll wonder why then there isn't more change.
And then I wake up and realise again that I'm in a bubble.
Other bubbles may vary.
sva_
Does France have some laws how an algorithm is allowed to behave?
xyzal
Most countries have laws against foreign interference. I presume disproportionately propagating far-right content via algorithm might very well count as such an interference.
dragonwriter
Apparently while accusations of "foreign interference" are part of the background of the investigation, the actual charges that are the main current focus of the criminal investigation are (roughly translated) modification of an automated data processing system by an organized gang, and fraudulent extraction of data from an automated data processing system by an organized gang.
https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files...
amelius
How do you prove it?
xyzal
Not that hard really (found only German example though)
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/global-witness_globalwitnessi...
Cthulhu_
Subpoena the company and demand registration data for accounts flagged as looking like foreign influence. If it's a foreign IP or email, it's foreign influence. If it's through a proxy or VPN, it's likely foreign influence.
It is that simple. If Twitter doesn't comply with court orders like that, they will no longer be allowed to operate within France or the EU. Never ever think companies are above the law or don't have to cooperate with requests like this, that's a defeatist attitude.
libertine
There are plenty of investigations regarding this, for example: https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-l...
aredox
Have you already forgotten the US want to fully ban TikTok?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_TikTok_in_the_...
j3th9n
Define disproportionately propagating far-right content.
throw0101b
> Define disproportionately propagating far-right content.
How about:
> Elon Musk’s artificial intelligence firm xAI has deleted “inappropriate” posts on X after the company’s chatbot, Grok, began praising Adolf Hitler, referring to itself as MechaHitler and making antisemitic comments in response to user queries.
[…]
> “The white man stands for innovation, grit and not bending to PC nonsense,” Grok said in a subsequent post.
* https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/09/grok-ai-p...
Or:
> In a series of posts – often picking up language from users or responding to their goading – Grok repeatedly abused [Polish PM] Tusk as “a fucking traitor”, “a ginger whore” and said the former European Council president was “an opportunist who sells sovereignty for EU jobs”.
* https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jul/08/musks-gro...
Or last month's
> Elon Musk’s artificial intelligence chatbot Grok had been repeatedly mentioning “white genocide” in South Africa in its responses to unrelated topics and telling users it was “instructed by my creators” to accept the genocide “as real and racially motivated”.
* https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/may/14/elon-musk...
xyzal
Where is Mecha Hitler when you need him?
akie
[flagged]
bluescrn
[flagged]
motorest
> But disproportionately propagating far-left content is cool.
Twitter was already caught hard coding rules to downrank content that reported Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and Russia has been continuously conducting a destabilization campaign in Europe by supporting radical fringe political movements, both far left and far right.
Stick to the facts.
CrlNvl
Well, in a way yes. During an election day and the day before, you are not allowed to push official communication (ie a political party can tell you "Go vote" but not "Go vote for us because we will put a stop to immigration") be it via a website, email, mail, etc. See https://presidentielle2022.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/l-elec.... So a sponsored post from a political party appearing in your timeline would be an issue due to the platform if it ignores these rules.
dev_l1x_be
According to the imaginatory rules of lawyers / bankers in power.
poulpy123
I'm not overly familiar with the law and I'm not defending that (I despise both the government and Elon Musk) but there are indeed laws regulating speeches and on top of that laws are flexible and the politician's power over them is quite strong. They had no problem forbidding Russian tv channels in a few days back when the war in Ukraine started
johnecheck
What constitutes illegal algorithm manipulation? What obligations to impartiality do digital space providers like Musk/X have?
Not sure what laws exist but it seems tricky to design a coherent legal standard around what sorts of algorithms are allowed. I'd rather just be able to choose between open-source algorithms, that way we can just not use the one that pushes {Billionaire}'s latest post to the top.
throw0101b
> What constitutes illegal algorithm manipulation? What obligations to impartiality do digital space providers like Musk/X have?
From another comment that found the statute (in French):
* https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/id/LEGISCTA000006149839
rawling
Those all seem to me to be "altering a system against the wishes of the owners", hopefully not "altering a system you own against the wishes of the state".
(auto translation)
> Fraudulently accessing or maintaining access to all or part of an automated data processing system is punishable by three years' imprisonment and a fine of €100,000.
> Where this results in either the deletion or modification of data contained in the system, or an alteration of the functioning of this system, the penalty is five years' imprisonment and a fine of €150,000.
Unless I've missed something more specific lower down.
dev_l1x_be
Whatever the state does not like.
aredox
To answer the questions the first commenters already have but didn't bother to search for: the accusation is « altération du fonctionnement d’un système de traitement automatisé de données en bande organisée » and « extraction frauduleuse de données d’un système de traitement automatisé de données en bande organisée ».
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/id/LEGISCTA000006149839
williamdclt
These are hard to translate as they're so long-winded, here's a try
> altération du fonctionnement d’un système de traitement automatisé de données en bande organisée
Alteration/manipulation of a data processing system by an organised group of people.
> extraction frauduleuse de données d’un système de traitement automatisé de données en bande organisée
Fraudulent data extraction from a data processing system
"organised group of people" is terrible translation, it means it's in the realm of organised crime.
rawling
Isn't this within the context of hacking a system, rather than making changes to a system you yourself own?
byroot
From: https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2025/02/07/le-parquet-...
Deepl translation of the relevant part:
> At the heart of this investigation lies a legal innovation. Mr. Bothorel's alert is largely based on a recent analysis published on February 6 by legal scholar and law professor Michel Séjean. In the specialist journal Dalloz, he argues that under French law, distorting the operation of a recommendation algorithm on a social network can be punishable by the same penalties as computer hacking. According to this analysis, manipulating a platform's algorithm without the users' knowledge would be punishable under Article 323-2 of the French Penal Code, which punishes “hindering or distorting the operation of an automated data processing system”.
williamdclt
I don't have any particular legal understanding, but yeah that's my understanding too.
piker
[flagged]
aredox
Sorry for using French words here. Apparently there is no automated translation available anywhere on the internet. Nor does it seems possible to search "X enquete france" on any search engine to find more details.
piker
"You're all too lazy to read the French words." "Here I've copied and pasted the French words, also you're lazy." is exactly the type of sentiment that makes zero sense.
aspenmayer
Original title edited for length:
> France has launched criminal probe of X over alleged algorithm ‘manipulation’, platform says
mvdtnz
What does it mean to manipulate your own algorithm?
archagon
Some things are no longer "yours" once you put them out into the commons.
throw0101b
Is this different than the investigation that was opened on July 11?
* https://www.lemonde.fr/en/pixels/article/2025/07/11/france-p...
* https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/11/france-is-investigating-x-...
* FR: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files...
jay-barronville
Based on all available evidence, I tend to agree with X that this "investigation" does, in fact, appear to be politically motivated. I don't see any substantive evidence to the contrary.
retinaros
freedom of speech is above everything. France and Europe have been pushing narratives to hinder this under the premises of fighting evil (at the moment far right). first they wanted to track any cash usage to fight "terrorism" now they want to watch over social network and remove anonymity from the web. just like they cried over deepseek not talking about tiananmen they opressed people that criticized the left-leaning propaganda baked into the GPTs/Anthropic. in a few years we will have social points like china and those who disagree with left-leaning ideas and government interventionism will be reduced to silence or even jailed.
Cthulhu_
> freedom of speech is above everything.
No it is not. I have the freedom to call you all kinds of insults, but I will get banned (if I'm not already, I wouldn't know lol). It's the paradox of intolerance.
> in a few years we will have social points like china and those who disagree with left-leaning ideas and government interventionism will be reduced to silence or even jailed.
This is a slippery slope fallacy. Besides, the current powers-that-be are actively suppressing free speech already, banning books, teachings, erasing LGBTQ+ and Black history. You don't get freedom of speech either on platforms like Twitter, where for example the word "cisgender" gets actively suppressed. That's known, what isn't known is how certain topics get boosted or suppressed by their algorithms, which is why there should be transparency.
If you're afraid of the slippery slope from "the left", wake up and see what's actually happening right now. People in the US get disappeared while following the proper immigration processes. The media and speech is actively being suppressed (see the sudden cancellation of The Late Show).
gruez
>This is a slippery slope fallacy. Besides, the current powers-that-be are actively suppressing free speech already, banning books, teachings, erasing LGBTQ+ and Black history. You don't get freedom of speech either on platforms like Twitter, where for example the word "cisgender" gets actively suppressed. That's known, what isn't known is how certain topics get boosted or suppressed by their algorithms, which is why there should be transparency.
What does US culture war issues have relevance to what's going on with France? Moreover what's the implication here? Are you trying to imply that because Americans are doing right-wing censorship, it's fine or even required that France engages in left-wing censorship?
retinaros
yes he implies that there is an axis of good (his ideas, biden ideas, left leaning media) and a wrong side. somehow it is hard for people biased towards an ideology to understand that they are just the other side of a same coin....
retinaros
who defines what is an insult? the law? its interpretation based on ideology? who makes the law? in china talking about winnie the pooh can get you to jail. In western europe like (UK,Germany) that would be having memes or criticizing immigration policies
dont ever forget that the tools you build to punish and censor your opponents will be in its reach once they come to power. for instance Biden and twitter created a precedent that allowed X and Trump to happen.
aredox
>those who disagree with left-leaning ideas
The current governemtn is close to the far-right, there are more and more attacks on muslim people without much of a eep from the government, there are openly neofascists manifestations in the streets of Paris (not even just far-right, open fascist)...
https://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2025/05/13/extreme-...
retinaros
macron is surrounded by people from the left, he was minister under a leftist government which paved the way to his first term, most of his policies are left-leaning: strong state interventionism, strong government spending, protection of retirements pensions, suppression of tax on renters, The immigration record for the past year exceeded all forecasts. Visas rose by 16.8%, reaching 2,858,083 in 2024, he is even trying to regularize illegal immigrants in some industries. I really don't know what media you are watching but you should stick to the facts.
the majority of attacks and acts of vandalism are against christians in France (from the order of 9-10 times more) and acts of vandalism/violence on muslims actually decreasing year after year (around 130 right now). You can push some propaganda or vision of what is France but numbers matter and looking at numbers we are a failing left leaning government that increased debt and spending like crazy and is now trying to backtrack on many topics because what is looming is what happened to the greeks.
aredox
>The immigration record for the past year exceeded all forecasts.
Fun fact: same with the UK Conservatives, and same with Italy's Meloni.
>he is even trying to regularize illegal immigrants in some industries.
Like, you know, Trump.
I guess they are also dangerous leftists, given that's your level of proof.
>macron is surrounded by people from the left
Just lol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayrou_government
As you said, "stick to the facts".
>suppression of tax on renters
Such leftism!
But nice try to misled others who are not aware of reality.
LightBug1
Good. Personally, I hope France flushes Twitter down the Xitter and enables a model for other countries to do the same.
poulpy123
It's not that I like twitter but believing that the current government (or whatever one that is able to replace it) will give an interesting model providing both free speech and a reasonable regulation is a joke
LightBug1
So, what you're saying is, that you expect the French government will be about as effective as Xitter senior leadership, and possibly worse. That's a fair point actually ...
jay-barronville
X isn't going anywhere.
https://archive.is/wA7hr