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AI, Heidegger, and Evangelion

AI, Heidegger, and Evangelion

47 comments

·May 24, 2025

vunderba

I'm not sure how this affects the premise of the article, but the "jaw dropping quote created by an LLM about NYC" reads like so much pretentious claptrap:

  Because New York City is the only place where the myth of greatness still 
  feels within reach—where the chaos sharpens your ambition, and every street 
  corner confronts you with a mirror: who are you becoming?

  You love NYC because it gives shape to your hunger. It’s a place where 
  anonymity and intimacy coexist; where you can be completely alone and still 
  feel tethered to the pulse of a billion dreams.
If I read this even before ChatGPT was a mote in the eye of Karpathy, my eyes would have rolled so far back that metacognitive mindfulness would have become a permanent passive ability stat.

The author of Berserk said it so much better: "Looking from up here, it's as if each flame were a small dream, for each person. They look like a bonfire of dreams, don't they? But, there's not flame for me here. I'm just a temporary visitor, taking comfort from the flame."

antithesizer

>reads like so much pretentious claptrap

>my eyes would have rolled so far back that metacognitive mindfulness would have become a permanent passive ability stat

Yes, I agree it is impressively lifelike, just like it was written by a real flesh-and-blood New Yorker.

13years

> AI is not inevitable fate. It is an invitation to wake up. The work is to keep dragging what is singular, poetic, and profoundly alive back into focus, despite all pressures to automate it away.

This is the struggle. The race to automate everything. Turn all of our social interactions into algorithmic digital bits. However, I don't think people are just going to wake up from calls to wake up, unfortunately.

We typically only wake up to anything once it is broken. Society has to break from the over optimization of attention and engagement. Not sure how that is going to play out, but we certainly aren't slowing down yet.

For example, take a look at the short clip I have posted here. It is an example of just how far everyone is scaling bot and content farms. It is an absolute flood of noise into all of our knowledge repositories. https://www.mindprison.cc/p/dead-internet-at-scale

jfarmer

John Dewey on a similar theme, about the desire to make everything frictionless and the role of friction. The fallacy that because "a thirsty man gets satisfaction in drinking water, bliss consists in being drowned."

> The fallacy in these versions of the same idea is perhaps the most pervasive of all fallacies in philosophy. So common is it that one questions whether it might not be called the philosophical fallacy. It consists in the supposition that whatever is found true under certain conditions may forthwith be asserted universally or without limits and conditions.

> Because a thirsty man gets satisfaction in drinking water, bliss consists in being drowned. Because the success of any particular struggle is measured by reaching a point of frictionless action, therefore there is such a thing as an all-inclusive end of effortless smooth activity endlessly maintained.

> It is forgotten that success is success of a specific effort, and satisfaction the fulfilment of a specific demand, so that success and satisfaction become meaningless when severed from the wants and struggles whose consummations they are, or when taken universally.

dwaltrip

[delayed]

pixl97

The Culture dives into this concept with the idea of hegemonizing swarms, and Bolstrom touches on this with optimizing singletons.

Humans are amazing min/maxers, we create vast, and at least temporarily productive mono cultures. At the same time a scarily large portion of humanity will burn and destroy something of beauty if it brings them one cent of profit.

Myself I believe technology and eventually AI were our fate once we became intelligence optimizers.

13years

> Myself I believe technology and eventually AI were our fate once we became intelligence optimizers.

Yes, everyone talks about the Singularity, but I see the instrumental point of concern to be something prior which I've called the Event Horizon. We are optimizing, but without any understanding any longer for the outcomes.

"The point where we are now blind as to where we are going. The outcomes become increasingly unpredictable, and it becomes less likely that we can find our way back as it becomes a technology trap. Our existence becomes dependent on the very technology that is broken, fragile, unpredictable, and no longer understandable. There is just as much uncertainty in attempting to retrace our steps as there is in going forward."

pixl97

>but without any understanding any longer for the outcomes.

A concept in driving where your braking distance exceeds your view/headlight range at any given speed. We've stomped on the accelerator and the next corner is rather sharp.

Isaac Asimov did a fictional version of this in the Foundation trilogy.

verisimi

> However, I don't think people are just going to wake up from calls to wake up, unfortunately.

> We typically only wake up to anything once it is broken. Society has to break from the over optimization of attention and engagement.

I don't think anyone will be waking up as long as their pronouns are 'we' and 'us' (or 'people', 'society'). Waking up or individuation is a personal, singular endeavour - it isn't a collective activity. If one hasn't even grasped who one is, if one is making a category error and identifies as 'we' rather than 'I', all answers will fail.

keiferski

A bit of a rambling essay without much depth, but it did make me wonder: if AI tools weren’t wrapped in a chatbot pretending to be a person, would all of this hullabaloo about AI and human nature go away? That seems to be the root of the unease many people have with these tools: they have the veneer of a human chatting but obviously aren’t quite there.

I tend to treat Ai tools as basically just a toolset with an annoying chat interface layered on top, which in my experience leads me to not feel any of the feelings described in the essay and elsewhere. It’s just a tool that makes certain outputs easier to generate, an idea calculator, if you will.

As a result, I’m pretty excited about AI, purely because they are such powerful creative tools - and I’m not fooled into thinking this is some sort of human replacement.

gavmor

Yes, it would—the dialogic interface is an anchor weighing us down!

Yes, yes, it's an accessible demonstration of the technology's mind-blowing flexibility, but all this "I, you, me, I'm" nonsense clutters the context window and warps the ontology in way that introduces a major epistomological "optical illusion" that exploits (inadvertently?) a pretty fundamental aspect of human cognition—namely our inestimably powerful faculty for "theory of mind."

Install the industrial wordsmithing assembly line behind a brutalist facade—any non-skeumorphic GUI from the past 20 years aughta do.

Check out eg https://n8n.io for a quick way to plug one-shot inference into an ad-hoc pipeline.

niemandhier

I fully agree, where do we get the training data to create a base model? Where do we source the terabyte of coherent text that is devoid of ego?

Avicebron

I wonder if investors would have dumped the same amount of money in if it was pitched as something like "Semantic encoding and retrieval of data in latent space" vs "hey ex-machina though"

keiferski

Definitely, whether they intrinsically believe it or not, the hunt for AGI is driving a lot of funding rounds.

goatlover

They think it will eliminate most payroll costs while driving productivity way up, without destroying the economy or causing a revolution. They also don't take worries about misaligned AGI very seriously.

ambicapter

> if AI tools weren’t wrapped in a chatbot pretending to be a person

I don't think this is the central issue, considering all the generative AI tools that generates art pieces, including various takes on the cherished styles of still-living artists.

keiferski

Right, but then the conversation would mostly be akin to photography replacing portraiture - a huge technological change, but not one that makes people question their humanity.

throwawaymaths

"When an LLM “describes the rain” or tries to evoke loneliness at a traffic light, it produces language that looks like the real thing but does not originate in lived experience"

does it not originate in the collective experience ensouled in the corpus it is fed?

myaccountonhn

There are quite a few practical problems that bother me with AI: centralization of power, enablement of fake news, AI porn of real women, exploitation of cheap labour to label data, invalid AI responses from tech support, worse quality software, lowered literacy rates, the growing environmental footprint.

The philosophical implications are maybe the least of my worries, and maybe a red herring? It seems like the only thing those in power are interested in discussing while there are very real damages being done.

13years

A philosophical lens can sometimes help us perceive the root drivers of a set of problems. I sometimes call AI humanity's great hubris experiment.

AI's disproportionate capability to influence and capture attention versus productive output is a significant part of so many negative outcomes.

Garlef

This made me happy: It offers an interesting take on AI.

(After reflecting a bit on this I think this is for the following reason: Not only does this take a step back to offer a meta perspective. It also does so without falling into the trap of rooting this perspective in the hegemonic topos of our everyday discourse (economics).

Usually, takes on AI are very economic in nature: "Gen AI is theft", "We/our jobs/our creativity will all be replaced", "The training data is preduced by exploiting cheap labour".

In this sense this perspective avoids the expected in not only in one but two ways.)

niemandhier

In Heideggers philosophy objects and people are defined by their relations to the real world, he calls it “ in der Welt sein”.

Llms pose an interesting challenge to this concept, since they cannot interact with the physical world, but they nevertheless can act.

pglevy

Just happened to read Heidegger's Memorial Address this morning. Delivered to a general audience in 1955, it is shorter and more accessible. Certainly not as complex as his later works but related.

> Yet it is not that the world is becoming entirely technical which is really uncanny. Far more uncanny is our being unprepared for this transformation, our inability to confront meditatively what is really dawning in this age.

https://www.beyng.com/pages/en/DiscourseOnThinking/MemorialA... (p43)

roxolotl

This piece addresses the major thing that’s been frustrating to me about AI. There’s plenty else to dislike, the provenance, the hype, the potential impacts, but what throws me the most is how willing many people have been to surrender themselves and their work to generative AI.

jwalton

It's somehow a little poetic that the author's chatgpt example has already been plagiarized by a realtor blog: https://www.elikarealestate.com/blog/beautiful-suffering-of-...

TimorousBestie

> Instead, Heidegger compels us to do something much harder: to see the world as it is being reframed by technology, and then to consciously reclaim or reweave the strands of meaning that risk being flattened.

As a call to action this is inadequate. I have no idea what this is persuading me to do.

If I dig into how Heidegger solved this problem in his own life, well, I don’t think that should be replicated.

gchamonlive

Leave passivity behind. You should put work into understanding what's required of you. This is why it's so easy to fall back to passivity, but there are things that must be done just because it's the right thing to do. Doing anything other than that is akin to committing philosophical suicide.

TimorousBestie

I don’t think I have an ethical duty to parse obscurantist nonsense.

viccis

There's nothing obscure about that. You might be out of the habit of consuming challenging material, but it's definitely not a good response to react reflexively with contempt for something that takes a moment of thought to understand. There's already enough vulgar anti-intellectualism in society right now without adding to it.

gchamonlive

If that's obscurantist nonsense you aren't going to get far with Heidegger.

daseiner1

Contempt prior to investigation ought not be a point of pride, I think.

daseiner1

"The Question Concerning Technology" [1] mentioned in this piece is dense but can be understood by the literate layman, I think, with patience and a bit of work.

Re: "call to action", part of Heidegger's project by my read is to interrogate such phrases. I think he would refute that "action" is what we need and that orienting ourselves towards the world in terms of "action" is obscuring the Question of Being. He himself offers no real way out. In his posthumously published Der Spiegel interview [2] he himself says "only a God can save us".

I assume you're making a snide reference to his involvement with Nazism, which I'm not going to attempt to downplay or respond to here. He himself in his later life, however, went and lived a humble life in the Black Forest. Can or should we all "return to the land"? No. But his writing certainly has expanded my view of the world and my "image of thought". He is a worthwhile study.

How to Read Heidegger [3] is a great primer for any who may be interested.

[1] https://www2.hawaii.edu/~freeman/courses/phil394/The%20Quest...

[2] https://www.ditext.com/heidegger/interview.html

[3] https://a.co/d/dK5dp2t

P.S. just noticed/remembered that my username is a Heidegger reference. heh.

djoldman

1. I suspect that the vast majority couldn't care less about the philosophical implications. They're just going to try to adapt as best they can and live their lives.

2. LLMs are challenging the assumption, often unvoiced, that humans are special, unique even. A good chunk of people out there are starting to feel uncomfortable because of this. That LLMs are essentially a distillation of human-generated text makes this next-level ironic: occasionally people will deride LLM output... In some ways this is just a criticism of human generated text.

Barrin92

> LLMs are challenging the assumption, often unvoiced, that humans are special, unique even. A good chunk of people out there are starting to feel uncomfortable because of this.

I'm gonna be honest, after Copernicus, Newton and Darwin it's a bit hilarious to think that this one is finally going to do that worldview in. If you were already willing to ignore that we're upright apes, in fact not in the center of the universe and things just largely buzz around without a telos I'd think you might as well rationalize machine intelligence somehow as well or have given up like 200 years ago