The side hustle from hell
92 comments
·April 28, 2025constantcrying
hinkley
Too many fantasy tales of overnight successes out there. It takes an enormous amount of work to make things look easy - in a commercial setting. Some people just pick things up and are relatively good at them but they cannot explain it and they don’t understand it so they can’t make a business out of it and they cannot become top of their field because they lack the fundamentals and the work ethic.
I could talk anybody to death with all of my ideas. I only get to work on very few of them. I can’t imagine how sad a life it would be to only have one. It’s great for mentoring though because there’s always something shiny on the shelf and I can let them window shop for one they like.
jakey_bakey
I certainly should have spotted this as soon as they offered me a contract that was a clumsily-reworded version of the contract for the awful overseas contractors
juliansimioni
Like many, I also had an experience like this in my younger days: obviously unfit product, early prototype made by bottom-of-the-barrel contractors, co-founders who can't code, no salary, no users.
I got lucky, and spent only a few months while not working that hard.
But at the same time, this quote hits home:
>I was doing a startup. I was executing, and for the first time in my professional life I wasn’t insulated from the results. I didn’t achieve my destiny of great things, but I’d built something.
jakey_bakey
Right? I literally can't even call it a proper warning because of how much I took out of it.
My whole career was jumpstarted by my second startup (we only got to preseed but it was a great two years) and there's no way I'd have been as good a fit without this experience
bruce511
I think you nailed it here.
>> I hope that by reading this story, I can protect some of you from 11 months of pain.
That's not how experience works. What you really did was get an 11 month business education. And again, you can tell your story, but you can't pass on that education.
I'm glad you moved on to better things. And I think you're saying that this experience prepared you for that, and you were a better overall entrepreneur because of it.
Thats how experience works.
skeeter2020
But maybe he can compress someone else's terrible experience down to 6 or 3 months, or stop them from sinking their own money (or that of family/friends) into an obvious faliure. There's another failures to go around; we don't all need to life every one of them.
jakey_bakey
Absolutely - I mention this at the end. This experience was a springboard into my first “real” startup, and I’ve been working my way up fast since then!
wibbily
Currently at a startup that did the same thing wrt having their app built overseas. Protip: don't. Endless bullshit, excruciating trying to get anything out of them. We ended up with an app just like this guy's, locked aspect ratio and all.
If I find another startup whose product is an app, and they can't find a local developer to write that app, I'm running. Why outsource your core product!?
jakey_bakey
It's the classic case of believing that ideas at 90% of the value and execution is something you can delegate. Think Kendall from Succession.
constantcrying
Because there are legions of people out there who want to be "entrepreneurs", so they come up with "business ideas". They can't make these ideas into reality by themselves, as they lack all technical skill. This lack of skill also means that they can not manage a project, as they lack a basic understanding of how software project works.
paulorlando
Liked this: "Startup pitch competitions are mostly a waste of time—validation comes from talking to users and iterating, not from impressing a judge."
dabinat
This article reminded me of the time a guy wanted to pitch his startup idea for me to develop. He wanted me to sign an NDA before telling me, as the idea was so great that I would obviously steal it, which I refused.
So all he would tell me is that it was “the next Twitter”, and from what I could gather, he would retain the majority of the equity and I would do all of the work, while he lobbed ideas at me from on high.
I passed on it, but only because the red flags were extremely obvious. I could certainly see a situation where I might have been sucked into something more subtly exploitative.
bitbasher
The first red flag is a startup that is contingent on a two sided marketplace... damn that's a tough place to be!
OtherShrezzing
An additional red flag - if your company lists "being SEIS registered" as a point of traction, run a mile. Literally every newly registered UK company can get this by spending 60 minutes filling out a form that says "my company is risky, I intend to raise money from VCs".
jakey_bakey
“This will be a great differentiator when looking for funding!”
vessenes
Oof. Sorry. Missed in this story because Jacob is in Europe/UK is that this level of absolute incompetence in a launch team is, in my experience, extra common on that side of the pond.
There are of course some fantastic startups launched out of the UK and Europe. Spotify, Deepmind and Raspberry Pi come to mind. But, as a rule on the investment side, I'm always super skeptical. Inevitably cap tables are worse, investors have a very different view of their roles than they do in US or Asia, and there's so much less startup infrastructure than in SV or say Singapore or Shanghai that it's a very different world. Ironically, it's self-feeding -- investors think startups are shitty business, they charge more, high quality founders head for greener pastures -- rinse and repeat.
jakey_bakey
Haha to be fair I have been adjacent to lots of startups like this. I also spent a few months attending weekly zoom calls for a side hustle that was effectively some mid level bored corporate people blowing off steam. They were a few steps behind getting a bankloan.
pizzathyme
Rather than being a cautionary tale, I actually think this is the kind of misadventure that everybody should have. You learn so much about the real world from a failed startup where nothing is done right (at least I did). Your early 20s are the perfect time to do it with little risk. Lots of painful memories I laugh at later. Highly recommended.
Aurornis
This is the classic dead-end startup story from beginning to end. It checks all the boxes:
- 3 non-technical cofounders
- Flurry of activity for everything other than acquiring customers
- Attempt to outsource development followed by disappointment
- Relentless scope creep
- Zero go to market plan, just an incessant belief that more features in the app will solve all problems
There is also one less obvious point that is buried in the article:
> Simultaneously, my underpaid mid-level consultancy role passed me up for promotion again. I wanted out, double-time.
I did volunteer mentoring for a while. Few people went all-in on unpaid startup jobs as their primary role, but many were tempted to do it as side projects. They always believe it’s less risky. The risk they don’t see is that it distracts them from their main job, either slowing career growth or risking a PIP or layoff.
The common thread I kept coming back to was this: Ignore the side projects. Focus on career growth at your day job. Put your primary energy into growing your career or finding a job where you can.
Something about the side hustle continues to lure people into thinking it’s a way out, until they burn themselves out and sabotage their day job while doing it.
zelda420
Throughout my long career in the tech industry, from established giants like Oracle to a hyper-growth pre-IPO Airbnb, I've observed a consistent pattern: engineers rarely advance more than one level above their initial hiring position, regardless of their performance or tenure.
The only exception were juniors who could rise to a senior. But senior to staff, or whatever you want to call it is almost unheard of unless you jump ship.
mattgreenrocks
It's a professional version of "a prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives."
Familiarity begets being taken for granted, and undervaluation, which hurts one's promotion case.
bathtub365
Over about 10 years I moved from mid level developer to director (through senior, team lead, engineering manager, sr engineering manager) at the same company. It was a small company that grew and the founders/high level engineers actually saw the value in retaining and growing people and had interesting enough work to keep people from getting bored, so we had high retention.
Many of these promotions were out of cycle (because there was no cycle) and now that I’m at a bigger company I see how this would be much more difficult. There seems to be little interest in really retaining and growing engineering talent and all promotions are at the mercy of an entrenched HR org that doesn’t understand the work that anyone is doing. On top of that budgets are generally much tighter now than I’ve ever seen during my career.
It may still be possible to do this at smaller companies, with the obvious caveat that there’s always the danger of title inflation, though now that I’m at a bigger company I feel like I see more title inflation around me than I ever did at the smaller company. There are also entrenched structures of power that are obviously working against the success of the company and are causing good people to leave.
I do wonder if more companies embraced promotions it would lead to a healthier organizational culture in general since you’d have more people around who were involved in creating it.
jimbokun
It seems like the simplest reason for the discrepancy in behaviors is that in the small company, the higher level roles came into being organically as the company grew. Where as at the already established large company, to get a higher level role you almost have to take it from someone else. Or wait for a vacancy.
WWLink
Just over 10 years in space stuff, I have noticed exactly the same thing.
jakey_bakey
Lol I have had one promotion in my life and it was mid-Junior
That said, I have only moved jobs 2x in 9 years (my second startup failing doesn't count)
greatpostman
Yup. You get Bucketed and there is no growth
Aurornis
> The only exception were juniors
The article mentions being an early career junior in the first few sentences.
aresant
"Flurry of activity for everything other than acquiring customers"
In 16 years on HN this is one of the best pieces of startup advice I've seen.
Default should be 10% of time on MVP and landing page, 90% on distribution until you smell PMF.
Fight violently against any suggestion you invest more heavily in product until somebody is in tears about keeping up with demand for your MVP.
jakey_bakey
Bingo. Tbh I have done personal projects where I am guilty of this.
jakey_bakey
Amazing analysis. To be fair, I think there were a lot of reasons I was passed for promotion at Deloitte. I can grind like a mofo but am a terrible fit for client-facing roles (AuDHD).
joshdavham
TIL AuDHD = "Autistm + ADHD".
jakey_bakey
Same, I saw it on Twitter and just wanted to use it :D
mattgreenrocks
Excellent analysis.
> Something about the side hustle continues to lure people into thinking it’s a way out, until they burn themselves out and sabotage their day job while doing it.
Side projects are a way to assert control. The siren song is that you can build your own way out of corporate hell and have a shot at growth (be that financial/personal/etc) without needing 10 randos and 3 committee meetings from your company to sign off on a promotion. In that light, I think it is a very reasonable response.
I think it's a symptom of how crappy and ambiguous leveling feels over the long-term. You're told that nothing's definite, just work hard and deliver results, and you'll make it.
Juliate
> This is the classic dead-end startup story from beginning to end. It checks all the boxes:
Oh my... I concur. I've been in the very exact same stupid play about 10 years ago. 3 cofounders, not one to understand tech, 1 hired me as a consultant, then invited me with a few shares and a salaried CTO role to build the solution, and it's been the exact same scenario.
Do not, ever, associate (figuratively or contractually) yourself with people you wouldn't go hiking with in the wild for one full week, and coming back from it craving for the next time.
Even if you can't stand being in the same car for one hour, don't work with them at all.
miek
Side hustles can be very fruitful! While not tech related, I side hustled with a friend into starting a specialty wet wipe manufacturing business that we ran for 4 years and sold. The side hustle phase was done on PTO and weekends. We worked with the machine maker to get samples that we took to restaurant/hospitality expos to gauge demand. We made a deal with the machine supplier to send finished goods until the machines arrived. Four years later we sold it and I went back to corporate life. It was worth 100x an MBA.
Aurornis
> The side hustle phase was done on PTO and weekends.
Having a physical business and operating it on PTO and weekends is the cleanest way to keep it separate from work.
The tech side hustle mistake is to get a tech job, then think you'll do some more tech work as a side hustle. Some people can keep a clean separation, but more commonly people slide into blurring the lines between day job and side job. Trying to build a startup MVP while working a consulting job is basically doing two tech jobs at the same time, with predictable outcomes for both.
toast0
> unpaid startup jobs
Unpaid job is an oxymoron. If they can't or won't pay you, it's either volunteer work, or a hobby. Why do charity work for a business that thinks it's going to be big; there's plenty of funding out there, let them find it and then they can pay you, and you can do work for them.
If you want to do an hour or a day or maybe even a week of work for free, ok. Maybe that's fun and interesting and you get something out of that, but after that if you're not getting anything, why would you keep doing it?
null
jakey_bakey
It's easy to be naive as a dev in your mid 20s. It's easy to sell a vision of billionaire startup success to a naive person. Often we sell it to ourselves.
toomuchtodo
Feels like there should be the equivalent of Matt Levine's "Certificate of Dumb Investment" for this scenario. ~90% of startups fail. Your equity is statistically likely to be worth $0. You will likely grind for years with nothing to show for it except the experience, your network, and whatever cash comp you collected. Proceed accordingly.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24285305
(edit: totally fine to still jump into a startup role if you're not optimizing for quality of life and economics; I did because I enjoyed the work and the team)
StefanBatory
Because you need experience. At least in my country, unpaid internships are the norm; and you won't be taught anything, or held to a lower standard. You just do the job that you'd be normally paid for, just for free.
And even then, I had a few friends that had to go for another few months of unpaid job (not internship) later on. Because nobody would hire them without experience, and some companies don't consider internship to be one.
codingwagie
I think its completely possible to start a side business, people just dont 100% validate business ideas before building
eqmvii
Lovely article. The payoff of "I loved every minute of it" after all the agony and missed red flags really hit home.
jakey_bakey
Thank you for reading :)
ChuckMcM
I love this story. Why? Because it is the story of so many startups. I was so perplexed in the mid-90's when the dot com "boom" had started by people who wanted to do a "startup" but had no idea what that meant. Like the author, people with a feeling of Destiny that they would be some leader of something that everyone talked about. I had the same beliefs when I left Sun where clearly I would never be "famous" but by starting a company that became big? Sure anyone could do that. And in fact, a peer at Sun for whom I felt was not particularly qualified at anything, had gone on to a startup which had then gone public and made millions! And if he could do it, well it was guaranteed for me, right? Yeah, no.
At the other end of my career and looking back it becomes possible to see things that you missed on the journey, the role of luck, the difference between talking hard and working hard, and the critical importance of the people involved. A million monkeys with a million typewriters won't eventually create Shakespeare's works, they will waste a lot of resources and create a bunch trash. I also discovered that there are people who, when they speak, you really want to believe what they are saying. Being able to step back and say "what's the foundation here? Why should I believe this?" can be very difficult.
praptak
A million monkeys with a million typewrites will statistically have one lucky monkey who creates an extremely successful product which also looks very dumb and very unconvincing ("Srsly? You want to make money from random people hosting strangers in their own rooms?" Bang, AirBnB)
The problem is selection bias. A startup is 3 monkeys tops, so the chances of that are appropriately low and if the product looks dumb and unconvincing, it probably is ("...but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.")
ChuckMcM
There should probably be an entire chapter written on "Okay, but what if the product was desirable but not 'technically' legal, hmmm?" :-)
praptak
It would say "we all know how it went" :)
jimbokun
I would say good luck finding enough very successful companies NOT matching that description to fill a chapter.
jakey_bakey
Do you think a million monkeys with a million typewriters could come up with Oracle Database 11?
jimbokun
Is an existence proof allowed?
_DeadFred_
Pitch: It's a replacement for Blockbuster. But instead of going and getting instant gratification and getting to watch the movie you want to watch tonight, you create a wishlist and we send you 3 titles off that list (normally the 3 least popular), which may or may not be what you want to watch right now, and add the convenience of injecting the United States Post Office into the process.
Having non-technical founders who failed to even outsource their project is an enormous red flag. Nobody there knew how to make the product a reality and if it is you who is doing 100% of the work, then you obviously deserve 100% of the equity. "Having an idea" is not worth equity.
If you thought the idea was great, there was an obvious golden opportunity for you, none of the people there are going to make this into a product, but you can. If the idea was bad, getting paid in equity means getting paid in something worthless.
The only situation where it is reasonable to deal with such a totally defunct organization is if they pay you a lot of money. And if there is a single missed payment you stop any work until you are paid.