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After ruining a treasured water resource, Iran is drying up

egeozcan

As someone of Turkish origin with Kurdish, Bulgarian, and Greek roots (somehow my genes don't fight each other!), I'm deeply saddened by the current state of the region. Growing up in western Turkey, I didn't give much thought to the eastern part of the country, let alone Iran. Funnily, my first real interactions with Iranian culture didn't happen until I moved to Germany. Aside from their cuisine being the only one besides Turkish where I actually enjoy the rice (pilav/pilaf), I've found Iranians to be such warm, kind people who have suffered far too much due to politics. Maybe that's why we connected so deeply... We share similar struggles, though I recognize that Turkey's situation involves much less external interference than Iran's... ours is mostly our own doing.

I hope the rulers solve this problem as quickly as possible without causing pain to the civilians.

jncfhnb

I’m surprised that Iran can contemplate affording this. There must be such immense losses of all the land, homes, and capital assets in Tehran. And then operational costs of moving people around, building new homes, etc.

$100B is such a high number that it becomes funny money but… idk, doesn’t it still feel like a lowball in terms of losses?

dkga

I grew up in the Brazilian state of Minas Gerais, a region full of natural resources and, thankfully, aquifers and natural water reservoirs. However, centuries of extraction mismanagement and, more recently, over exploration of mineral resources puts these water resources into jeopardy. (Other problems include mining in open pits and with sludge dams that led to two of the worse environmental disasters in the world in 2015 and 2019, in Mariana and Brumadinho.)

The most interesting part is that Minas Gerais has unusual top-of-the-hill aquifers, instead of in valleys. The rare mineral formation in its mountain tops collects water and only slowly dispenses it to the subsoil, keeping its quality.[0] Needless to say, unfortunately I hold very little hope for it, considering it also sits on some of the most desirable iron ore deposits in the world.

[0] https://www.projetopreserva.com.br/post/os-raros-aquiferos-d... (in Portuguese)

neves

You forgot to mention what may be the most serious water problem in Brazil. Agribusiness invests heavily in the Cerrado, the Brazilian savanna. In the Cerrado originate the vast majority of Brazilian rivers, which supply water to almost all of Brazil. Its trees, with deep roots, retain the scarce water of the region. This entire region has been deforested for the production of soybeans and cattle ranching. Brazil is a great exporter of water, which it currently does in the form of meat, soybeans, coffee, and paper.

Today we are experiencing unprecedented droughts in the region. In the future, we will pay a much higher price.

Waterluvian

Wow. That’s a hydrological feature I’ve never come across in my studies. Thanks for sharing.

Short tangent: I want to stop and admire that you shared an article in Portuguese and in seconds I could read it with Safari’s translation feature. It even translated labels on the images, and got the hydrologic cycle figure right! (However, I think “Rio de 28 Old Women” is probably an error.) This makes me feel connected with you in a way that wouldn’t have been possible a generation ago.

Wowfunhappy

I feel like machine translation is the unsung hero of the recent AI wave. Gone are the days of just barely being able to discern the meaning of Google Translate. Now I can just read it.

I don't know how useful LLMs will ultimately turn out to be for most things, but a freaking universal translator that allows me to understand any language? Incredible!

est31

Machine translation has certainly become better, and that's amazing and wonderful to see. Definitely an amazing thing that has come out of the AI boom.

However, it has led to many websites to automatically enable it (like reddit), and one has to find a way to opt out for each website, if one speaks the language already. Especially colloquial language that uses lots of idioms gets translated quite weirdly still.

It's a bit sad that websites can't rely on the languages the browser advertises as every browser basically advertises english, so they often auto translate from english anyways if they detect a non-english IP address.

Waterluvian

Yeah! I don't know what methods Safari on iOS uses, but in general translation has become pretty magical. It feels like we've kind of slepwalked through the invention of the Universal Translator. I just haven't heard as much gushing about it as I feel it deserves. I can just effortlessly read a sciency news article originally written in Portuguese!

wat10000

A nice thing with LLMs is that you can ask them for a more comprehensive and detailed translation, and explain the nuances and ambiguities rather than trying to match the style of the original. This is great for things like group chats in a foreign language, where it’s full of colloquial expressions, shorthand, and typos.

dkga

Thanks for the kind words! And nice to know about the Safari translation, glad to know it brought us close together!

By the way, the name of the river translates to “River of the Old Ladies”. I don’t know where the label got the 28 from!

Reubachi

At the risk of making a comment that goes against HN comment guidelines;

"Rio de 28 Old Women" sounds like a theme park ride.

Waterluvian

Ugh I’m not a fan of that ride. It really pinches my cheeks.

black6

So that's the kind of hill Jack and Jill went up.

stainablesteel

this same problem is one of the side effects of mining for the metals used in things like solar panels

it comes at the sacrifice of many non-western countries and this conversation is never on the table

it's such a shame things that could otherwise last for thousands of years will get destroyed by a few decades of mismanagement

pjc50

Always interesting when people select an environmentally friendly technology that will help the transition away from destroying the environment somewhere or indeed everywhere else as the "villain" in this discussion. As if oil or coal extraction were without their controversies.

jna_sh

Never on which table? “Exporting” environmental degradation is an incredibly widely discussed issue. Especially for South America, due to illegal rainforest clearing for soy farming to feed the NA/EU cattle industry, and lithium mining in Argentina, Bolivia and Chile.

blackguardx

They have plenty of mines for iron amd otber metals in western countries as well. Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butte,_Montana

jna_sh

Also Kiruna in Sweden, an iron mine they relocate the entire town around to expand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiruna_mine

Also the reason for the existence of the Norwegian port town of Narvik, connected to Kiruna by the world’s most northerly train line.

closewith

Not to mention that Brazil is a Western country.

Someone

> However, unpublished national observations revealed groundwater depletion in some plains from as early as the 1950s. This coincided with the gradual replacement of Persian qanats, which were sustainable groundwater extraction systems and UNESCO World Cultural Heritage sites9, with (semi)deep wells.

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/irn/ira... says Iran’s population today is over five times that of 1950.

It also is a safe bet that water consumption per capita went up, too.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if qanats couldn’t support current water usage.

Maybe that “coincided” doesn’t imply “they stopped using qanats, so the water table dropped” but “qanats weren’t sufficient anymore, so they started drilling deep wells, and the water table dropped”?

vintermann

And the reason qanats weren't sufficient anymore, was that they pursued a policy of food independence, due to sanctions/a desire for political autonomy.

I'm not so sure they could have done much different.

bonzini

Sanctions in the 1950s?

scythe

Sanctions, including an attempted blockade [1] of oil exports, imposed by the British Empire, still in existence at the time, in response to a dispute over the ownership of Iranian oil fields, which were a primary factor in the fall of Mossadegh. See e.g.:

https://harpers.org/archive/2013/07/the-tragedy-of-1953/

It should be noted that while the Shah obviously benefited from the coup, he remained suspicious of the Western powers who had supported it; he was not foolish enough to believe they were honest allies. Consequently, he was inclined to support attempts at autarky.

1: https://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/news/new-york-times/march-...

vintermann

Desire for political autonomy in the 1950s.

inglor_cz

We tend to forget that the 1950s and 1960s were a period of large-scale engineering: intensification of agriculture, massive construction of dams, roads, mines etc., where nature and environmental footprint was at best an afterthought. In the US, in the Soviet Union, and also in (the Shah's) Iran.

Current environmental movement is downstream from that period - a reaction to abuses that happened. At least where the political situation tolerated its emergence.

Note that the Aral Sea, which lies geographically nearby, dried up for nearly the same reasons - too much water consumed - even though the Soviet Union was not in a position where they "couldn't have done much different"; they had plenty of productive soil elsewhere, being literally the largest country in the world and having been blessed with a lot of chernozem.

The underlying factor was the technocratic Zeitgeist which commanded people to "move fast and break (old fashioned) things". Such as qanats in Iran or old field systems in Central Europe.

motoboi

The article interviewed some actual hydrologists from Iran. I’m pretty sure they are aware of population growth in their homeland.

heisenbit

"How did you go bankrupt? Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Hemingway

Humans are notoriously bad heading off long term consequences.

layer8

While the romantic in me is hoping that qanats would indeed still do the job, we don’t know how hand-picked these hydrologist opinions are.

krige

The article does say that a number of qanats was overdrawn.

But it also says several other things, pointing to poor water management policies, extreme damification drying up wetlands downstream, lack of necessary maintenance on some qanats, and more.

wat10000

Clicking through the link to the original paper, the point seems to be that qanats are inherently sustainable because they only produce as much as goes in. You may gradually exceed their capacity, but there won’t be a sudden “oops, no more water” crisis as can happen when you pump an aquifer dry.

baxtr

Maybe it’s selection bias but:

The saddest thing about Iran I’ve noticed is the stark contrast between the current state of the country and the intelligence of the people I’ve met from this country.

dredmorbius

This is often the case.

Consider too the selection bias in those you've met from Iran, presumably outside that country. Both on ideological and socioeconomic / aptitude bases.

I'd first encountered a similar observation in the 1970s or 1980s, then directed largely at those from Soviet Bloc countries encountered in the West. Typically these were academics, engineers, or similarly highly-skilled professionals, who presumably found greener pastures outside their homeland. Presuming that these were necessarily representative of the larger population ignores sampling dynamics.

TheCraiggers

Greed is emotion-based. Intelligence isn't necessarily the best counter against emotion.

immibis

Iran used to be a very prosperous country only a century ago, and then it democratically elected a totalitarian theocratic party.

Don't think that it can't happen here too.

dartharva

This can apply to almost every country on earth.

renegade-otter

I am not saying there is no crisis coming, but I recall reading that Tehran will be out of water in two weeks, two months ago. What's up with that?

krige

These predictions assume that nobody will do anything, which is almost never true. The crisis is no less real just because a lot of resources was put into delaying its effects.

darkoob12

Back then they said Tehran will go out of water if there is no rain in coming weeks and it is raining in Tehran, now. Also they rationed water for a few weeks. Many regions of Tehran only had water during the night.

mikeyinternews

Perhaps this bit from the article is more concrete: "Tehran's five reservoirs plunged to 12 percent of capacity last month"

nephihaha

I read a similar prediction about Cape Town not long ago. It hasn't happened there despite the serious threat.

samyar

Right now, water is not available all day.

FergusArgyll

Elasticity of supply

deadbabe

Ever heard of clickbait?

It is unlikely Tehran will just evacuate all at once. They will do something drastic when the problem can no longer be ignored. And random events like rain will delay the inevitable for a while longer.

Perhaps this is how climate change will end up as well.

mikeyinternews

Ever hear of reading the article you comment on? There was no mention of "moving all at once". As stated, moving the capital from Tehran "would take decades"...

vintermann

It IS climate change, to a large part. And yes, I think you're right it's how climate change will show up for us as well.

There will always be lot of other factors - the first time we're going to really collectively notice sea level rise is on the high tide during a storm surge. The rest of the time, the change will be within the range of variation that we're used to dealing with.

timcobb

Unaccountable fools in power destroy entire civilizations...

Amusing/telling/sad how these self proclaimed anti-imperialist Islamists cargo culted western technohubris just the same

meteyor

Though the problems of the world are increasingly complex, the solutions remain embarrassingly simple.

- Bill Mollison

keiferski

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

- H. L. Mencken

timcobb

What simple solution are you referring to? Depopulating Tehran?

6LLvveMx2koXfwn

It appears the solution to most hard or intractable problems is to post pithy aphorisms on the internet.

breppp

As far I remember a large reason for the water crisis is subsidizing water for agriculture which does not fit the local climate

This is based on some ideological pillar of being autarkic, as the Islamic Republic was generally built upon the fear of outside influence

sounds like if 90% of their water goes to agriculture, mostly export, and their country is cash strapped due to their habit of kidnappings, then maybe there's a simple solution here

vintermann

> This is based on some ideological pillar of being autarkic, as the Islamic Republic was generally built upon the fear of outside influence

You say that if it was some cultural oddity, and not a completely understandable reaction and exactly the same any state with "western culture" would have done in the same situation.

jrjeksjd8d

Their country is cash strapped and needs to be independent because of US sanctions. The CIA overthrew the democratically elected government in the 50s which led to the Islamic Republic.

MangoToupe

> This is based on some ideological pillar of being autarkic, as the Islamic Republic was generally built upon the fear of outside influence

This sure is an interesting way to frame fifty years of organized sanctions

null

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meteyor

I like the idea of working with nature to solve problems. As a start, instead of, as you suggest, depopulating Tehran, they could populate it with trees. Chad is a perfect example of how to turn a deserted landscape into a "Great green wall of Africa" as they call it. And they did in only two years.

null

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abenga

Use less water? Probably by recycling the water that is actually used. If las Vegas can survive in the desert, any city can. The problem is getting the money to apply the fixes required.

orthoxerox

Las Vegas was built in the oasis.

LunaSea

Not sure if a quote by a pseudo-scientist new-age gardener is really adapted.

emsign

TYS = told ya so

The Iranian mullahs locked up everyone who warned them about the upcoming water crisis.

krbaccord94f

Rain water collection structures that distill H2O in terms of pH.

Gonabad qanat network, reputedly the world’s largest, extends for more than 20 miles beneath the Barakuh Mountains of northeast Iran. The tunnels are more than 3 feet high, reach a depth of a thousand feet, and are supplied by more than 400 vertical wells for maintenance.

ChrisMarshallNY

Sounds like it would be cheaper to build desalination plants on the coast, and pipe the water in. Iran certainly has the technology and brainpower to do that.

nerdsniper

They share the same gas field with Qatar, who does all their desalination with all the excess gas production they can’t sell.

Qatar has no surface freshwater or groundwater. So all of their water is desalinated. It’s often still quite salty to the taste though - the last few ppms would be an exorbitant cost to remove.

However, Qatar has 3 million people. Iran has 92 million people - 9 million in Tehran alone. So their half of that gas field in the Gulf contributes far less energy per capita.

And even if the energy is free (unlimited natural gas, fusion, magic, whatever) desalination is still fairly expensive. I think only about 50% of the cost is energy, the other half is CapEx, operations, and replacing the membranes as they get used up.

dsalzman

In world first, Israel begins pumping desalinated water into depleted Sea of Galilee

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-world-first-israel-begins-p...

ChrisMarshallNY

I have read about experimental desalination techniques that do a better job, and use less energy, but I haven't heard much about that, lately.

I'd think that this kind of research would be a priority. It won't be long, before we start having water wars (like olden times, but with nastier weapons).

pbmonster

The low hanging fruit have been long picked. Reverse osmosis is within 50% of the thermodynamic limit.

If you have gigawatts of low grade waste heat (Iran does, in theory), you can run multistage flash distillers of the waste heat, and those have more than an order of magnitude separation to the thermodynamic limit (they also have lower CAPEX, lower maintenance and lower water pre-treatment requirements than reverse osmosis).

nikanj

Qatar and exorbitant cost are an iconic duo, surprised they haven't gone through the trouble considering the general trend of glamor and excess

jack_riminton

I suggest you read the article it talks about the viability of that very point

ChrisMarshallNY

> I suggest you read the article

I wasn't talking about what they were discussing (desalination for farming). I was talking about moving an entire city, as opposed to getting enough water to deal with just that city.

I suggest you read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments

nayroclade

Actually it says the desalinated water is too expensive even for farming, it’s only used for heavy industries, so it’s certainly not a solution for the domestic supply of 9 million people.

And don’t confuse moving the capital city with actually relocating Tehran. Tehran’s not going anywhere. What they’re proposing is building a new capital city, but it’ll be the rich and the political and religious elite who move there. The millions of poor and powerless living in Tehran will get left behind. Some will be able to migrate south, but many won’t.

Europas

No it has not and due to sanctions of USA, they struggle getting the equipement they need.

mhb

And what are the sanctions due to?

worldsavior

Not surprising. A country that invests all of his money on nuclear weapons and threatens the West with bombings- will actually care if it's capital is drying up?

MangoToupe

I used to think people didn't actually believe the propaganda they were fed, but now I've come to realize it's the only thing many know about the world.

nradov

It's not completely wrong, though. Iran has spent significant resources on a nuclear weapons program, as well as sponsoring foreign terrorist organizations and other military activities. We can argue about whether those things are right or wrong but they really happened and consumed resources that could have been used to improve water infrastructure. Guns or butter.

MangoToupe

Believe it or not, other things do happen in the country aside from what is reported on in western media. Claiming this is all they do is heinously ignorant.