Sam Altman's Dirty DRAM Deal
110 comments
·December 6, 2025embedding-shape
swatcoder
> This was not the "free and global market" I thought we were supposed to have at this point.
Perhaps you haven't noticed but the pendulum has been swinging the other way for a while already and has a lot of momentum behind it. It's mentioned off-hand because the ongoing return to a multi-polar global order is covered elsewhere already, across dozens of articles every day.
bee_rider
Err… is there any question that the US is trying to slow down China’s high-tech computer development? I thought that was our open goal.
Countries decided the extent to which they’d like to engage in free trade together. It is a knob that we’d hope our leaders would turn strategically. (Regardless of whether or not we think our leaders actually are doing a good job of it…).
embedding-shape
> I thought that was our open goal.
Is the goal also to hurt South Korean businesses and all businesses in the world, just to "pwn China" basically?
bee_rider
We’re probably also spurring China to develop more independently. I don’t think it is a good plan, just an unconfusing one.
lovich
"America First" as an ideology means that question is never considered
hodgehog11
We left behind any pretense of a free global market once we entered a post-tariff world. You can't have large universal tariffs or even the threat of them and expect the market to act freely, the two are fundamentally incompatible.
Muromec
Oh, the market will find a way around this too. The more US uses this particular button the less effective it becomes.
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Muromec
What free market?
arjie
I don't think you can have a "free and global market" when countries participate in large-scale state industrial policy. Given those constraints, you have to either enforce a zero-subsidy environment (the US has no power to do this) or you have to accept that trade control is one arm of your foreign policy goals and surrendering it entirely is unlikely to help your aims.
For the most part, free and open trade is beneficial to the Western world order. But I think it's quite straightforward to imagine conditions under which it is not, many of which are currently in effect.
US control of EUV technology is probably the most obvious present one, but limitations on nuclear proliferation are an obvious case where there is no free market. Even selling civilian nuclear technology is controlled.
You may think of it analogously to Free Speech. The dream is complete and total expression. The reality is that if you allow convincing enough liars, your society starts to falter. Consequently, certain kinds of expression are not permitted - notably defamation. Think of it as more a North Star navigation ideal constrained by the trade winds (I suppose the Westerlies would be more relevant, but I couldn't resist the pun).
If you want a couple of reads, I enjoyed A Splendid Exchange about the history of trade, which I followed by the resurgent-though-once-dismissed Zeihan's Disunited Nations (which is more a hypothesis book than a history book).
mlsu
Moves like this should be illegal.
It's becoming increasingly clear that OpenAI is going to get lapped by Google on technical merits. So this is the "code red" solution? Supply shenanigans?
They are getting beat in the developer market by Anthropic. And getting beat on fundamental tech by Google. This is a company whose ostensible mission is to "benefit all of humanity" ...
roenxi
As in producers not over-producing RAM should be illegal? A presumably short-term price spike in RAM of all things is a non-issue. It is a luxury good that only a very small number of people care about and there is no reason to think this blip is going to last. Apple did stuff like this all the time at their high point in the late 2000s and early 2010s, and it would happen often in other markets. The world is not static and sometimes the situation changes and lots of supply is soaked up.
michaelmrose
Who in developed countries doesn't buy computers and by extension ram
roenxi
Who in the developed world doesn't have a few luxuries? Pretty much all of history people have had to make do with RAM being a lot less accessible than it is now. It isn't essential and people can still buy RAM in the rare situations where they actually need it.
There is nothing here worth invoking the legal system over. OpenAI can buy huge amounts of RAM if they want. Good luck to them, hope it works out, looks like an expensive and risky manoeuvre. And we're probably going to have a RAM glut in a few years looking at these prices.
imbusy111
Seems like it is, but the question is whether the current Justice Department will do anything about it.
willis936
I read "US Justice Department" the same way I read "Britain's Ministry of Truth".
paulryanrogers
When I hear about this US justice department, I hear the mafia enforcement.
semiquaver
> Seems like it is
Do you have a citation for what law is being violated? Or just vibes?
intunderflow
https://fortune.com/2025/11/23/ai-rivals-like-openai-nvidia-...
Obviously kind of a moot point because whether it violates antitrust law or not, what is guaranteed is the US Government is not going to do anything
ajross
Market manipulation is a crime under the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. You can't buy things to influence the price or the market, only to use or resell.
UncleOxidant
The current Justice Department? You're kidding, right?
loeg
> Moves like this should be illegal.
Should be, as in, new legislation should criminalize it? What's the generalized principle? Or should be, as in existing law should cover it? And if so, what law / how?
adgjlsfhk1
It wouldn't shock me if this is actually just market manipulation. OpenAI in the past year seems to be operating more and more like a pump and dump machine. Their recent AMD deal seems to have been AMD giving them a bunch of stock for free in exchange for them announcing that they would use AMD GPUs for training, and OpenAI doesn't have any fab equipment so the only thing they can do with 40% of the global dram supply is sell it to someone else.
wmf
the only thing they can do with 40% of the global dram supply is sell it to someone else.
The way it works is that OpenAI will have the DRAM delivered to Nvidia/AMD/Broadcom to be assembled into the racks that OpenAI buys.
c-hendricks
An American company, combined with American tariffs, and fear of American retaliation.
Getting pretty tired of that place tbh.
pixelpoet
I like how one of the reference links betrays how the article itself was researched, possibly written; HN hides the end of the url, which is "utm_source=chatgpt.com":
> https://www.economist.com/business/2025/11/19/cracks-are-app...
You have to appreciate the irony :)
JSR_FDED
If OpenAI were actually using the RAM that’s one thing - but stockpiling raw wafers in warehouses is egregious.
arjie
Guys, these are silicon wafers not bars of steel. You can't just stockpile 40% of annual capacity in a warehouse long-term. I would be incredibly surprised to find that any such large scale storage facility exists. Any storage of undiced wafers is temporary while the manufacturing pipeline proceeds. You've seen the pictures of clean rooms and stuff. There's no way you spend all that effort to make the wafer and then just stick it in a warehouse. Who even is going to make such a large cleanroom facility? And for what exactly? It doesn't even pass the basic sniff test.
Much more likely this is just a detail of the contract so that OpenAI can guarantee allocation. I would be surprised if the actual wafers entered OpenAI hands before being fully packaged.
ares623
Maybe they’ll build nice little forts with the wafers
riskable
If they do, it'll be a house made of glass.
toss1
Yup. Not exactly a move "for the good of the world".
Also consider:
Warehouses of small, high-value items that are fungible and untraceable.
That will create multiple huge targets for a big heist. And they'd best have good eyes on their security people too.
Sounds like something big enough for organized crime to target.
arjie
There's nothing dirty about this deal. When making a large deal with one vendor he didn't disclose to them that he was making a deal with another vendor. That's pretty normal when you're trying to buy a lot of stuff. Otherwise, they can collude to shake you down.
I'm not thrilled about this genre of "guy I don't like does totally normal thing so it's bad". It's too engagement baity.
EDIT: Though even that may be wrong. TechCrunch reports that it was a joint meeting between the South Korean President, the heads of the two companies, and Sam Altman. I won't claim that TC is the bible but there's lots of stuff being reported that makes no sense, and this is a good deal for both these companies so it's more believable than news from someone that OpenAI is going to buy a bunch of wafers and stick it in a warehouse.
https://techcrunch.com/2025/10/01/openai-ropes-in-samsung-sk...
am17an
It's bad for consumers period. A deal that hampers 40% of global supply shouldn't be a thing, it's predatory. I know DRAM is not a necessity, but considering that PCs are going to be affected means this affects real things like schools and hospitals. There's being smart while making a deal and there's knee-capping the market with your leveraged to the tits business
null
hamandcheese
> OpenAI isn’t even bothering to buy finished memory modules! No, their deals are unprecedentedly only for raw wafers — uncut, unfinished, and not even allocated to a specific DRAM standard yet. It’s not even clear if they have decided yet on how or when they will finish them into RAM sticks or HBM! Right now it seems like these wafers will just be stockpiled in warehouses
That is not "totally normal".
arjie
It's not really that different from Apple reserving wafer starts on TSMC's next node and so on. It's just that this kind of capacity requirement has rarely shown up in DRAM before. Vendors prefer this kind of capacity reservation over a more variable finished product requirement. It allows them to know that they can build at the bottleneck rather than having to start up more capacity and then having that lie idle while everything downstream in DRAM packaging and DIMM production can't actually consume anything.
hodgehog11
I don't buy it. It's easier to make this argument for companies that are building their own hardware, since they know it can be immediately used. OpenAI's move is tantamount to hoarding for the sake of strangling competition. There was plenty of supply to allow for their plans without this move (especially since they will probably go bankrupt at this rate).
bee_rider
It seems not normal (in the sense that it is obviously quite weird to but like half of the world’s RAM supply). But I wonder if they are also just not ready to announce what they are doing with it?
I mean with that many wafers, I guess it is possible that they’d be doing something pretty custom with the things…
roadbuster
> To be clear - the shock wasn’t that OpenAI made a big deal, no, it was that they made two massive deals this big, at the same time, with Samsung and SK Hynix simultaneously
That's not "dirty." That's hiding your intentions from suppliers so they don't crank prices before you walk through their front door.
If you want to buy a cake, never let the baker know it's for a wedding.
didibus
What they mean is that they bought 40% of all RAM production, they managed to do that by simultaneously making two big deals at the same time. It's buying up 40% of all RAM production with the intention to have most of it idle in warehouses that is "dirty". And in order to be able to do that, they needed to be secretive and time two big deals at the same time.
roadbuster
> It's buying up 40% of all RAM production with the intention to have most of it idle in warehouses
They have no incentive to purchase a rapidly-depreciating asset and then immediately shelve it, none
They might have to warehouse inventory until they can spin-up module-manufacturing capacity, but that's just getting their ducks in a row
hamandcheese
That's not the dirty part. This is the dirty part:
> OpenAI isn’t even bothering to buy finished memory modules! No, their deals are unprecedentedly only for raw wafers — uncut, unfinished, and not even allocated to a specific DRAM standard yet. It’s not even clear if they have decided yet on how or when they will finish them into RAM sticks or HBM! Right now it seems like these wafers will just be stockpiled in warehouses
roadbuster
> OpenAI isn’t even bothering to buy finished memory modules
And? Why should they be obligated to pay for all the middleman steps from fab down to module? That includes: wafer-level test, module-level test (DC, AC, parametric), packaging, post-packaging test, and module fabrication. There's nothing illegal or sketchy about saying, "give me the wafers, I'll take care of everything else myself."
> not even allocated to a specific DRAM standard yet
DRAM manufacturers design and fabricate chips to sell into a standardized, commodity market. There's no secret evolutionary step which occurs after the wafers are etched which turns chips into something which adheres to DDR4,5,6,7,8,9
> It’s not even clear if they have decided yet on how or when they will finish them into RAM sticks or HBM
Who cares?
hamandcheese
The implication here is that the primary goal is to corner the market, not to use the supply. If you aren't going to use them anyways then of course it is silly to pay for them to be finished.
Do you think that's fine, or do you think that implication is wrong and OpenAI does actually plan to deploy 40% of the world's DRAM supply?
throw7
"...their deals are unprecedentedly only for raw wafers — uncut, unfinished, and not even allocated to a specific DRAM standard..."
wtf. life sucks.
Mistletoe
That $7 trillion number makes more sense now.
jascha_eng
I'm curious how OpenAI has the funds to pay for 40% of the worlds ram production? Sure they are big and have a few billions but I kind of assumed that 40% for a year or whatever they are buying is easily double digit billions? That has to hurt even them, especially because they cant buy anything else?
Also what are these contracts? Surely Samsung could decide to cancel the contract by paying a large fee but is that fee truly so large that getting their ram back when prices are now 4x of what they used to be is not worth it?
jascha_eng
I found this which claims ram market in 2024 was almost 100 billion: https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/random-a...
I assume this includes more than just the raw price of modules but Openai only has 60 billion in funding altogether and was aiming for 20 billion ARR this year. This sounds like they are spending maybe half their money on RAM they never use? That just doesn't add up.
pshirshov
I have a 32 GiB DDR5 set, happy to exchange for $500K in cash or a nice little house in Spain.
embedding-shape
I have a nice little house in Spain, I'm willing to trade it for 128GB of RDIMM DDR5.
pshirshov
No issue pal, I have that too. I can survive on my 32 GiB set for a while.
65a
4800MHz single rank ok?
mxfh
Secondary RAM Manufacturing Had Stalled. Budget brands normally buy older DRAM fabrication equipment from mega-producers like Samsung when Samsung upgrades their DRAM lines to the latest and greatest equipment. This allows the DRAM market to expand more than it would otherwise because it makes any upgrading of the fanciest production lines to still be additive change to the market. However, Korean memory firms have been terrified that reselling old equipment to China-adjacent OEMs might trigger U.S. retaliation…and so those machines have been sitting idle in warehouses since early spring.
My takeaway, this sounds like an comparably easy fix for the consumer market, if prices are somewhat guarenteed to stay mid term significantly above this years spring floor for someone to sweep up the margins and negotiate a somewhat reliable way to get the last gen production lines up and running again. Will take at least half a year to pick up, but this is not a longterm RAM doomsday scenario in any sense.
I'm more worried about the low to mid-end embedded systems, that a have a dollar budget for memory components, that could get unbearably slow for the current/next gen if manufactures just use the bare minimum of RAM the bloated TV or tablet OS can run on, if the 1GB raspberry move is any indication of that. And consumers stuck with no way to upgrade them to a reasonably usable state.
adgjlsfhk1
One of the big problems here is that all of the hardware companies have been burned by hype before (e.g. crypto). No one actually believes that these AI companies will still be around in 5 years so spending billions to build factories for them doesn't make sense.
lukeschlather
I don't know what companies will be around 5 years from now, but I would bet there will be more demand for RAM and the price per GB will be at least what it was before this price shock.
dehrmann
Guess OpenAI finally found a business model that works: memory futures.
> Budget brands normally buy older DRAM fabrication equipment from mega-producers like Samsung when Samsung upgrades their DRAM lines to the latest and greatest equipment. This allows the DRAM market to expand more than it would otherwise because it makes any upgrading of the fanciest production lines to still be additive change to the market. However, Korean memory firms have been terrified that reselling old equipment to China-adjacent OEMs might trigger U.S. retaliation…and so those machines have been sitting idle in warehouses since early spring.
This seems to almost be mentioned off-hand, but isn't this a really bad and un-free market, and a much bigger issue? Korean companies are afraid of doing business with Chinese companies because of the US, because of retaliation? This was not the "free and global market" I thought we were supposed to have at this point.
If production lines of DRAM are hindered by the politics of a unrelated 3rd party, then this seems to be a stronger cause of the current shortage than "a very large customer buying a lot in a short period of time".