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Reversing the Fossilization of Computer Science Conferences

zero_k

The main issue I see is that papers are actually becoming so focussed on form that they are now unreadable. People prefer reading my blog for my papers than reading the papers themselves. In fact I hear people telling me they understood the blog _better_. The whole academic writing shtick has become so obtuse that not only writing is cumbersome, but so is reading.

The other side of all this academic brownie points via papers (and doing reviews, which has become "brownie points for gatekeeping") is that most academic software is not only unmaintained, but actually unusable. They rarely even compile, and if they do, there is no --help, no good defaults, no README, and no way to maintain them. They are single-use software and their singular use is to write the paper. Any other use-case is almost frowned upon.

One of the worst parts of Academic software is that if you re-write it in a ways that's actually usable and extensible, you can't publish that -- it's not new ("research") work. And you will not only have to cite the person who wrote the first useless version forever, but they will claim they have done it if your tool actually takes off.

BTW, there are academics who don't follow this trend. I am glad that in my field (SAT), some of the best, e.g. Armin Biere and Randal Bryant are not like this at all. Their software is insanely nice and they fix bugs many-many years after release. Notice that they are also incredibly good engineers.

bluGill

Unfortunately academic resource doesn't seem to be focused on the hard problems of today. A fast algorithm is nice, but we need to be able to maintain code long term, understand code, and fix bugs. I have 15 million lines of code I'm supposed to maintain and I know many others reading this work on larger projects. There is no way one human can write that much software. There is no way we can afford to throw it away even if there is a better way (well we could, but based on the last time we did that the cost would be over 1 billion dollars and 8 years - not a useful investment since there is no reason to think anything will make those prices go down). We need to keep it working.

This is a shock to many of our leaders - who were writing 8 bit assembly to do similar things. They commonly did throw away all the work of the last version since it only took them a few months to rewrite it for the exact features they needed. (having experience because they wrote it just a year ago means the rewrite as much faster, and the limitations of 8 bit means it was worth rewriting since they had to remove one feature to add a new one).

rtkwe

That's not a part of computer science that's organizational and process management at that point not computer science so I'm not shocked CS academics aren't interested in it. You're looking at the wrong group to answer your question, we have a great amount of discussion about how to organize large software to make it manageable already too but most of it comes down to breaking it into more manageable chunks with defined interfaces and testing that interface thoroughly.

amarcheschi

there is only 1 implementation available for an algorithm on which i did part of my bs internship, and it uses a lot of harcoding. It of course makes benchmarking and extending it much, much harder if you want to change some things

examples here https://github.com/search?q=repo%3AIBM%2FFedMA%20hard&type=c...

these hard coded parts are not easily adjustable

matthewdgreen

A big part of the problem here is that Universities have increasingly begun attaching prestige to specific “top” conference publications for both ranking and faculty promotions. A good example of the phenomenon can be seen in [1] (sorry for the noun-citation!) which only gives credit for approximately three conferences in each field. Combine this with a flood of new researchers entering CS, you have a recipe for “top” conferences being essentially destroyed and filled with uninspired work.

(And contrary to the joke in the article, even your own work becomes uninspired when you ship it to those conferences. You can’t afford to be quirky or interesting.)

Fortunately every field has a fourth or fifth-tier conference that isn’t on this list (or a specialized topic conference that the rankings folks don’t care about), and those still serve the purposes that conferences were made for. You just might not be able to convince a ranking-obsessed administrator that your work has any value if you publish there.

[1] https://csrankings.org/

cscheid

(I imagine you agree, so this is just to expand) a secondary, insidious issue is that administrators diffuse their rules through the bureaucracy. In the case of CS, you start seeing references to csrankings in recommendation letters for grad applications, faculty applications, or even tenure letters. At that point, it can be hard to fight against it.

jltsiren

Note how the author talks about "main conferences", "major conferences", and "top conferences". That's the root issue. Whenever there is prestige available, people will compete for it. And if you have a competition, you should formalize the rules to make it fair.

When I was doing PhD ~15 years ago, I noticed that I rarely cited work that appeared in the top conferences of the subfield. Those conferences covered so wide range of topics that often only 1 or 2 papers were in the same subsubfield as me. And even those were often not directly relevant to my work.

But then there were small specialized conferences that had plenty of interesting papers every year. I left CS for another field a decade ago, but I still regularly attend some of those conferences and review for them. The papers published in them are still interesting and relevant to my work.

auggierose

What are you doing now?

mehulashah

There’s a larger problem here beyond careerization that is going unsaid. People are using these metrics as an assessment of their self worth. I’ve had top researchers point out that such and such publication was accepted in the industrial track vs research track, and how important it was to keep that flag in the bibliographical data, even well after publication in a top conference. Most papers research or industrial stay in obscurity. The truly novel ones will catch like wildfire. The metricization of research and academic standing is the underlying culprit.

jp57

When I started my PhD in CS/AI in the late 90s, my department's AI faculty was already telling us, "at the major conferences, all the action is in the workshops." And this was my experience, the workshops were indeed where you found the most engaging experiences and interesting new things.

Meanwhile the work at the main at the main conference of AAAI or ICML was much farther along, and the value of having it presented at a conference, rather than a journal, was minimal. The conventional wisdom was, "the talk is just an advertisement for the paper."

red_admiral

Unfortunately it's becoming an increasing problem that travel is not equally safe depending on your nationality, destination, and other factors. CRYPTO, the annual "S-tier" conference in California, has already let people attend virtually online, and is considering its options for next year.

Any conference that announces itself as being proudly diverse and inclusive will have to have some difficult board meetings this year. It's not just the US, there's several countries in Europe that need a closer look at too. I hear Canada and the Nordic countries are fairly safe.

The whole show up to conferences internationally to network and put attendace on your CV thing is also not great for people looking after children, among others.

In practice if you want discussion and citation for your cryptography paper, it has to go on IACR eprint at some point. Being published in CRYPTO is still a major endorsement, but not the way people actually get hold of a copy these days.

graemep

> Unfortunately it's becoming an increasing problem that travel is not equally safe depending on your nationality, destination, and other factors.

It seems to get a lot more attention now that people from a different type of country are getting affected.

> Any conference that announces itself as being proudly diverse and inclusive will have to have some difficult board meetings this year. It's not just the US, there's several countries in Europe that need a closer look at too. I hear Canada and the Nordic countries are fairly safe.

Do you mean safe for individuals or a choice of venue?

In the UK (which is the country I know best) individuals are fine once they get a visa, but its not a safe choice in terms of planning because the granting of visas for people from certain countries is unpredictable (so people you expect to be able to attend might not be allowed to).

red_admiral

Safe for individuals, mainly.

The UK right now is also trying to figure out who can use what bathrooms. I don't understand the details myself.

graemep

The legal question (that was settled by a recent case) was whether the word woman in existing legislation includes transwomen. The particular case was primarily whether transwomen could qualify for preference given to women for certain posts "on the boards of certain public authorities in Scotland".

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/judgments/uksc-2024-0042

The toilets things getting the publicity is more a matter of the media being obsessed with that aspect of it. Obviously there are implications for that, but also for many other things.

bobalob

Bathrooms are only a small part of this.

The Supreme Court ruling will also ensure that males are not present in women's prisons, women's hospital wards, women's sports, domestic violence refuges for women, and many other spaces designated as being single-sex.

It also confirms that, in law, sexual orientation is defined in terms of sex. One of the intervenors in the case included lesbian groups who were concerned that legal recognition of the rights of lesbian women would be rendered meaningless if heterosexual males could simply identify as such.

As for bathrooms, they are one of the few facilities for which access is based on trust. The activists who insist that they're going to use opposite-sex bathrooms regardless of what the law says are confirming that they can't be trusted to respect boundaries and stay out. Which says a lot really.

dynm

I think the example of how to "correctly" cite a paper actually makes this issue seem smaller than it is. In reality, these conferences have very complicated (and unstated) "rules" for how a paper is supposed to look. If an "outsider" wanders in and submits a paper with new ideas, it will be very obvious that they are not a "member of the community" and their paper will usually be treated much more harshly as a result. This adds a huge amount of friction to research.

And what's particularly frustrating is that many organizers will try to combat this by writing papers saying they "particularly encourage" papers that are interdisciplinary, or focused on less fashionable topics, etc. It's good that they are trying to change things, but I think the main effect in practice is to encourage people to spend their time writing papers that have little chance of being accepted.

This issue isn't at all unique to computer science, though. Try publishing a paper in a top economics journal as an outsider!

Joker_vD

I am fairly certain this rule was there against an obnoxious citing style of "The lambda calculus [1] was intended as a foundation for mathematics". It is especially obnoxious in the case of CS because when you cite e.g. "as Johns comments in his article about future developments of the programming languages [1963a]" it is quite important to know that this paper is actually from 1963 and can be mostly disregarded except as a historic curiosity; yet I've seen people vehemently defending this "[1]" style.

MaxBarraclough

Is citation style really an issue? Even if they don't state which style they expect, surely you can tell their expected style from their existing publications? With proper tooling (e.g. LaTeX+BibTeX) it's pretty painless to switch styles.

Joker_vD

Here's that rant of a blog from D.J. Bernstein [0] about how "[3, 7, 42]" citation style is superior and promotes scientific progress that I was thinking about when I wrote my comment. I personally find most of his reasoning pretty unconvincing; and so while I understand Meyer's irritation, I have to say I have to side with OOPSLA here. After all, you'd also probably want the submitted papers to be written in somewhat better than 5th-grade-high-school-student's English, and don't have way too many typos (I talk like ~15 typos per page).

[0] https://blog.cr.yp.to/20240612-bibkeys.html, previously discussed on HN here [1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40662056

mnky9800n

The only time I like numbers is writing proposals and I only like it because it saves space. Other than that I much prefer (name, year) if I am to have a preference at all.

lou1306

Adding to the frustration, (the lack of) these shibboleths partially undermine double-blind reviewing, which is on the rise in prestigious conferences. A reviewer from the in-group may immediately spot that a submission comes from the out-group.

zoobab

The publication of scientific papers is broken too:

1. authors that just reviewed the paper, did not do anything substential 2. papers that do not ship with working code 3. papers that are meaningless

mnky9800n

Yes papers not having working code is very annoying and anti intellectual. I wrote a substack about this recently because I review a lot of papers that essentially are trash because the authors do not provide working codes:

https://open.substack.com/pub/mnky9800n/p/how-to-format-code...

s1mplicissimus

A great link nugget from the article: https://wp.doc.ic.ac.uk/cairesfe/wp-content/uploads/sites/80... - a parody on how some historically very significant papers might be rejected in today's system. made me chuckle a lot

grunder_advice

In AI/ML job ads it is quite typical for the requirements to include, "must have published at top AI conferences include but not limited to NeuroIPS, ICML, ICLR, ...etc", which I find completely crazy, because it just incentivizes grad students to publish rubbish papers to have on their CV, and indeed most conference papers in AI/ML are complete rubbish, because it is trivial to take any architecture and any corresponding benchmark, tweak the architecture slightly and publish a paper. Even dud results are published as "promising". It's just a complete shitshow, and as somebody who is in the field it feels as though you cannot even complain because people get offended. You're just supposed to keep spinning the hamster wheel without posing any hard questions. Moreover, having published at top conferences does not prove that somebody is going to be a good ML Engineer. It just proves that somebody knows how to write a compelling conference paper, which is a completely different skill set altogether.

ash-ali

imo its a little more difficult to publish at these conferences using: "take any architecture and any corresponding benchmark, tweak the architecture slightly and publish a paper". at t2-t3 conferences ... sure.

relaxing

The reason behind the citation style is to serve the automated parsing of citations by research information systems, which can then roll up all of your contributions to the field into a single score which determines one’s entire worth in academia.

The author really should have recognized this, as it serves his point about careerism and brownie points.

The idea that being forced into a citation style stifles innovation is hilarious, especially coming from a computer scientist - formal systems are all we do. It’s not so hard, is it? Use a citation manager and have them generated for you!