Tesla sales in Europe down 45% in January

Well, to me, he used to represent technological ambition, impossible achievements made real. Now he represents foreign interference, social violence and neo fascism. And we, European (and especially French people), have a very very low tolerance for social violence and fascism.

Not the OP, but to me it's all of it. Just the nazi salutes would be enough for me not to buy Teslas (or StarLink), but at this point I would avoid any US car.

Definitely wouldn't buy a car from someone who feels it's ok to do a couple of nazi salutes in a very public way.

Clearly, if you want to buy a Tesla because of "Ecology" and "the Planet", there is no reason to do so anymore as your purchase directly funds the exact opposite of what you want to achieve. Same with superchargers.

> I do not really feel there is much political significance in what car you buy

It is who you pay. You are directly supporting him with the purchase.

Looking at Tesla resale values and the reliability issues over longer periods of ownership it’s just a sane consumer decision.

Elon vs Reform UK is extremely funny, because Reform is the wholly owned pet project of Richard Tice. A local real estate guy who's a mere millionaire and unimpressed at a foreign billionaire trying to run him over with superior money.

I'm British and think Elon Musk does a lot of cool things. I don't really care about what he does in American politics, I actually think the idea that government needs to stop wasting money is a good thing.

But he tries to influence European/British politics without living here, often believing mistruths or things out of context. Americans moan (rightfully so) when Europeans try get involved in their politics, but are happy to do the reverse.

Regarding Tesla, the UK/EU is going to make zero effort to protect Tesla from Chinese imports that the US will. Musk has burned that bridge.

I have a friend who bought a Tesla almost a decade ago. He still owns it, but he is not proud of it and jokingly calls it "the Swasticar".

I'd like to warn that VW's latest ID models still suffer from the same UI/UX problems and sluggishness reported when they arrived.

BYD too, I've seen more and more of their models lately.

Even Citroen has an EV Berlingo and that model is the bread and butter of Southern Europe.

I've been lusting after an ioniq 5 (preferably N).

Tesla are not even as cool as Hyundai these days.

To me, people who ever said or believed 'vote with your wallet' or 'consumers made their choice' then complained about boycott or people not buying/threatening not to buy specific brands are hypocritical (and those unaware of how hypocritical they are are just idiots, because it's obvious).

You're entitled to your own opinion, but one of the few things you can do as an individual is choose carefully what you buy.

I do care, and I understand why many people do care as well. But again, it's your right not to care.

Strong brands and marketers disagree with your perception of brands. People buy brands, they buy stories, they want to support what they like.

>getting me from A to B safely and cheaply

And how do you expect that to be true when Elon, through his political power, has all regulators under his thumb?

Ah, the irony of suggesting anyone who isn't thoughtlessly consuming is an "NPC"

You’re not going to guilt anyone into buying a Tesla.

Even if you see it as a white good and not as activism then surely the fact that the resale value will be much lower may assist your decision, unless you're being an activist and choosing the car specifically for what it stands for, no?

What's wrong with making just one moral choice? Isn't it better than making zero moral choices?

People do what they can, based on what they believe is right (which you may well disagree with), their knowledge, skills, money and time available. That may not be all that much, they might be ill informed, but it is _something_. Perfect is the enemy of good.

Not giving a cent to Elon Musk seems like a reasonable cause if you believe he's gonna use that money for nefarious things. And at least for the things he's (very) publicly involved in, it's quite easy. Most people doing nefarious things do it in the shadows, and are funded in difficult to understand ways.

People judging each other for who they support by giving them money seems fair. You make some great points about what else they would probably see as problematic. This sounds like it could be a fruitful conversation without the name calling.

> To me, a car is a white good... As long as it fulfills my needs, getting me from A to B safely and cheaply, that's all I care.

Given that the resale value is the most significant factor of "cheaply" in a £40,000 asset, a negative brand image is an important factor here - even if you consider your fellow citizens to be NPCs.

I'd argue that, as horrible as that was, it wasn't as centered in one person as famous and important as Musk. Like buying phones we know were perhaps made by people treated like slaves in China, versus buying something that is represented by one famous person that wants to bring back slavery.

What a ridiculous comparison!

VW didn't even build cars for consumers during the war years.

The British Military Government rebooted Volkswagen after they firebombed the Nazis to the ground and hung a few of the ringleaders.

https://www.volkswagen-group.com/en/volkswagen-chronicle-173...

Do you think many people opposing the Nazis were buying VWs during the war?

"Those Nazis are killing our soldiers right now in the north, but I will still buy one of their good cars", said nobody.

At least you could buy a VW from 1945 on and not finance the Nazi war machine.

But before that? You were a clear collaborator.

If you can't charge an electric car, you shouldn't take a hybrid either, it's the same problem. If you only charge the battery when braking the overall CO2 footprint over the lifecycle of the car is higher than if you had a thermal vehicle.

The reason is a combination of markedly higher CO2-equivalent emissions for manufacturing (two motors instead of one + big battery), increased weight for the same reason which causes an increase in fuel consumption + elevated tire/brakes degradation + decommissioning of the car causes more emissions. And this doesn't include the other negative externalities such as the ecological impact of the additional metal and rare earth extraction.

Hybrid cars only make sense from a CO2 perspective if you charge them and drive exclusively on electricity inside cities, with only an occasional fuel refill before long distance trips.

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be a no-brainer for the owner of the building to layer the roof with solar panels and fill the garage with chargers? Seems like free money in a country with lots of sunshine.

An important factor for choosing hybrid is that it must have the same benefits as an EV.

In Denmark there has been a trial in Copenhagen, where fossil fueled cars AND hybrids were not allowed on a particular road, only EVs were allowed.

Yes, a bit tangential, but I feel hybrids were discarded too quickly (the 2030/35 ban on new petrol cars includes hybrids) when they should have probably been encouraged as a stepping stone and because indeed in many European areas charging at home is a challenge.

I dropped my car to dealership and asked them to do MOT for me as service. They will first check everything and likely call me for approval to fix it. Or if under warranty do the repairs under warranty without prompt. Thus clear visible issues will be handled even before car arrives in inspection. This covers things like tires, lights, but also suspension components or if OBH tells something is wrong.

In general the inspection is not even attempted if there is something to fix.

There should be no scheduled maintenance the first two or three years, other than maybe tires and oil change, but skipping those don't "cause defects".

Typical faults that cause failure are; uneven brake force, badly aligned headlights, uneven tire wear, play and wear in suspension components, and so on.

That's not it. He did that stuff to frame it as a tech company not as a car company. WeWork did the same thing. If you are seen as a tech company. Not just another normal company then you can justify the ludicrous evaluations you are getting. While dismissing questions about why your company is worth more than any of your competitor with saner financial statements.

Chinese cars are already effectively barred from the USA.

Nope. There's no way to disguise or explain away his recent actions: Elon's actions are clearly those of a person who has grudges against certain segments of society and wants to use political power to fix them.

If he just wanted tariffs on China he could have just imitated Miriam Adelson: give the Trump campaign $200M & state your demands without mincing words. Or, split the amount between both parties and ride whichever horse that comes out on top.

I honestly and unironically think that our EV(a Volkswagen e-UP) is what most buyers actually want, but what manufacturers aren't making. It's simple, everything inside is using normal analogue dials including the one for battery level, it gets ~150-180 miles of range out of its 36kWh battery(even Tesla doesn't do those kinds of efficiency numbers), it doesn't have satnav just a factory holder for your phone.......that's all you need. You get in, turn(!!!) the key and go. It works day in and day out. No software updates, no phantom braking, no beeping at you because it read a sign wrong....it's what an EV(and I'd argue - any car) should be. Obviously package it in a larger body for people who need the space(eGolf exists and uses exact same EV drivetrain), but yeah stop cramming EVs with every gadget under the sun, most people don't want it and they certainly don't want to be paying for it.

Cars are one of the most brand and image driven purchases that people make, certainly when weighted by cost.

There's very little cold logical thought involved in most new car purchases.

This should clarify a few things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

Have you ever talked to carbon based humanoid life forms before?

>Does “salesman” figure actually affect your choice of car?

If I have multiple choices that are equivalent then I will use other criterias like "Am I giving money to nazis?"

Yes, yes it does. Why is it inconceivable that people don't want to give money to Musk? It's called voting with your wallet. I may like the car, but I deeply disagree with the business owner's views and deranged behavior over the last couple of years. The easiest thing I can do is to give my money to someone else instead.

Ultimately it doesn't matter whether Musk truly believes some of the lunacy he says, his actions speak for him. I disagree with his actions and don't want to support him. He could make the best car in the world for all I care.

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How it used to work maybe, meme stocks are not tied to any performance or prediction other than stock going up.

Exactly, which is why this stock is going to zero. ZERO.

In the US, cars are a huge part of people's identity, and brand is everything. It's a major purchase and a multi-year commitment.

Imagine you don't follow politics closely, but you're in the market for a car sometime in the next 12 months. All of a sudden when you go to the Tesla dealership, you have to fight your way past protesters. You start to see Teslas spray painted with swastikas for some reason. You hear the phrase "swasticar."

Tesla is destroying their most valuable asset (their brand), which takes years to build and usually can't be rebuilt. As sales begin to take a meaningful hit, institutional investors will start to get out, and it will be a feedback loop that will force the price down. They'll sell the assets to Ford for pennies.

OP, probably like me, isn't putting money against Tesla.

And at some point, reality comes crashing down.

Tesla will not dominate the autonomous taxi market. Basically every major car company has tech comparable with Tesla (Mercedes, GM, etc).

Tesla will not dominate the battery market. Heck, I think they still DON'T make their own batteries (it's all collaborations with LG Chemical and other chemical companies and they have shared licensing and stuff).

And you can fool some people all the time and all the people some time, but you can't fool all the people, all the time.

Once Tesla becomes a bit player in China (Chinese companies are ruthless), gets mauled in Europe (starting to happen), what could possibly justify their market cap? The US? It will be saturated at a certain point. India? Not growing fast enough to make up for it, the Indian economy is 1/7th the US one and Indian disposable incomes are probably 1/50th the US ones...

We all thought that the 88 mph easter-egg was an easter-egg for Back to the future. But in reality, it might be the other 88 (see, "what means 88 in germany")

I see several Teslas a day and have never thought to associate the personal property of an individual with with the political beliefs of a shareholder of the company that makes it.

I'm curious what you are compelled to do when you see a Volkswagen.

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They're to protect Europe's car manufacturing industry, which is a significant industry which directly and indirectly employs a lot of people and circulates a lot of money. Part of that industry is green technology, which is exactly what Europe needs to build up. Europe has a challenge in that it wants to keep local manufacturing industries but also make sure that they are environmentally and socially responsible, which costs a lot more than other countries without those concerns and cheaper costs. I'm no fan of the ridiculous trade wars but totally free trade hasn't proved to be an outright success. I know the playing fields aren't level but I don't know what the sensible middle ground solution is.

NATO will have to rethink that as well if they consider the US an unreliable partner.

Hopefully, this insanity ends in four years.

The Europeans are very aware of such a threat. There is growing support for buying only domestically produced arms.

And considering a lot of them probably are aspiring to emulate it, everyone else should be figuring out how to avoid this sort of power consolidation and capture.

The US government is not going to replace the foreign markets he's busy trashing.