US probes Waymo robotaxis over school bus safety
86 comments
·October 23, 2025krisoft
themafia
> we can develop a fix and roll it out on all of them.
You have to know what you're fixing first. You're going to write a lot of code in blood this way.
It's not that people are particularly bad at driving it's that the road is exceptionally dynamic with many different users and use cases all trying to operate in a synchronized fashion with a dash of strong regulation sprinkled in.
MindSpunk
> You have to know what you're fixing first. You're going to write a lot of code in blood this way.
This is exactly how the aviation industry works, and it's one of the safest ways to travel in the world. Autonomous driving enables 'identify problem -> widely deployed and followed solutions' in a way human drivers just can't. Things won't be perfect at first but there's an upper limit on safety with human drivers that autonomous driving is capable of reaching past.
It's tragic, but people die on roads every day, all that changes is accountability gets muddier and there's a chance things might improve every time something goes wrong.
jefftk
> You're going to write a lot of code in blood this way.
Waymo has been doing a lot of driving, without any blood. They seems to be using a combination of (a) learning a lot from close calls like this one where no one was hurt even through it still behaved incorrectly and (b) being cautious so that even when it does something it shouldn't the risk is very low because it's moving slowly.
themafia
Waymo operates in a very limited scope and area. I would not attempt to extrapolate anything from their current performance.
warkdarrior
Waymo operates in San Francisco, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Austin, and Atlanta so I am sure they encountered school buses by now and learned from those encounters.
programjames
The human traffic code is also written in blood. But humans are worse at applying the patch universally.
hamdingers
We don't even try. In the US you demonstrate that you know the rules at one point in time and that's it, as long as you never get a DUI you're good.
For instance, the 2003 California Driver's Handbook[1] first introduced the concept of "bike lanes" to driver education, but contains the advice "You may park in the bike lane unless signs say “NO PARKING.”" which is now illegal. Anyone who took their test in the early 2000s is likely unaware that changed.
It also lacks any instruction whatsoever on common modern roadway features like roundabouts or shark teeth yield lines, but we still consider drivers who only ever studied this book over 20 years ago to be qualified on modern roads.
1. https://dn720706.ca.archive.org/0/items/B-001-001-944/B-001-...
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trollbridge
… assuming the GiantCorp running the robotaxis cares about complying with the law, and doesn’t just pay a fine that means nothing to them.
bluGill
The first fines should be meaningless to the company. If the issue isn't fixed the fines should get higher and higher. If the company fixes one issue but there is a second discovered quickly we should assume they don't care about safety and the second issue should have a higher fine than the first even though it is unrelated.
Companies (and people) have an obligation to do the right thing.
AlotOfReading
What do you mean by "second issue"? A second instance of the same underlying problem, or a different underlying problem? The way you phrase it as unrelated suggests the latter to me.
It's pretty wild to jump straight to "they don't care about safety" here. Building a perfect system without real world testing is impossible, for exactly the same reason it's impossible to write bug-free code on the first try. That's not a suggestion to be lax, just that we need to be realistic about what's achievable if we agree that some form of this technology could be beneficial.
lawlessone
>The first fines should be meaningless to the company.
Why?
xbar
Waymo seems more interested in delivering a true solution than I have seen elsewhere.
whimsicalism
the discourse around “corporations” has gotten absolutely ridiculous at this point, especially on this website.
d4mi3n
It’s not an unreasonable take given historic behavior. Rather than decrying the cynicism, what steps can we take to ensure companies like Tesla/Waymo/etc are held accountable and incentivized to prioritize safety?
Do we need hasher fines? Give auto regulators as much teeth as the FAA used to have during accident investigations?
Genuinely curious to see how addressing reasonable concerns in these areas can be done.
dmix
South Park had a good satire on this sort of generic anti-corporation comment. paraphrasing
"Corporations are bad"
"Why?"
"Because, you know, they act all corporate-y."
https://www.tiktok.com/@plutotvuk/video/7311643257383963937 (sorry googles first result was titktok)
varenc
It's ironic given this forum began as a place for aspiring startup (Delaware C-Corp) founders.
paganel
I agree, much of the people here are still way too lenient when it comes to big corps.
renewiltord
We feared the advent of LLMs since they could be used as convincing spam tools. Little did we know that humans would often do the same.
daseiner1
> a fine that means nothing to them
Yes, this is often the case. In this instance, though, endangering children is just about the worst PR possible. That's strong leverage.
tanseydavid
This^^^ -- the impact of positive vs negative PR is unusually huge with this type of tech.
1970-01-01
It's a strength if you catch the bug and fix it before it injures anyone. If anything, this proves edge-cases can take years to manifest.
dangus
As a counterpoint, a large fine or jail time as a deterrent actually has meaning.to an individual.
For a company, it's a financial calculation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimshaw_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
(Add the period to the end of the link, HN won't do it)
Animats
There's a video of the actual incident.[1] (Yahoo posted some file photo). The Waymo was entering from a side street, in front of the school bus. It clearly recognized that it was in an iffy situation and slowed to creeping speed, rather than blocking the intersection. No children are visible.
If the school bus has a dashcam, much better info may be available. This video starts too late.
paxys
I'm not complaining, but like..maybe also do this for the vast majority of human drivers who also flout these rules.
bigstrat2003
I mean, we do. The problem is that you need to be physically present to catch and deal with those people, and you can only really deal with one party (others will do their thing while a police officer is dealing with the first driver they stop). Not to mention that drivers change their behavior if they see the police around, so it's harder to catch them in the act. So for a variety of reasons it's harder to solve the human driver problem.
lotsofpulp
With how cheap high definition cameras are, I don’t see why society needs a person to be physically present.
terminalshort
I prefer the risk of death over constant surveillance
kjkjadksj
“Wasn’t me in the car”
righthand
Yeah fair treatment for billion dollar corporations and robots and all. Who could forget. Waymo is such a lovely person, why would anyone ask them to do better?
GiorgioG
I'm going to call bullshit on this. Most human drivers do not flout these rules.
trollbridge
No kidding. Try doing this once or twice and the driver will record your information and you’ll get a nice visit from the police.
kotaKat
Out here in rural nowhere it doesn’t — it just gets the sheriff on the local news begging people to stop instead of solving the actual problem at hand by placing patrols on the routes.
[1] https://www.wwnytv.com/2025/02/12/absolutely-terrifying-grow...
criddell
I think maybe they meant that the majority of vehicles that flout the rules are human-driven.
basisword
Human drivers can be seen and stopped by police and given an appropriate punishment. Self-driving cars have nobody to take accountability like that so you need to go back to the source.
some_random
Yeah but in many cases they're not, traffic enforcement went way down during Covid and it's still down.
daseiner1
Most large cities I've lived in, general traffic enforcement essentially only exists on that month's/quarter's designated ticket-writing day. i.e., when highway patrol and city police just write speeding tickets all day to juice revenue
jmpman
I’m also curious about school zones. The one near my house has a sign, “School” “Speed Limit 35” “7:00AM to 4:00PM School Days”
Now, how does a robotaxi comply with that? Does it go to the district website and look up the current school year calendar? Or does it work like a human, and simply observe the patterns of the school traffic, and assume the general school calendar?
I suspect it continues in Mad Max mode.
izacus
Wait, how does that work? Every person in your city needs to know the exact calendar of that school?
phyzome
You can always just slow down for 30 seconds if you're not sure.
RaftPeople
In the area I live, the wording is frequently "when children present" so you don't need to know school schedule.
themafia
Present means "present in the school." It's not always observable while driving by if you need to obey the reduced limit or not. California does it and I find it absurd.
Many other states setup a flashing yellow light and program the light with the school schedule. Then the limit only applies "when light is flashing." Far more sensible.
username223
This is the one most familiar to me. Usually the signs have flashing orange lights to indicate when they're active, but sometimes not. You generally know roughly when the kids are in school (maybe look at the school?), and follow what other drivers are doing. Things like this are why I think fully autonomous driving basically requires AGI.
slavik81
Yes, that's how it works in Alberta. It's particularly confusing because not all schools have the same academic calendar (e.g., most schools have a summer break, but a few have summer classes).
Unlike the sibling comment, there are no lights or indications of when school is in session. You must memorize the academic calendar of every school you drive past in order to know the speed limit. In practice, this means being conservative and driving more slowly in unfamiliar areas.
jefftk
This is another example of something where, at least if you want to get all the way to completely correct operation, it's easier for an driverless car than a human. A person can't memorize the schedules of every school district they might pass, but an automated system potentially could. Of course something like Google Maps could solve this too, for both humans and Waymo.
hamdingers
You are not penalized for failing to go over 35 on non-school-days. School zones are sufficiently small that the time penalty for complying on a summer weekday isn't that much of an inconvenience.
daseiner1
the sign says the hours for the reduced speed limit or, more commonly in my experience, has a light that activates during school hours.
AlotOfReading
The light and often even the sign itself are typically considered informational aids rather than strict determinants of legality. The driver is expected to comply with all the nitpicky details of the law regardless of whether the bulb is burned out or the school schedule changes.
Needless to say, most people regularly violate some kind of traffic law, we just don't enforce it.
isodev
Aren’t they supposed to read signs? Otherwise they’d also ignore the overhead speed limits on the highway for traffic jams / air quality adjustments during the day.
buckle8017
They should just always observe the lower speed limit.
The difference is usually 5 or maybe 10 mph.
Which over the distance of a school zone is nothing.
bink
It can be dangerous though. In my area we have roads with speed limits of 45 that drop to 25 "when children are present". My EV always assumes children are present as it has no real way to determine if they are. Driving 25 in a 45 is dangerous for many reasons.
renewiltord
Are school days ever Sundays? If not, perhaps all drivers just treat every non-Sunday as school day. If so, they probably just slow every day.
netsharc
Off-topic... what poor writing:
> a Waymo did not remain stationary when approaching a school bus with its red lights flashing and stop arm deployed.
Because it's physically possible to approach something while remaining stationary?
llsf
I cannot wait for the school bus to be a waymo, that could tell the other waymos around that it is full of vulnerable and unpredictable little humans, and to be on the watch out.
standardUser
San Francisco is the crucible (by US standards) of dealing with pedestrians and I'm still shocked they launched there so early. But with something as distinct and vulnerable as school busses, it's time to think about hardware installation so automated vehicles can "see" farther ahead.
SoftTalker
"approached the school bus from an angle where the flashing lights and stop sign were not visible"
I call bullshit on that. Yes the stop sign is only on the left side but the flashing lights are on all four corners of the bus. You'd need to be approaching the side of the bus from a direct right angle to not see the flashing lights.
trhway
there have been increase of "aggressiveness" of autonomous cars. My earlier comment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45609139 . May be that aggressiveness is sold internally as some optimization enabled by the higher skills of the robot-driver.
black_13
[dead]
To be honest. I think this is one of the strengths of autonomous cars.
With humans when they do this at max we can punish that individual. To increase population wide compliance we can do a safety awareness campaign, ramp up enforcement, ramp up the fines. But all of these cost a lot of money to do, take a while to have an effect, need to be repeated/kept up, and only help statistically.
With a robot driver we can develop a fix and roll it out on all of them. Problem solved. They were doing the wrong thing, now they are doing the right thing. If we add a regression test we can even make sure that the problem won't be reintroduced in the future. Try to do that with human drivers.