Libraries and Well-Being: A Case Study from The New York Public Library
136 comments
·January 29, 2025vector_spaces
btrettel
I periodically go to the Library of Congress to read things for various side projects. It's sad how few people actually use the Library of Congress as a library. There are a lot of tourists there. I usually go to the Science and Business Reading Room, which avoids most of the tourists as they check out the Main Reading Room. But attendance is usually sparse, perhaps 2 dozen per day.
The Library of Congress is an amazing free resource with a significant fraction of what's ever been published. They too seem to be pushing more and more off-site, but not to the extent that university libraries are. I can find a lot of rare books there that I would not have access to otherwise, and I've also used their technical reports collection extensively.
I'm not sure what I would do if the various research libraries I frequent were to reduce services or close. I've been saving a ton of PDF files over the years and I guess I could make do with what I have.
liontwist
> students are reading much less than they used to, and far less in the way of physical books
There is the answer. It's really hard to justify when usage is so low.
I am not under the illusion that "everything is on the internet". The best information is in books. But it's hard to argue University libraries aren't mostly study areas, and the books are symbolic. I wouldn't be surprised if its budget is already under "alumni outreach".
This is perhaps another symptom of the weird mix of undergrad, with a government research institution attached.
gooseus
I agree they are symbolic, but I believe we should see them as a symbol of how much knowledge has been created that yet remains potentially untapped and unexplored.
https://www.themarginalian.org/2015/03/24/umberto-eco-antili...
I'm sure people would make an argument to the effect that writing that has existed for X years or decades would have already been tapped if it was of any value, and I would respond by saying many publications make little impact on their contemporaries only to be discovered later to have been ahead of their time.
If we start using "engagement" as a metric for the retention of writing, then knowledge will suffer under the tyranny of the majority. Instead I think the most unread books in a library should be celebrated and promoted by the librarians for the sake of having been unread, even if it ends up being kind of funny how bad they are.
liontwist
Sounds like a noble project. Why does each University need to do that though?
> many publications make little impact on their contemporaries only to be discovered later to have been ahead of their time.
I would say this is evidence that books do not represent a "infinitely growing body of human knowledge". Knowledge is only alive in the people using it.
cudgy
“If we start using "engagement" as a metric for the retention of writing, then knowledge will suffer under the tyranny of the majority.”
Wow, that is so well written.
It summarizes many of the problems of today and the disappointing aspects of technological effort and its applications.
threatofrain
Students do read, it's just that they prefer to burn their energy on course textbooks, which libraries have in very low supply. It's very hard to be a student that avoids buying books and instead borrows their way through university.
chefandy
Nearly impossible. Text books at the library get recalled constantly.
addicted
Space really isn’t that scarce.
Library books solely as interior design is still better than 99% of the decorative architecture campuses are covered in that use up orders of magnitude more space.
WalterBright
What is funny is that the background one sees on remote interviews on TV is nearly always a bookshelf. The books are carefully curated to give the right impression to the viewer. I wonder if the person had actually read them, or it is just window decoration.
One person had the books he'd authored lined up on his shelf.
Sadly, I rarely am able to read the titles on the spines. A bit too out of focus.
There's a great pic of Werner von Braun in his office, with the inevitable bookshelf behind him. I was able to read some of the titles, and looked them up. Classic rocket books! The ultimate nerd bookshelf.
I wonder what is on Elon's bookshelf!
liontwist
The cost for universities is the librarians, (and journal subscriptions?) not the books.
zdragnar
Even back in 2004 University libraries were under-utilized. I can only imagine they now look like ghost towns.
bee_rider
In 201X in at university they were used, but mostly as study areas.
cxr
> But it's hard to argue University libraries aren't mostly study areas
That's fine. For good study areas, you end up with a lot of dead space, anyway, which might as well be filled with books.
What sucks is libraries that are both passively and actively hostile to people trying to read and study.
atrettel
I have often heard this described as a change in how people of different generations access information. Younger people today are used to using search bars to find what they need immediately [1], but older people like myself grew up used to it taking time to find relevant information, and often had to organize the information ourselves. Younger people aren't using the library because from their perspective, information is just available everywhere and immediately available on top of that. From their perspective, there simply is not need to go to the library if you can find what you need immediately.
I personally think it is horrible that many universities are selling their physical collections, but I just want to post some reasoning as to why there is a shift in usage. As a researcher, I think that being able to get an immediate answer is often great, but the problem is that it prevents you from exploring the information more deeply and broadly. It gives you a false sense of finality that doesn't require you to question what you are reading more closely or more broadly by examining many sources (like the neighboring books on a library shelf). And when you are doing deep research, that really is a skill you need.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-direc...
zmgsabst
Perhaps it’s changed, but my experience is that most information just isn’t available online.
Eg, UW had microfiche and book collections of many periodicals going back to the 1800s, which I haven’t seen a digitized version of. By contrast, I often have trouble finding a digital article I know I read a few years ago.
Similarly, specialty libraries like the math library that had many out of print books — many of which were relevant to my own work.
atrettel
I actually agree with you completely. That is why I emphasized that I was just giving their perspective. I don't think most information is available online, let alone available online immediately.
I've even had the same experience with you even it comes to microfiche in university collections. For my PhD, I had to request a lot of older government research reports from the 1970s and 1980s. None of it was online, but a lot of it was available on microfiche. I'd request a box with a range of report numbers, wait a few days for it to come to the reading room, and then go into the reading room to read and maybe scan the report if it was relevant. And often the specific report I wanted would not be in the box when I got there, since I only knew what ranges of reports were available, not which individual report was available. I'll note again that this is a much slower process, taking days to find one relevant bit of information, but that doesn't mean it is not valuable or necessary. I've found a lot of interesting information that way, and none of it was available online at the time.
rpcope1
I absolutely believe it, but it feels so crazy as the libraries, both as a student and as a community member at various points, for the local universities are by far the most useful and important resource they provide.
WalterBright
> students are reading much less than they used to
Yup. Having the last word is to post an excerpt from a book. Wikipedia doesn't hold a candle to a real history book.
Gud
In Zürich the central library is crammed with students. Sometimes it’s hard to find a spot to sit down to study.
BrenBarn
But are they reading books? At the college campus here, there are many students in the library, but the proportion that are reading books there seems to have gone down over time.
WillAdams
>Libraries will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no libraries.
>---Anne Herbert, _The Next Whole Earth Catalog_ (1980), p 331.
starspangled
I know someone who works at a public library in a small city. A lot of their work is "managing" homeless, mentally ill, and drug addicted customers who are attracted by shelter and free computers and internet.
I don't particularly have a problem with public funds going toward that, but I don't think library staff are trained or signed up for that work, or that libraries are an appropriate and cost effective way to help these people.
I don't think libraries should be sacred. They're nice to look at and nostalgic, but are increasingly anachronisms. Specialized facilities for higher education and historical research I can see still having some use, perhaps small school libraries, but the average public library not so much. They use a lot of space, a lot of floor space for books, requires staffing.
jgoodhcg
I think the article linked is saying that libraries should be sacred _because_ they are nice to be in. They make people feel better about their life and the world based on some seemingly rigorous survey results.
IMO the mindset that everything everything has to be optimized to not use up “too much floor space” if it presumably doesn’t return enough measurable value is the kind of mentality that causes societal issues that we need nice libraries to counteract.
starspangled
> I think the article linked is saying that libraries should be sacred _because_ they are nice to be in.
Yeah, and I'm saying they shouldn't be.
> They make people feel better about their life and the world based on some seemingly rigorous survey results.
> IMO the mindset that everything everything has to be optimized to not use up “too much floor space” if it presumably doesn’t return enough measurable value is the kind of mentality that causes societal issues that we need nice libraries to counteract.
It's not that it's too much floor space, it's that it costs too much for the benefit it provides. With government expenditure in western countries approaching or even exceeding 40% of GDP with no sign of slowing and social problems that seem to be worse than ever in some cases, I would say that efficiency of government service delivery is critically important. It's not even hyper optimizing, just basic optimizing would be nice.
joebig
I get your point and posit thus: What about National Parks? Should they be sacred or should they too be butchered for 'floor space'? Large organized spaces relieve cognitive load, remove subconscious restrictions that we impose on ourselves and expand the mind. With no limits placed on the eye, the limits on the spirit dissolve as well. Nothing feels impossible. If this is not worth pursuing 'at all costs', if even this is subject to 'optimization', if unshackling of the intellect is 'not sacred': then let's begin with reclaiming land occupied by the Hagia Sophia and La Sagrada Familia.
tanaros
> It's not even hyper optimizing, just basic optimizing would be nice.
It feels a little bit like hyper optimizing. According to [0], the US spent $14.6B on libraries in 2020. The vast majority of that was from local municipalities, with state funding accounting for ~$1B and federal funding only $80M (disclaimer: I have not put any effort into verifying these numbers). It seems like our time would be better spent optimizing larger, more expensive programs before really pushing to make improvements here.
BrenBarn
> It's not that it's too much floor space, it's that it costs too much for the benefit it provides.
It costs way less than Facebook or a server farm full of GPT instances and provides more benefit and less harm. Our society has really warped the notion of what appropriate costs and benefits are.
matwood
I agree with you that librarians have a very hard job. I also think from a budgeting standpoint that public libraries overspend on best sellers, but that’s a different comment. Hah.
> I don't think libraries should be sacred.
An old business partner used to ask, “what dies first, democracy or the library?”
Libraries represent democracy and the free flow of information. Their analog nature makes them much harder to turn off or alter than a website. It’s no surprise the new admin called book bans “hoaxes” so they can continue. I fear we may learn the answer to my friend’s question.
null
bombcar
The really small towns around here have the library in the same building as the community center and police station.
Seems to help somewhat.
knowitnone
don't forget free power outlets to charge their devices.
__MatrixMan__
One thing we have at the local library which I'm surprised hasn't caught on more broadly is a maker space. They teach classes and once you've taken them you can us things like sewing machines, 3D printers/scanners, laser cutters, CNC machines etc (https://ppld.assabetinteractive.com/library-of-things/by-obj...).
cableshaft
The basement of our local library is a maker space, with a lot of that same equipment (maybe not CNC machines, but they have embroidery machines, silhouette cutters, 3d printers, laser cutters, etc), and also has sound rooms for recording podcasts or music.
I also found out last year they have an extensive manga collection (multiple shelves in both the teen and adult areas), so I've been taking advantage of that to read thousands of dollars worth of manga for free (I've bought copies of a few favorites afterwards, though).
quantumsequoia
My library has one, but it's only open for 1 hour a week, which is a shame because most 3d prints take longer than that
remram
1 hour? How do you even justify getting equipment if you don't intend for it to be used?
Those machines will be obsolete before they have been used the equivalent of 2 days.
IG_Semmelweiss
This is an excellent point. I wonder if its because of noise restrictions or just no budget to retrofit things ? It certainly is a logical next step
itishappy
Many do. It's a great upgrade!
knowitnone
that's pretty awesome and very useful!
tigerlily
Libraries are the secret weapon of the truly excellent.
My late art foundation director friend would occasionally write art theory and critiques for books and curatorial pieces, and I remember wondering how he was able to get across so many references and so much material to write so eloquently?
Of course he'd been working since the 70's, but it wasn't till I set foot in a public library that I was like "Aha... surely this was his secret weapon.".
dang
The thing I miss most about physical libraries is the serendipity of finding a book in the stacks which I would never have run across otherwise.
Online access has so many advantages, but I can't shake the feeling that it traps me within the web of my existing associations.
BrenBarn
Agreed. I mean, this applies to various kinds of things, not just libraries: there used to be many more retail stores of various kinds (record stores, video rental shops, hobby stores, whatever) where you could browse and encounter things you hadn't intended or expected to encounter.
dang
I was thinking of record stores as well. I spent so much of my life in those. Now on the rare occasion when I go into one, I have the uncanny sense of being back in the distant past, or back in a dream I had mostly woken up from.
BrenBarn
I've found myself going to thrift stores a lot more these days than I used to because they're among the dwindling number of places left where there's still that experience of browsing and frequently seeing stuff you didn't expect to see.
davidw
Powell's in Portland, Oregon is pretty amazing for precisely this reason, if you ever get a chance to go.
dang
It sure is!
gdubs
Definitely experienced this in the Los Altos public library - one of my favorites. Combing through a stack and really feeling that a librarian's mind had placed these particular groupings together.
hintymad
Was it Benjamin Franklin who established the public library system in the US? I think it was one of the greatest achievements in civilization. Every town in the US has a nice library for people to relax and to immerse themselves in knowledge or in an beautiful imaginary world.
mlsu
Andrew Carnegie basically invented the public library system as we know it in the USA. He built a library in like every town. Thousands of them, I think.
He credited reading books for his success and passed the privilege to everyone else.
WillAdams
Well, largish town in the northeast for the most part.
When my family moved to the rural county in Virginia my father chose to retire to, the county "library" was a metal carrel of used paperbacks in one corner of the basement of the old Courthouse, open two afternoons a week, staffed by a volunteers from a local ladies auxiliary --- it took almost 3 decades of fund-raising before they were able to build a library on a small plot of land donated by the local school system.
yesfitz
I'd invite you to reconsider the geographic scope and distribution of Carnegie libraries. They were not mostly "largish towns in the northeast".
Here's a list of all Carnegie Libraries in the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Carnegie_libraries_in_...
Here are the lists for the rest of the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_library#Lists_of_Carn...
Avicebron
And what's noble is that they did it right? People spent three decades just to improve the town, sounds pretty good to me.
matwood
And the one in DC is now an Apple Store.
mitchbob
According to [1], it started with Franklin:
In addition to membership libraries, Benjamin Franklin also played a role in the development of the first lending library. In 1790, Franklin donated a collection of books to a Massachusetts town that named itself after him. Though the town asked Franklin to donate a bell, he determined that "sense" was more important than "sound." Franklin residents voted for those donated books to be freely available for town members, creating the nation's first public library.
[1] https://dp.la/exhibitions/history-us-public-libraries/beginn...
6SixTy
Andrew Carnegie helped establish a whole bunch of public libraries across the US. He's probably the only reason every town has one.
liontwist
I enjoyed many library programs growing up. But my local library now is a homeless shelter and pornography rental. Luckily they have a separate area for kids, but even then it's not a place I want to leave my 4 year old outside of a 10ft radius.
It's just unfortunate that every public facility becomes an overflow for super-users, instead of addressing their needs directly.
barathr
I highly recommend Klinenberg's Palaces for the People, which he named after Carnegie's phrase for libraries. Here's an interview he did on 99% Invisible:
https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/palaces-for-the-peopl...
arjie
I wonder what reasons caused commercial libraries to be easily accessible in my home town of Chennai but the general viewpoint in my now home of San Francisco is that they can't exist. I suppose the biggest differences are cost of materials, cost of labour, and land use requirements.
Libraries do naturally arise from the first-sale doctrine here. I think they would not exist in SF but perhaps Walnut Creek etc would have some.
gharman
Commercial libraries = private library where you pay a membership fee? I’ve not really heard of that here outside of arguably university libraries and similar.
But SF public library has a couple dozen branches or more?
conradev
The Mechanics’ Institute in SF is a “historic membership library”, for one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanics%27_Institute,_San_Fr...
A lovely place
Animats
Yes. I had a membership for years. The place looks 19th century, which it is. There are multiple levels of stacks over two floors, carved dark wood, comfy chairs, and librarians who scold anyone who talks.
Members can go there, plug in a laptop, and type. Quietly. It's never crowded.
It's a well-curated, library. It's most useful if you want historical information about 19th and early 20th century technology. They have a complete bound set of Popular Mechanics, from the days when it was a serious technical publication. The multi-volume engineering study for the Panama Canal, with drawings, is there. Current offerings are well chosen and updated regularly.
vector_spaces
Came here to mention this -- private libraries are a thing in the US, but tend to not be heavily promoted, and there aren't many of them.
arjie
Yes, the one I went to as a child had a monthly fee and a per-book fee. It had a far more extensive collection than the SFPL library at 4th and Berry in a much more compact space. Most SFPL libraries appear to be homeless-support centers, which diminishes their capacity to carry books since they assign greater room to support functions. But perhaps that is the source of the value observed in the OP.
As an aside, are there university libraries one can join directly for a fee? I was under the impression they were bundled in with tuition etc. If it’s around $100/month I wouldn’t mind that, but perhaps that is an unachievable target.
CaliforniaKarl
> As an aside, are there university libraries one can join directly for a fee?
There are. Some are more open than others, but it generally comes down to "give $$, get access".
Here's Stanford's page, for example: https://library.stanford.edu/about-stanford-libraries/visit-...:
One thing worth noting, these accesses do not always include access to electronic resources. Access may only be available from computers that are in the library.
zmgsabst
At least the one near me — and it’s only $100/yr.
teleforce
Me neither.
Personally I've never heard of or been to any commercial library before, perhaps it's really good startup idea with internal coffee shop (library first, cafeteria second).
I've been to coffee and books cafe (basically cafeteria first, library second) in France and normally it's full during the day (close at 7 pm).
ghaff
In the US, there are some private archives. And university libraries with varying degrees of public access somewhat depending upon the degree that you can walk in and look like you belong. But real public libraries don't generally have a lot of restrictions.
rahimnathwani
San Francisco Public Library has an annual budget of $200 million, i.e. around $20/month per SF resident (including seniors and newborns).
Only 15% of that is spent on books and ebooks.
So perhaps the public libraries are serving most people well enough?
relaxing
Because government-run free libraries squeeze out any profit-making possibility.
_carbyau_
Thankfully.
Can you imagine a modern for-profit library?
Pay fees for access. Pay more fees to "skip the queue" for reserving books. Enjoy ads on your mandatory library app AND in your paid-for library space.
Yeeesh. No thanks. A modern public library is a simple reminder that we CAN have good things.
zdw
In asian countries there are plenty of comic cafes (manga/manhwa/manhua) that charge entry fees and provide amenities to read them.
Blockbuster and other video rental places were basically pay-per-use libraries, but not with an area to consume the media.
TehCorwiz
And they'll sell your reading habit information. And since it'd be commercial the "pen register" jurisprudence applies meaning that the government can use it to put you on a list. This last point is prevented for public libraries because being part of the government they're bound from gathering that kind of information under the first amendment.
vector_spaces
These exist -- see the Mechanics Library in San Francisco. I haven't been there in a while, but it's not as bleak as you suggest. It isn't so different from many public libraries, except less busy and quieter.
I think many private libraries like Mechanics are nonprofits and aren't primarily funded by membership dues, so have little incentive to engage in dark patterns like this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanics%27_Institute,_San_...
robertlagrant
It wouldn't be hard to imagine paying a not for profit institution directly instead of via taxes. Then its funding would be unaffected by political vagaries, as it would be funded by people's choice.
musicale
Legal, reader-friendly digital public libraries are likely to remain very difficult (if not impossible) to create without copyright reform, such as first-sale doctrine for ebooks.
numbsafari
So, like, Kindle?
teaearlgraycold
I’m extremely confused. SF has many libraries and I go to them.
rahimnathwani
Yes, but almost none are commercial libraries.
idamantium
A new library branch, the first new one in the Brooklyn system in over 30 years, opened on the ground floor of my building. It's been the biggest quality of life boost I ever remember experiencing that didn't involve a move. The librarians know me by name because I put so many board games on hold.
1vuio0pswjnm7
Apparently Zuckerbucks has spent more, infation-adjusted, on GPUs for "AI" than Carnegie spent on libraries and, inflation-adjusted, Carnegie was wealthier than Schmuckerberg.
As for Meta's effect on "well-being", that is a question left for the reader.
One of the sad realities about physical libraries is that they are dying, at least in American university systems that have been parasitized by management consulting firms.
For instance, Georgia Tech recently moved their physical collection to off-campus stacks shared with Emory University, and both the University of South Carolina and Texas A&M University systems are downsizing collections and moving towards an access model reliant on the ILL system. The A&M system has even gone further and largely eliminated tenure for librarians. Other university systems, like the one in my snall state, have started to push checking out ebooks over physical books in various ways, possibly in preparation for more drastic changes like this, or at least so that they can begin downsizing their collections
This doesn't just affect students at universities, since many public institutions have historically offered community borrowing, and often have extremely rare books that simply aren't available otherwise
It's a complicated issue since this phenomenon is driven partly by user demand -- students are reading much less than they used to, and far less in the way of physical books, and university systems are responding to changes in demand. It's still sad to see