US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs
65 comments
·October 18, 2025BirAdam
keiferski
Yeah as an American that has been living abroad for a decade and will be a dual citizen soon: I don’t agree with that take at all.
The vast majority of people in the US still see their future in the US. Dual citizenship, much less actually living abroad, is still an extremely niche topic and basically only a thing amongst upper middle class and above professionals and tech workers.
And as chaotic and concerning as many political events may be, the idea that the US will become “a failed state” is pretty divorced from the actual reality of what that term means. If the US becomes a failed state, trust me, the rest of the world will be too.
CaptainOfCoit
> The vast majority of people in the US still see their future in the US.
I mean, obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place.
Just an anecdote, also with bias, but almost every American I've met outside of the US (from all walks of life, from uber rich to almost homeless) seems to agree with the idea that the US is approaching a "no turning back" point, and cites that as being the reason they moved away.
> If the US becomes a failed state, trust me, the rest of the world will be too.
I'm fairly sure every citizen of a huge empire felt like that too, through the ages. Rome citizens surely felt the same, until it turned out that no single entity is powerful enough that the entire world would be "failed" just because one nation failed.
keiferski
I think your sample is pretty biased, because that viewpoint doesn’t apply to me or any Americans I’ve met abroad. Skeptical or critical of America and American culture, sure, but I certainly didn’t move abroad because of those reasons.
Most Americans abroad tend to be there because of work, or because their partners are from the country. The number of people able to move abroad because of recent political issues is extremely small, because that sort of life flexibility is not available to the vast, vast majority of people.
I mean, obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place.
Where would they go? Immigrating to another first world country is pretty expensive and difficult. Just picking up and moving somewhere abroad is really not an option for 99% of people.
hypeatei
> And as chaotic and concerning as many political events may be, the idea that the US will become “a failed state” is pretty divorced from the actual reality
Becoming a failed state overnight? Probably not, I agree. Midterm elections are approaching and the federal government has already shown its willingness to deploy the military to big cities for intimidation purposes. Also don't forget: our current President also tried to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after the 2020 election. I feel like we get stuck in this "nothing ever happens" loop while our liberties slowly get stripped away and even after a thing happens, we delude ourselves by saying it won't actually get that bad. Frogs in a pot.
keiferski
There’s a very big difference between a failed state and life slowly getting worse, institutional rotting, etc.
I really don’t foresee a scenario where America turns into Somalia or Haiti in the near future.
hollerith
I agree: although there is a very small chance that civil war will break out in the US, there's essentially zero chance it becomes a failed state.
The administrative consensus created by FDR is breaking down, and it is not yet clear what will replace it. (Trump is unlikely to be the main architect of the new administrative consensus.) To people who cannot help but view everything through the lens of the old consensus, it looks like the entire US society is breaking down, but the US is very good at invention and reinvention, so once the outlines of a new administrative consensus forms, state capacity will return very quickly, e.g., the long-overdue phasing out of coal for generating electricity will finally come to pass, etc.
I'm indebted to George Friedman for this account of the current dysfunction in US society.
futureshock
I’ll borrow ideas from investing: financial independence, diversification and optionality. If you have enough money you can free yourself from the labor market, but you are still deeply tied to your home country. A second citizenship gives you geopolitical independence. And just like diverse investments protect you from the failure of a specific asset, diverse countries can protect you from, for example, a collapse in heath care, a housing crisis or a currency crisis. And most importantly, its like an options contract on life. You have the option, not the commitment to take a high value move to a new country. If the fortunes of your current country sink and your second country rise, you can exercise your option.
There’s a reason people are willing to spend so much on golden visas with the pathway to citizenship.
ashleyn
What would be the most realistic and best option for a second visa for someone with a ~$1-3MM net worth?
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pydry
>And just like diverse investments protect you from the failure of a specific asset, diverse countries can protect you from, for example, a collapse in heath care, a housing crisis or a currency crisis.
Although, just like certain asset classes correlate strongly, certain countries are geopolitically, economically, militarily tied at the hip and will both rise and fall together.
I wouldnt consider anywhere western a good hedge against America going down coz it has a really good chance of getting dragged down with it.
dotnet00
Not a citizen, but yes, I've had a shift in perspective lately and noticed a similar shift among other immigrants of keeping backup options in mind rather than thinking of America as a reliable place to be.
Even if we view the current situation as temporary and it goes away in 4 years, the knowledge that a large chunk of the population is just looking for an excuse to harass immigrants and destroy their life regardless of citizenship status, pulls America down to the level of many other places, which maybe have similar issues but do much better on other things.
rayiner
> I agree that Dual Citizenship is a dream among a large plurality of Americans
I would be shocked if it’s even above 10%.
zoklet-enjoyer
It looks like a huge hassle, but I should be able to get citizenship in an EU county based on ancestry. I should do that sooner than later.
aaronrobinson
If it’s Italy you may be disappointed as they’ve recently changed the rules
rayiner
> I should be able to get citizenship in an EU county based on ancestry
Imagine complaining about America and then fleeing to an ethnostate.
Argonaut998
There are no ethnostates in Europe anymore unfortunately. Every European city is indistinguishable from New York these days
BolexNOLA
Been exploring it in my household for sure.
jghn
Same. It's shifted from an escapist fantasy about getting away from it all to a more literal definition of "escapist fantasy". if it weren't for family & friend ties binding us to our geographical area it'd already be a lot more serious. We're not *that* far from a low end FIRE situation, so a move to a more LCOL country could make a ton of sense and escape ... all of this.
sippeangelo
From an EU perspective I would have been out of there in February. But what is it they say, again? "Grass is always browner on the other side"? It also helps being part of a minority that the sitting regime wants to exterminate to the very definition of the word.
BolexNOLA
I get a lot of grief for it from a few people but the simple fact is it’s gone from an unthinkable possibility to something I would consider a single-digit- percentage possibility. At that point it feels like something I need to at least be moderately prepared for. Especially as someone in the gulf south.
It just doesn’t feel very safe down here anymore. Watching ICE roll through in full equipment on armored vehicles during Mardi Gras this year was a serious wake up call. That’s not the kind of show of force you do for shits and giggles. That’s textbook “send them a message.”
RcouF1uZ4gsC
There aren’t that many places out of America’s orbit where you would want to live.
If by failure you mean fascist and authoritarian, America could still reach you.
steveBK123
Agreed, the problem is that in many scenarios where the US becomes a failed state.. you probably want to be IN the US rather than living under our security umbrella (Canada/Europe/Japan/Korea/Taiwan/Australia). Or worse, in a nation we might end up in a shooting war with (Russia/China).
Either enemies are going to make moves in our absence, or we are going to pray upon former allies (next orange man takes his trade wars kinetic).
So I'd rather still be in the exponentially larger (population & land) isolated continental power surrounded mostly by water and smaller states.
DSingularity
> still reach you
Yeah but the effort just went up 10x
Besides I don’t think they are moving to resist the fascism. It’s to seek an alternative and carry on living.
khuey
More applicable to the average American traveler's life than whether they can visit 180 or 181 countries without a visa is the rise of electronic travel authorization requirements from other countries. The UK imposed one earlier this year and the EU is set to do the same next year (though ETIAS seems perpetually delayed). While everyone involved (except Australia) insists that electronic travel authorizations are not visas they are for all practical purposes.
sojournerc
Having recently traveled through the UK as a US citizen, it was a 5 minute process in an app. Nothing to be concerned about. Honduras, where I travel frequently, already does fingerprints as the EU is about to do. It's just not a big deal or a barrier to travel. Currently going from Scandinavia to Northern continental Europe and it couldn't be easier. So much FUD for so little change.
whycome
Do you think it’s a 5 min process for everyone?
khuey
It's not that it's a big deal, it's that these rankings are pointless because they say that US citizens can go to the UK visa free but not Vietnam when in practice the requirement to enter both countries is exactly the same (go on a website, fill out a form, and pay $20ish).
sojournerc
Yah, I'm not disagreeing. US passport is still very good, if only because of easy access to US embassies abroad in case of trouble. I don't mind a little paperwork to travel to other countries
gp
There are multiple ties in the list that actually put the US passport tied for 37th in the ranking.
latexr
The measure for how “powerful” a passport is:
> The Henley Passport Index is the original, authoritative ranking of all the world’s passports according to the number of destinations their holders can access without a prior visa.
https://www.henleyglobal.com/passport-index
According to the article, the US passport was at the top of the list a decade ago, last year it was in seventh place, and now it’s in twelfth.
Novosell
Shared 12th. There are many ties. It is 36th overall, as in 35 countries can go to more places without a visa.
latexr
Fair point. To add, last year when it was in 7th it had 25 countries above it. The website only goes as far back as 2016, and at that point it was in 4th place with 10 countries above it.
Havoc
tbh anything in the top 25% of the listing is more or less the same. You need to travel to some pretty exotic places to hit difference.
Still, the US certainly isn't doing itself any favours on rep lately
NaOH
Two days ago:
US Passport Power Falls to Historic Low - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45595746 - Oct 2025 (169 comments)
Argonaut998
Tourism metrics are pointless and I'm surprised no one thought of a better way to measure these rankings involving freedom to work, freedom to live, access to embassies, geopolitical power etc
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graemep
Its a very simplistic measure. How easy it is to get visas is at least as important. From a practical point of view allow dual nationality is a big convenience.
Thaxll
This list is useless, it's much better to have a US / Can / EU passport than Singapore for example, Singapore has 50 overseas missions world-wide, for instance France has 280, good luck if you're in trouble oversea.
Havoc
That plus EU missions are obligated to help other EU nationals if they don't have home country representation via their own country
wslh
For a one-click list of the index, go to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henley_Passport_Index> instead of Heinley's site.
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gethly
It is very weird list when dozens of countries reside on the same spot in the list. It would make more sense to have levels or ratings, instead of places.
I agree that Dual Citizenship is a dream among a large plurality of Americans, but I don’t think it’s for Visa-free tourism. I think it’s because a growing number of Americans feel that the country is unstable and likely headed toward a failed-state status.