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UK's Ancient Tree Inventory

UK's Ancient Tree Inventory

32 comments

·May 14, 2025

ta1243

The Sycamore Gap tree was only about 150 years old. Sure it was striking given the position, but the outrage over it seems to be somewhat overexagerated.

Compare far less outrage when a restaurant chain chopped down a 500 year old tree. Where are the nationwide discussions about whether the CEO or branch manager (heh) or whatever should be going to prison for 5 years or 10 years.

graemep

Negligence vs clear criminal intent.

mytailorisrich

As far as I understand, that restaurant cut down a tree that wasn't theirs without contacting the owner (the local Council). Any individuals doing the same would have been charged with criminal damage. Their apology and claim of "health and safety grounds" are rubbish in my opinion.

hilbert42

"Any individuals doing the same would have been charged with criminal damage."

We see too much of employees, CEOs, boards etc. doing unacceptable stuff and riding roughshod over everyone and then hiding behind the protection of their corporations.

Statutory fine amounts are often set to be effective in normal circumstances, individuals, small and medium businesses, etc. but they're just small change to a large corporation. Clearly, the way around this is to strengthen laws so both corporations and their employees are fined.

Corporate fines should be set as a percentage of turnover to a level where it actually hurts the offending corporation (its shareholded profits, etc.), also the individual perpetrators within the corporation would be charged separately.

Much of this shit would stop if those responsible were hit with large fined and or thrown in the slammer. Being individually liable ought to send shivers down their spines, they'd then think twice before acting.

It seems to me the only reason the Law doesn't make effective use of this 'dual' approach to enforcement must be threats from Big Business to lawmakers to the effect that employees would be less inclined to make decisions thus it would stymie buisnness as a whole (large sectors of the economy would suffer with reduced profits etc.). If not, what else is stopping lawmakers from acting?

It's time laws were strengthened thus, we desperately need ways to reign in these wilful cowboys.

amiga386

The restaurant conducted a safety review of its premises and the surrounding area, which it is legally required to. Even if it doesn't own the land, it is responisible for making sure it is a safe place for staff and customers.

This tree overlooked their car park, and if it had fallen or its limbs broke off, could easily crush, maim or kill people.

They relied on a specialist contractor to tell them whether all the trees in the vicinity were safe. The restaurant is legally required to mitigate hazards.

The (unnamed) specialist contractor said this particular tree wasn't safe due to dead and splitting wood. While the tree is in this legally-non-binding inventory of ancient trees, it was not subject to any specific tree protection order at the time the contractor gave the advice.

The restaurant took the contractor's advice and asked them to make it safe, which involved dismembering most of it. Only then did someone who actually cares about trees, and doesn't just see them as a box-ticking exercise or a way to make or save money, learn that this was happening and raise a fuss about it.

And now the tree has a tree preservation order, after being hacked to bits. It could have had a tree preservation order at any time in the past, but it didn't. If it did have one, the specialist contractor would have known, and would have advised the restaurant differently.

There aren't any specific villianous individuals anywhere in this story. This is a systematic problem, which is why tree heritage groups are campaigning for a law that protects ancient trees just for being ancient.

The way you fight the mundane evil that is bureaucracy is you add more bureaucracy; add in more restrictions on what companies, councils, governments can legally do. Otherwise this happens, and so does this:

* https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/06/sheffield-ci...

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-64961358

DrBazza

You mean the tree cut down in or next to the Tottenham Hotspur training ground, or proposed development (I forget).

Also, the tree cut down by the restaurant chain, that's part owned by... one of the owners of Tottenham Hotspur FC.

Also the same club that couldn't redevelop their stadium until the scrap yard opposite vacated, which they refused to do. Then it 'mysteriously' burnt down.

Also, also, I don't subscribe to conspiracy, and I think these are just unfortunate random occurences. Million to one events happen 9 times out of 10.

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mytailorisrich

Outrage is an emotion. The Sycamore Gap Tree was very famous, symbolic and a landmark, and thus its felling triggered a big emotional response even if arguably the felling of a 500 year old oak by that Toby Carvery restaurant is in a way "worse", indeed.

FiniteField

The outrage over the Sycamore gap felling, while somewhat justified, is mostly an outlet of expression for a latent feeling of nationalism that the ruling and middle classes of Britain feel they aren't allowed to acknowledge, even to themselves. There's no world where it's logically consistent that the felling of a 150-year-old tree is a national outrage, but the dissolution of the indigenous ethnic groups of Britain, almost within a single generation, with their 2000 years of history on the island, is not worth even commenting on (or is even something to celebrate).

For an even clearer example, see the case of the red squirrel.

hermitcrab

>is mostly an outlet of expression for a latent feeling of nationalism

I don't think so. It was the fact that it was such a pointless act of vandalism that caused so much outrage.

rainingmonkey

Exactly, Britain for the Britons! Anglo-Saxons out, and take your ugly Germanic language with you!

amiga386

> with their 2000 years of history on the island

Dude, stop fucking people about. The country was usurped about 1000 years ago by Frenchmen of Danish heritage and they rubbed the native Anglo-Saxon faces into the dirt. And those Anglo-Saxons had similarly usurped native Celtic peoples around 600 years before that. And let's not get into these Celtic people fighting Pictish people for control of proto-Scotland.

Trying to bundle all the UK's myriad historic ethnicities into a single "white british" category so you can other everyone else is nationalist bullshit.

hermitcrab

And ultimately, we all came from Africa's rift valley. We are all immigrants in the UK. It is just a matter when.

trextrex

Which are the indigenous ethnic groups experiencing dissolution?

FiniteField

White British is an ethnic umbrella recognised by the British government. In the last recorded statistics, the White British population in Britain had been reduced to 54% by births, and dropping significantly each year. A generation ago Britain was 90-95% White British. It's a staggering, utterly unprecedented rate of demographic change that historians will look back on with the same or greater significance as the Anglo-Saxon or Norman invasions.

jimnotgym

And Sycamore is an invasive non-native species that gets actively removed from ancient forest as a weed.

JimDabell

If you like this, you might also like OpenTrees.org:

> OpenTrees.org is the world's largest database of municipal street and park trees, produced by harvesting open data from dozens of different sources.

https://opentrees.org/

hermitcrab

opentrees.org seems to have very little data on the UK.

whywhywhywhy

love the idea and the data but the map just being kinda broken ruins this, the markers disappear when you zoom in, doesn't show the image of the tree when you click on it.

if you were trying to find interesting trees to visit with this in a browsing way it would be tedious.

hermitcrab

It is perhaps just a bit overloaded from the HN attention.

hermitcrab

Brilliant resource. I'm not sure about the word 'inventory' though. Wikipedia says:

"a quantity of the goods and materials that a business holds for the ultimate goal of resale, production or utilisation"

I hope that ancient trees are more than that.

Namari

Good idea, though it's failing to load when you point to another city than the one that was loaded automatically

metalman

there was an(old old) tree, and surounding medow destroyed for a roundabout(recent), not just any tree, but one with a literary conection, the authors name escapes me, the house of the author is part of the councils holdings, as was the tree and medow, but, famously, as per another author, "but roundabouts must be built", england somewhere , last 3-4 years

conorjh

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