iPhone Air
1098 comments
·September 9, 2025aurareturn
mgerdts
If you compare the specs of the 10 and 11 series watches you will see they both claim high blood pressure detection.
https://www.apple.com/watch/compare/?modelList=watch-series-...
In the past few weeks the oxymeter feature was enabled by a firmware update on series 10. Measurements are done on the watch, results are only reported on a phone.
sgustard
Good to know! The fine print:
As of September 9, 2025, hypertension notifications are currently under FDA review and expected to be cleared this month, with availability on Apple Watch Series 9 and later and Apple Watch Ultra 2 and later. The feature is not intended for use by people under 22 years old, those who have been previously diagnosed with hypertension, or pregnant persons.
astrange
A19 supports MTE: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45186265
Which is a very powerful feature for anyone who likes security or finding bugs in their code. Or other people's code. Even if you didn't really want to find them.
rising-sky
MIE
philodeon
MIE is a combination of enhanced MTE (EMTE) and some highly-overdue software allocator improvements.
babl-yc
I've always been a bit confused about when to run models on the GPU vs the neural engine. The best I can tell, GPU is simpler to use as a developer especially when shipping a cross platform app. But an optimized neural engine model can run lower power.
With the addition of NPUs to the GPU, this story gets even more confusing...
avianlyric
In reality you don’t much of a choice. Most of the APIs Apple exposes for running neural nets don’t let you pick. Instead some Apple magic in one of their frameworks decides where it’s going to host your network. At least from what I’ve read, these frameworks will usually distribute your networks over all available matmul compute, starting on the neural net (assuming your specific network is compatible) and spilling onto the GPU as needed.
But there isn’t a trivial way to specifically target the neural engine.
babl-yc
You're right there is no way to specifically target the neural engine. You have to use it via CoreML which abstracts away the execution.
If you use Metal / GPU compute shaders it's going to run exclusively on GPU. Some inference libraries like TensorFlow/LiteRT with backend = .gpu use this.
AdventureMouse
> If the M5 generation gets this GPU upgrade, which I don't see why not, then the era of viable local LLM inferencing is upon us.
I don't think local LLMs will ever be a thing except for very specific use cases.
Servers will always have way more compute power than edge nodes. As server power increases, people will expect more and more of the LLMs and edge node compute will stay irrelevant since their relative power will stay the same.
seanmcdirmid
LocalLLMs would be useful for low latency local language processing/home control, assuming they ever become fast enough where the 500ms to 1s network latency becomes a dominate factor in having a fluid conversation with a voice assistant. Right now the pauses are unbearable for anything but one way commands (Siri, do something! - 3 seconds later it starts doing the thing...that works but it wouldn't work if Siri needed to ask follow up questions). This is even more important if we consider low latency gaming situations.
Mobile applications are also relevant. An LLM in your car could be used for local intelligence. I'm pretty sure self driving cars use some about of local AI already (although obviously not LLM, and I don't really know how much of their processing is local vs done on a server somewhere).
If models stop advancing at a fast clip, hardware will eventually become fast and cheap enough that running models locally isn't something we think about as being a non-sensical luxury, in the same way that we don't think that rendering graphics locally is a luxury even though remote rendering is possible.
hapticmonkey
If the future is AI, then a future where every compute has to pass through one of a handful of multinational corporations with GPU farms...is something to be wary of. Local LLMs is a great idea for smaller tasks.
MPSimmons
The crux is how big the L is in the local LLMs. Depending on what it's used for, you can actually get really good performance on topically trained models when leveraged for their specific purpose.
pdpi
As an industry, we've swung from thin clients to fat clients and back countless times. I'm sure LLMs won't be immune to that phenomenon.
waterTanuki
I regularly use local LLMs at work (full stack dev) due to restrictions and occasionally I get some results comparable to gpt-5 or opus 4
eprparadox
this is really cool. could you say a bit about your setup (which llms, what tasks they’re best for, etc)?
rowanG077
That's assuming diminishing returns won't hit hard. If a 10x smaller local model is 95%(Whatever that means) as good as the remote model it makes sense to use local models most of the time. It remains to be seen if that will happen but it's certainly not unthinkable imp.
sercand
Where did you see the matmul acceleration support? I couldn't find this detail online.
aurareturn
Apple calls it "Neural Accelerators". It's all over their A19 marketing.
kamranjon
Don’t all of the M series chips contain neural cores?
emchammer
Does this mean that equivalent logic for what has been called Neural Engine is now integrated into each CPU core?
kridsdale3
What a ridiculous way to market "linear algebra transistor array".
ActorNightly
Good luck actually getting access to ANE. There is a reason why Pytorch doesn't use it even if its been around for a while.
commandersaki
Hoping this budget macbook rumour based on A19/A19 Pro is real.
Nokinside
The first SoC including Neural Engine was the A11 Bionic, used in iPhone 8, 8 Plus and iPhone X, introduced in 2017. Since then, every Apple A-series SoC has included a Neural Engine.
aurareturn
The Neural Engine is its own block. Neural Engine is not used for local LLMs on Macs. Neural Engine is optimized for power efficiency while running small models. It's not good for LARGE language models.
This change is strictly adding matmul acceleration into each GPU core where it is being used for LLMs.
jdprgm
Can someone that is actually interested in this explain the appeal? Thin on its own I get but thin with a giant bump 100% defeats the whole point for me. Seems clear at this point there is little hope of them engineering their way into thin cameras.
arcane23
Doubt most people want it as thin as possible. This is just the phone industry running out of ideas and trying to tell people what they actually need.
There's not much left to "fix" on mobile phones, and no real important features to add. Lacking that, they need something to sell the phones with, so they're going for these strange "improvements". It needs to be something that has some wow factor so they can lead with. This seems to somehow work on normal people so they'll keep doing these "improvements".
I expect in the future they'll pull this trick again, moving bits of the phone upwards towards camera, and create a second notch from half way down, where the phone will get even thinner, and they'll sell that.
jdprgm
I can think of quite a few things to fix just they are extraordinarily difficult engineering problems versus 10-20% improvements on existing features or random tweaks:
- novel approach to camera optics that can completely flatten them into the phone - front camera hidden behind the screen removing the island or inset - dramatically better battery tech density leading to like week long usage - way more ram (100gb+) and processing power for powerful local llm and other ai - significant reduction in thickness and weight. like this air with no bump but also under 100 grams - maybe some stuff with projectors
Liftyee
Note that hidden front cameras have been available for a while - for example, the Samsung Z Fold 3 (2021). There are some engineering tradeoffs involved with light transmission and image quality that maybe Apple doesn't find favorable.
Interestingly Chinese manufacturers seem to be the main adopters of this tech. For example, the article below has Samsung, Xiaomi, ZTE, Oppo, Vivo (actually, this may just be due to there being many more large Chinese phone manufacturers in general.) https://www.smartprix.com/bytes/under-display-camera-phones/
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m463
I agree with you, you're still going to put it in a fat case to protect the camera.
Personally, I think thin is just "omg look at my engineering". blah blah.
I found the (expensive!) bullstrap case to be helpful - thin and slippery enough to slide out of a pocket easily, well engineered to protect the camera.
But really, I think the iphone 13 mini was the most useful/practical application of apple's engineering.
I think a mini-sized 3-camera bulge phone would be great.
cogogo
Never once used a case in 12+ yrs of iphone ownership and only cracked a screen once. Think there are a lot of people out there like me. Many people are way too anal about an every day utilitarian device.
wing-_-nuts
I bought a new pixel, bought a case that had slow shipping. Only a week, what could go wrong? I dropped it flat on the screen on a tile floor.
Cases are dirt cheap, if you're paying over $30 for one you're probably overpaying. The expected value of a screen repair, not only the cost but your time makes it a no-brainer.
y1n0
For me, i use a case because the damn phones are slippery as hell.
notyourwork
Same here, ditched cases a few years ago and never been happier. It’s a tool, not an heirloom.
ashdksnndck
How often do you drop your phone on the ground? For me it’s probably once a week.
jmtulloss
I'm the same way but that makes the bulge even more annoying. They're designing it to put a case on it.
The thickness should be from the front to the back of the camera lens, not to the thinnest point they can find.
conductr
Same, I get random “raw dogging it” comments from strangers much more often than I drop my phone even since having kids. Ironically via raw dogging it.
gooseus
Same, and I've never had to replace a phone or screen once... I wouldn't need two hands to count the number of times I've even had a scare.
People need to get a grip. ;)
crazygringo
> you're still going to put it in a fat case to protect the camera.
But a thinner phone still means the end result is thinner in a case.
I didn't understand the appeal of thin phones until I used them in cases.
Average thickness phone + case = bulky phone.
Thin phone + case = normal thickness phone.
That's what makes them great. It's normal thickness with all the protection.
mcv
Yeah, super thin phones that require bulky cases have never made sense to me. Why not make tough phones that don't require a case?
humpty-d
Because if the case gets damaged you can easily replace it.
People would still put a case on a bulky phone to protect resale or trade in value.
A super thin phone doesn't require a super bulky case, it requires just as much case as a person would normally use, resulting in a smaller overall profile.
I'd probably still go pro because I care more about the camera than the size.
jrockway
I think the reality is that your phone will always encounter something that can damage it (unless it's made out of diamond), and a case lets you easily replace the damaged part.
Just subjectively, I remember having a super scratched iPod and it just felt kind of ratty every time you looked at it. Meanwhile, a phone in a leather case gets kind of a patina that improves with age. It is kind of sad though, I got a really pretty blue iPhone and you wouldn't even know it because it's completely covered by a case.
badc0ffee
They're sort of doing that with Ceramic Shield, and the new bumper case for the Air.
kccqzy
I've only broken the iPhone camera once in more than a decade of using iPhones. And that's when I was in IKEA and a box of unassembled furniture fell onto it.
If you really want protection, the screen is still more fragile than the camera.
psyclobe
iPhone 13 mini pro was the best phone they ever made.
ChrisMarshallNY
There was never a "Pro" version of it. I have the Mini (13). I plan to ride it into the sunset.
joshjob42
I'm going to preorder one because I want a light phone and a large screen. This will be the lightest iPhone in years while also having a bigger screen than most. I dropped from the Pro Max to the Pro last year because I was tired of how much it hurt when I dropped my phone on my face.
I don't have much call for most of the camera system, and my battery life on my Pro is just fine. I have plenty of chargers typically, and for emergencies or times I know I'm going to be out I could potentially get the battery pack.
I basically never use cases on my iPhone, and at most will maybe use an ultra-thin one or some sort of structure adhered to the plateau just to make it flat across so as to not rock on a table.
sonofhans
> I dropped from the Pro Max to the Pro last year because I was tired of how much it hurt when I dropped my phone on my face.
Now this, good people, is a real use case. If it seems like an edge case to you, I guarantee Apple’s design and product people know of — and optimize for — use cases much more rare.
djtango
But apparently they don't engineer for smaller hands, one hand usage or fits comfortably in a pocket when you're running
notcodingtoday
Easy mid-way product realization from research they had to do for folding phones.
MichaelZuo
Yeah makes sense to do so when the R&D is practically already paid for.
JumpCrisscross
> Can someone that is actually interested in this explain the appeal?
It’s light and the thinness is just fun. I’m not putting a case on it. And I really don’t understand why a phone needs to sit flat on a table—if anything, the angle is a plus.
zargon
It’s only 12 grams lighter than my iPhone XS. And it’s 20 grams heavier than my Pixel 4a. For a product called “air”, It doesn’t even succeed at being light-weight.
crossroadsguy
No no. You don't get it. That weight is perfect weight for human hands - that exact/specific weight. It's Apple engineered. After more than a decade of waiting on doing anything remotely revolutionary they finally cracked it. It's the right weight. The weight.
cogogo
At least for me something so thin feels better with a bit of heft. And if you read the article the idea was to use any space saved for the battery. Seems pretty slick
crossroadsguy
> if anything, the angle is a plus
Right. I am sure flatness would have Revolutionary™ had Apple decided to make it rather flat (of course with the "First Time Again In An iPhone™" tag).
jonathanberger
Flat doesn't seem best to you? Next best for me would be a symmetrical bump. But the asymmetrical bump (I think) all iPhones have seems the worst of all alternatives. This results in that bad restaurant table wobble feeling.
teaearlgraycold
The Air and 17 Pro have symmetrical bumps.
Workaccount2
iPhone status symbol without having to haul around a huge bulky phone.
Most users probably use/need 10% of what a max pro iPhone offers, but they want 100% of the max pro status.
Now they can keep the status without needing to carry a chonker.
jdprgm
The idea of an iPhone still as a status symbol in 2025 seems strange to me. I understood it in 2008. They are so commonplace and also not really that expensive where it is a financial flex like some watch that cost 10k+ or something.
shaboinkin
“Sixty-three percent of adults said they would cover a hypothetical $400 emergency expense exclusively using cash or its equivalent, unchanged from 2022 and 2023 but down from a high of 68 percent in 2021.”
https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2025-economic-we...
$999 is a lot of money.
brailsafe
> They are so commonplace and also not really that expensive where it is a financial flex like some watch that cost 10k+ or something.
I definitely agree about them being just about the most banal stupid toy you could spend the money on, but it's still a lot of money to a lot of people despite the cost of basic necessities making it not the huge amount that it used to be. I cringe at paying over $450, considering that every new model of phone since like 2015 hasn't really done anything worth significantly more money.
Yizahi
They are between 1000 to 1500 USD over here in EU. Pretty much only very well off people are buying current gen iPhones. Many people have older models. We also don't have any Apple lock-in culture, so there is much less incentive to go out of your way to get iPhone specifically.
dmix
It's just a proxy for people to complain about the price. People will complain about a few hundred dollars in a phone price differences, even though it will be the one product they use more than anything else they own. And then not blink spending a couple extra grand on some car features/performance they use rarely or spend a thousand dollars a year on lattes.
HeavenFox
Further, in the US, non-iPhone have terrible resale value, so the monthly cost of iPhone can be cheaper
null
fortran77
You're in the US.
ar_lan
Is iPhone still viewed as a status symbol?
Genuine question - maybe I'm too in my own bubble but it seems like iPhone just completely dominates the market and is viewed as the "default" phone, which to me implies status quo, not luxury.
Yizahi
> maybe I'm too in my own bubble
Is it a green bubble or a blue bubble? :)
afavour
The Pro is still seen by some as a "flex" by some, visibly having all three lenses. The Air is likely just a more visible flex, thus it will probably sell well.
JumpCrisscross
> Is iPhone still viewed as a status symbol?
In wealthy circles, no. Anywhere else, yes, it’s a thousand-dollar device.
crossroadsguy
Yes, only by people who own an iPhone. It's a special kind of bubble.
Aeolun
There’s status in not being one of the android paupers.
Nyr
You are in a bubble: the anglosphere. In most of the world, the iPhone does not dominate the market.
thekevan
I bought a new iPhone 13 for $200 a few months ago and I love it. It does everything I need by far. Newer iPhones take better pictures, yes, but the 13 is still no slouch in that regard.
ar_lan
I have my iPhone 13 Pro Max for 4 years now and the only problem I really have is storage and the battery.
I'm debating if I just replace the battery and let this run another year... since the iPhone X I haven't seen any major upgrades still that feel like they'll matter in my day-to-day life.
A flip would be different...
dzonga
where from ?
barbazoo
> haul around a huge bulky phone
> chonker
Can't see the specs for the iPhone Air but it looks much larger than my SE 2022. I wish they would bring that form factor back. Obviously not as powerful as bigger iPhones so not useful for posing purposes.
epolanski
I think you're making up a non existent issue.
On the other hand, the cameras on plateaus are real issues because they don't lay normally and the cameras are very easy to scratch.
kelnos
So I don't get this. Yes, my N=1 experience, but: I don't put my phone in a case, and only use a screen protector. I have a Pixel 8 (arguably one of the more notoriously ridiculous camera bumps), but have of course had other phones with camera bumps before this. I am generally careful with my phone, but of course I've dropped it, knocked it off a table onto the floor, etc. But I've never ever scratched the camera. Have I just been lucky, or are they harder to scratch than one would expect?
hrfvbgcc
Is there, in your experience, a group of people that consider a phone a substantial status symbol?
(Edit: Should have refreshed I see. Feel free to ignore.)
unsupp0rted
[flagged]
choilive
iPhone hasnt been a status symbol in many years. Its as mainstream as a Toyota Corolla.
leonewton253
Umm most people buy them for the hardware. On paper my 16e sounds really good but is crap compared to the 17 pros cameras plus photonic engine. Apple gimps software in non pros. I don't take alot of pics so I don't really care for the pro. Id rather get an old DSLR.
computerdork
It's about the size and even more importantly the weight. I like small, light phones (I currently have the iphone 13 mini). I want something small that I can slip into my pocket and it's not this brick bouncing around as take a walk.
Although, I'm not a big phone user though, mainly use it when I'm outside of the house. In the house, I'll just use my laptop.
mikepurvis
I'm also pretty happy with my iPhone 13 mini and loathing having to upgrade to something much larger.
For reference, the 13 mini has a 5.4" screen, and the new-gen iPhones are 6.3", 6.5", and 6.8". Pixel 10 is 6.3" as well.
iPhone 5 was the most perfect size ever and was about 0.3" shorter than the 13 mini, though it had a much smaller screen due to the bezel: https://www.gsmarena.com/size-compare-3d.php3?idPhone1=5685&...
seec
Exactly in the same boat.
Apple offering is underwhelming to say the least and way too expensive for my use case.
I want to go Android anyway, I'm too disillusioned with Apple currently, I'm tired of dealing with their predatory behavior. But there aren't a lot of decent options there as well but at least you can get it much cheaper, so that's something, I guess.
Previously Apple was the provider of hardware which made the right compromise to allow specific/focused use case, they called it "taste" in a sea of nonsense with bullshit "features". But now it feels like Apple has joined in on the nonsense and is actually leading the pack; which is why the price feels bad. If you are going to make the same crap as everyone else with the same set of bad compromises, I'm not going to overpay for it.
I think this is why Apple "AI" got so much backlash. If they didn't make it or at least market it as heavily as they, did it would have been fine, but it was just the same crap as everyone else, just worse and more expensive. They could have released the exact same phone, just shaving a 100 dollar and have been acclaimed and made more money that way I believe.
computerdork
Me too, will probably keep the 13 mini for like a decade
a785236
It's 17% heavier than the iphone 13 mini.
Source: https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone-13-mi...
joshjob42
But lighter than any iPhone since except maybe an SE.
mallets
No mention of the actual weight here but a quick search says 165 grams. Not as light as I expected.
jeroenhd
Several brands have released an ultra thin version of their phone, followed by a foldable version of their phone. One phone depth is good for just about everyone, but you can't double that up, you'd get a phone that's too bulky for modern tastes.
It stands to reason the iFold/iPaper/iSheet/whatever Apple will call it is drawing closer now that Samsung and several Chinese brands have pretty much solved the design for Apple.
nakamoto_damacy
I have an iPhone 13 mini, just replaced the battery. If you want my money, give me an iPhone 17 mini with small width and height, I don't care about it being thinner like the Air. Also, no AI ruining the image quality of the expensive camera. I saw examples of a consumer-grade digital camera vs an iPhone 16 and the latter introduced "hotdog skin" effect and other effects that made the photos look over-processed.
CephalopodMD
Also still rocking a 13 mini. There are dozens of us! Dozens!
(Also to those who say not enough people wanted a mini phone to be worth producing: I submit the case of Prego chunky pasta sauce. Not many people want a chunky pasta sauce, but you sell a whole lot more pasta sauce in total if you sell both regular and chunky pasta sauce. Malcolm Gladwell has a TED talk about this.)
amilios
Unfortunately both the 12 Mini and the 13 Mini did terrible numbers sales-wise. People say they want small phones but not enough of them actually buy them when they are available. :(
Cyph0n
“An iPhone mini would sell like hotcakes” is a HN meme at this point.
notatoad
do people seriously not remember that an iPhone mini used to exist, and definitely did not sell like hotcakes?
okanat
People don't buy phones every year. People don't want to pay 95% price for 80% of performance / features.
Smaller phones as an idea isn't the problem here. Companies just don't want to make equivalent smaller phones. Making a new phone every single year is a stupid trend that causes min-max effects. A good small phone will eat into profits that's harder to make up in a yearly cycle. People will not buy nerfed smaller phones which is a positive feedback cycle.
rTX5CMRXIfFG
> People don't want to pay 95% price for 80% of performance / features.
I want to believe this too but you have to look at iPhone sales numbers
1oooqooq
exactly. it's a fashion issue. as in literal fashion.
roughly
“Terrible numbers sales-wise” is a bit of a distortion when talking about iPhones - the number that went around in 2022 was the 13 accounted for 3% of iPhone sales in 2021, which indeed sounds terrible - except Apple sold somewhere around a quarter billion iPhones that year, which means ~7.5 million iPhone 13 minis in 2021 alone. Those are numbers that anyone else would kill for. That’s just about the entire population of New York City buying an iPhone. There’s 35 states with fewer people than that. Ford sold fewer F-150s in the last decade than Apple sold iPhone 13 Minis in 2021 alone.
yunwal
3% of sales means a sub-par experience for those users. Every app developer will say “oh yeah let’s test on the pro and normal sizes. Mini might break but that’s ok.”
nerdponx
The problem is that the people who want small phones also don't like buying new phones.
Also last I checked the "mini" phones weren't particularly mini, phones just got bigger.
4k93n2
we will never really know for sute because the minis were gimped compared to the max options that had an extra telephoto lens and better ram/storage options
ricardobeat
Each of those models sold at least 6 million units, about the same as the Xbox One in its first year, which was a “huge success”…
RistrettoMike
... was the Xbox One a "huge success" ?
torstenvl
This meme needs to die. Normal-sized iPhones account for tens of millions of sales per year.
The fact that Apple was absolutely schizophrenic about its non-phablet market, introducing the iPhone mini 13 and iPhone SE 2022 at the same time, is utterly irrelevant to that point.
rkomorn
People want to buy small phones like they want to pay for Firefox.
A few people say it very loudly and nobody else does.
givemeethekeys
I was one of those people who bought an iphone 13 mini. When someone sees it, their first question is, "what phone is that?", unless they too own an iPhone 13 mini or owned a small iPhone before that.
People do think that being able to use the phone with just one hand is cool, but most people, even small-handed people, like to have a big screen to watch stuff on.
fossuser
I loved the mini and bought both the 12 and 13 mini. Also bought it for my siblings. Unfortunately after its sales Apple is very unlikely to ever make a small phone again.
jcul
My main phone for a year or so has been a unihertz jelly star. Kind of an extreme but it's so nice in your hand / pocket. Definitely not thin though!
infotainment
I just wish Unihertz wasn't so questionable! Can't a decent company make a small phone? (And actually update the software on it? And comply with the GPL?)
null
ManBeardPc
I want an extra thick model instead, let’s call it iPhone Travel (or Ultra?). Just thick enough so the cameras are no longer sticking out. Give me an all-week battery instead of an all-day one. Slim down the power usage and give a power saver mode that actually does make a difference. Let me go on a weekend trip in nature or festival without having to carry extra hardware or having to look for public charging stations.
manacit
Personally, I really like being able to use lightweight MagSafe batteries instead of having a thicker iPhone. I used to agree with you, but the tech has gotten ridiculously good the last couple of years.
With something like https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HRY02LL/A/anker-maggo-pow..., you get a magsafe battery that doubles the life of an iPhone and can be independently recharged, and is so slim that I can put it in my pocket attached to my iPhone and not notice.
bsimpson
I have an Anker battery and a Peak Design case.
The wireless battery just slows the drain unless my phone is totally idle while charging. I really don't think wireless charging is very effective, at least it hasn't been with my 3yo phone and magnetic battery (even when both were new).
aDyslecticCrow
Isnt that just a replicable battery with extra steps?
fragmede
fewer steps, actually. as a user, you reach into your backpack pull out the battery pack, and put it on phone, check that it's charging, and then move on with your life. Replaceable battery, there's the extra steps of powering it off, opening up the case, taking out the old battery, putting in the new battery, closing the case, powering it on, waiting for it to boot up. So many extra steps!
crazygringo
Is slapping the MagSafe battery on once when you buy it such an extra step it bothers you?
crossroadsguy
[delayed]
crazygringo
Just get the MagSafe battery, then you've got your extra-thick. It already exists.
It's not going to last you all week though. That's not going to just be thick, it's going to be a cube heavy enough to double up as a weapon.
ShakataGaNai
Yes. Give me the iPhone 17 Pro Ultra. It's the Pro Max, but even more battery. Heavier duty case. Like I'm put the thing in a case that makes it big and bulky already, if you give me a heavy duty enough setup that I feel safe letting it go naked, people might actually see the status symbol... instead of the dbrand sticker.
turtlebits
Thick is easy. Get a battery case. I used to have one that allowed for swappable samsung batteries packs that was great.
humpty-d
Getting flashbacks to the HTC Evo era and having a thick ass battery case lol, before that i'd have to swap battery like twice a shift.
grogenaut
This is why I mostly stick with the Moto G models which have easily multi-day battery and cost sub $250.
crossroadsguy
[delayed]
duffyjp
I’ve had a bunch of Moto G phones, I love them. This round I decided to try their upper midrange Edge line.
I found a deal on a Moto Edge 2024 and it’s fantastic. It’s so light and compact vs the Moto G Power, and still can go two full days no problem. The camera is excellent as well, which was my only real gripe with the G phones.
It can plug into my USB-C monitor and act like a Chromebook (more or less). I play Minecraft with my kids this way.
gman83
Back when replaceable batteries were a thing I got this beast for my Galaxy Note 4 - https://blog.gsmarena.com/zerolemon-offers-10000mah-extended... ... it was ridiculous but awesome.
Uehreka
iPhone Travel? Please. We don’t go on Craig-approved drug-fueled vision quests just to land on mediocrity like that. You’re close though.
It’s gonna be the iPhone Voyager.
creer
"Impossibly thin" is right in line with Patrick McGee's "Apple in China" who argues that the main reason for Apple's designs is to keep imitators at bay by introducing manufacturing challenges that only they can meet. Indeed impossible at the time of release. One generation after the other. He estimates this gains them about 6 months of headway. Tough world.
(Yes, to be fair, there is more to this new phone than just "impossibly thin".)
runjake
The Samsung S25 Edge, which has already been on the market for a while, seems to be pretty popular.
It's 0.16mm thicker than the Air. I've got to admit it was surprisingly pleasant to hold.
I even did a low key bend test and it did not bend, but I literally had store security walk up to me and ask me not to do that.
A_D_E_P_T
0.16mm is roughly the diameter of a strand of human hair. (0.1 to 0.18mm.) In a consumer product, that's basically imperceptible -- and, in all but the most precision-engineered products, it would be within standard manufacturing tolerances.
So I suppose there already is a phone with an analogous form factor.
metal_am
You're making me wish I still had access to a CMM. I wonder what the tolerances are on an iPhone.
runjake
Yeah. I got a kick out of looking at the specs and the Edge and the Air had the same exact imperial measurement of 0.22 inches.
It just spurred the rage that we still haven't adopted metric in the US -- even after spending a good chunk of the 1970s learning it in school and being promised metric would be the new measurement standard.
LeafItAlone
>but I literally had store security walk up to me and ask me not to do that.
Are you suggesting they did this because they expected it to bend because it was thin? If so, I doubt it. Regardless of thickness, I suspect security would ask someone not to physically damage their devices.
runjake
I don't think they have any knowledge of its tensile strength and they were requesting I stop being a jackass.
IshKebab
What would you have done if it did bend? It's not meant to be unbendable, which would have made you liable for the damages that happened next.
runjake
I kinda metered the amount of force I was using very closely. For lack of a better description, I tested the springiness very carefully. But yeah, would've paid for it.
thinkingtoilet
Is anyone buying an iPhone because it's slightly thinner than other phones? I've never heard anyone say the width of the phone was their reason for picking an iPhone, or any phone for that matter.
9rx
Its unlikely anyone is buying a phone because of how thin it is (within reason), but it is quite likely that they are more likely to learn about a new phone available to buy if it is "impossibly" thin. Advertising is important — even for recognized names like Apple.
bsimpson
My dad had his phone stolen a couple months ago. He bought a used one of Craigslist to replace it.
I'm curious if the new shinies will make him want to upgrade. If it was just iPhone 14, revision 4, I doubt he would care.
umanwizard
There are certainly people buying iPhones essentially for fashion/status-symbol reasons: i.e., because they look visually different from other phones, whether that is because of thinness or anything else. Why else would so many Android devices have copied the FaceID notch so soon after it was released?
bsimpson
Are notches popular? The Androids I've seen have used a hole punch camera ever since Andy Rubin's Essential. There's certainly no Dynamic Island.
icey
I will buy one of these because I want a phone that doesn't create such a huge bulge in my pants pocket
LeafItAlone
>Is anyone buying an iPhone because it's slightly thinner than other phones?
Yes. I have at least two co-workers that have stated (we will see if they follow through) that they are going to move from their current phones (13 Pro and 15 Pro) to the Air because of the thinness.
otterley
I don’t think so. But it gives buyers who were already inclined to buy an iPhone another form factor option. Nothing wrong with choice.
burnt_toast
My sample size is small but the usual reason I hear from non-technical individuals is that they want the best camera possible.
baby
Trend is towards screen real estate now, with folding phones
shuckles
What’s the evidence for which way causality works? Apple solving design problems they care about would inevitably involve solutions only viable at their scale. It’s hard to say whether that’s how they choose their design problems.
Their process seems pretty similar to their approach with unibody MacBooks or the original MacBook Air, both of which were introduced long before imitators were their primary competition.
creer
> What’s the evidence for which way causality works?
One qualifier would be "at scale and profitably."
But for more detail, yes, the situation has changed over time and probably the reasoning has changed over time.
McGee spends a lot of time on the difficulty for Apple R&D to keep up with Apple design bureau's demands. To the point that Apple execs arrive at decisions that for the sake of internal peace and meeting deadlines, Apple Industrial Design is not to make arbitrary demands (like they used to) and must consider manufacturing realities. Which still leaves Manufacturing struggling at every step to keep up. So - usually - manufacturing is very much pushed to the edge of what's possible by Design. Even though Apple teach China phone manufacturing (again "at scale and profitably"). Design are the ones pushing. Whether Design is really concerned with keeping ahead of competitors... is not explicitely told by Apple people. They do seem to love "impossible". In my recollection, it's more McGee's observations and conclusion.
Apple mainland China companies competition has also been a widely varying quantity. In part due to Chinese fashion trends and in part due to Apple political difficulties in China (which come and go). Underlying should be "at scale and profitably": Apple rightly shouldn't care if a few exotic phones come out. That wouldn't matter to their bottom line. They are described as caring when there is a flood of matching phones coming out - and even then with some latency.
Overall btw, "Apple in China" is fantastic. With massive amounts of local color and "story viewed from the Apple China people's side". Lots of bits that were missed if you mostly followed Apple from the side of what we see in the US.
ksec
That was partly true when he was writing the book or doing research, but is no longer true today. China have manage to make phone that is under 5mm, and even stated the only thing that is stopping them getting even thinner is the USB-C port.
numpad0
Thinnest smartphone so far is Chinese HONOR Magic V5 folding phone at 4.1mm, though. iPhone Air is thicker by 1.5mm(1/16") at 5.6mm. Thinnest Samsung Galaxy is 5.8mm.
timerol
> iPhone Air features N1, a new Apple-designed wireless networking chip that enables Wi-Fi 7, Bluetooth 6, and Thread.
Congrats to Apple for finally designing out Broadcom and vertically integrating the wireless chip
megaman821
I wonder if they will eventually add NFC to it. It probably needs to be certified since NFC is used for payments.
bytesandbits
NFC is handled by an NXP chip which is completely different than the Broadcom (wifi, BLE) chip. its a simple, extremely well engineered chip that costs nickels and is passively powered so it doesn't affect battery life at all. No incentives whatsoever to build it in-house. Broadcom and Qualcomm were a whole different story.
IshKebab
Very interesting that it has Thread too. I wonder if that will be a somewhat viable system in a decade. (Show me where I can buy a cheap Thread border gateway that isn't an Apple or Google voice assistant or whatever.)
iAMkenough
We're now on the third generation of iPhones that include Thread radios. Mines been sitting dormant for two years waiting for software that utilizes it.
The Aqara Hub M100 is a nice cheap Thread border router.
bytesandbits
doubling down on matter! Adoption has been slow but it is starting to ramp up quicker
dzink
This has a couple of up sides.
1. Biggest is that Apple can finally tell if people really want a thinner phone (I don’t). Maybe once they find out the answer, they can finally start using the space more productively.
2. They mentioned local LLM in passing, but this is the biggest possible selling point of the executives actually back real work on making them consumer-level easy. Have a LLM marketplace. Let users sub-train with their own ideas and local data. Enable users to privately and safely port their personal LLMs to their next Apple. Apple has the best most efficient hardware available and they have it in millions of pockets. It’s about time they use that to become the dominant phone and personal device maker. Instead of focusing on anorexic phones.
foobarian
Sigh. I can't stand the camera bump. I would run not walk to the nearest Apple store with all my savings if they made a phone where the camera bump is made flush by adding thickness elsewhere to match, filled with extra battery. Thing would last for weeks. Ah well back to reality.
hbn
I see this said all the time but I think people underestimate what an extra few millimeters of thickness would feel like in the hand. Both in terms of grip-ability and weight. I would reckon if people actually got to use a device like that they'd quickly realize they don't want to use it in their day to day.
The iPhone 14 Pro was noticeably heavy, but the switch to titanium the following year made the 15 Pro feel way lighter. The only difference was 206 grams -> 187 grams, but you'd swear it was 25% lighter.
ProfessorLayton
Okay but in this scenario there would still be a slimmer/lighter iPhone to buy, so what's the problem?
The apple watch ultra is thicker and overall bigger than the regular one in the name of better battery life, and people that don't need that buy the regular one. Win win!
fossuser
iPhone 5(s) was peak case design imo and the last to have a flush camera iirc. The 12 and 13 mini were close, but still had the bump.
My personal favorite would be that style with modern chips and a full glass display. Basically an updated mini without a camera bump.
They'll never make this though because the minis proved the market is tiny.
foobarian
I promise you I would love and worship a phone like that every single minute of my life. :-)
But yeah, I know you are right and the market has spoken. I accept this however begrudgingly.
brulard
I guess many people hold a thick device like that - iPhone with a case, battery case, etc.
anonymars
I'll do you one better, how about the camera is not flush but recessed so it is less likely to be the thing that gets smashed?
Tade0
This. I wish it was flush - typically it's actually protruding.
I've seen one guy attach an ECG lead to the back so that he could lay the phone down without the camera part touching the surface. As a bonus you could spin the device on it.
ethagknight
Or smeared with hand grease
bconsta
Pixel 9a is probably the closest to what you're describing on the market today.
kevincox
I love the wide camera bump of the Pixels. It means the phone sits solid on the table without rocking and serves as a nice ledge on the bad for holding it. I wouldn't mind if the phone was thicker for extra battery but the bump is actually a plus in my book.
craftkiller
Which is such a shame because the Pixel 1 was exactly what they are describing. It was a physically perfect phone. It had no camera bump and the front screen wasn't bulging up past the sides so you could drop it without shattering the screen.
Lammy
https://intl.redmagic.gg/products/redmagic-10s-pro is what you want (I have the 9S and absolutely love it)
maerF0x0
> the camera bump is made flush by adding thickness elsewhere
Cant a case do this for you?
bombcar
You can do it with a case, but a case with a battery in it is even thicker.
I'd be at least INTERESTED in seeing what my iPhone 15 Pro Max would look like without a case and with a built-in battery that made it not have a camera hump.
Nextgrid
I wonder if an aftermarket shell and battery could achieve this.
purplecats
why not get a battery attachment case/snapon
humpty-d
why can't apple just my ridiculous combo of wants that represents 0.2% of the market???
layer8
It's thinner, but at 165 grams it's not appreciably lighter than a regular-sized iPhone (the 16e in particular at 167 grams). People generally want a more lightweight phone more than they want a thinner phone. So it's only for people who also want a larger-than-regular iPhone screen.
nomel
I naively assume the amount of internal aluminum/supports probably canceled out some of the potential weight savings.
BugsJustFindMe
> Biggest is that Apple can finally tell if people really want a thinner phone (I don’t).
It's going to be so painful if the answer is yes.
worldsayshi
> Apple can finally tell if people really want a thinner phone
They would need to sell two otherwise equivalent new models att the same time where one is thicker for that.
scblock
That is the dumbest side profile I have ever seen. The camera bump and camera together are thicker than the rest of this thing. By its design it now demands a massive case or just won't ever sit even reasonably flat on a table. Ridiculous.
altairprime
Right now I have to lean my phone on my purse to get a nice reading angle, because the lens block is lopsided and my phone wobbles around otherwise. The Air bump is still a better angle than flat, and I bet the lens doesn’t keep it from resting stably on the lower edge of the chin (?) rather than the lens edge.
apparent
It will arguably sit flatter than the prior iPhones, which rock diagonally. This will be tilted a bit, but at least be stable.
layer8
It won't be completely stable, when used without a case. The geometry is such that on the side of the lens it's the lens that is touching the surface where you put it, not the bar-shaped bump. Meaning, it won't sit on the long edge of the bar.
HarHarVeryFunny
I've got an iPhone XR with a chunky (highly protective) Speck Presidio case that's comfortably thicker than the camera protrusion and therefore lays 100% flat.
Gotta say it would drive me nuts to have a phone that didn't lay flat and couldn't therefore be put down safely on the edge of the sink etc.
xp84
It is really freaking obnoxious, I can attest to that. I think they either don't want to be mistaken for a Pixel for vanity reasons, or it's easier to do the magic camera switching if the 3 cameras are closer together. But for whatever reason, I hate not having the cameras in a row with a plateau that is symmetrical.
OsrsNeedsf2P
Apple is always one step back, two steps forwards.
lnrd
Why should a phone sit flat on a table? What's the advantage of that?
I seriously don't understand this (common) complaint that I see. If anything a slight tilt makes the screen a bit more readable.
joshjob42
I don't want/need the whole thing to be flat but I do prefer it to be stable. For instance if the plateau were a bit thicker so that the camera lens was flush with the surface (even just an extra bar sort of inside the plateau) it would mean that when I put it down it would never rock back and forth when I'm tapping at it on a table.
ricardobeat
The problem with the one-sided camera bump is that the phone is unstable. It wobbles when you touch it, making using it while lying “flat” on the table incredibly annoying.
JBiserkov
"Just" put an magsafe battery on the back.
1. Create a problem.
2. Sell the solution.
3. Profit.
dmix
If it runs all day like they claim that probably won't be a big seller.
paxys
They very conveniently left out a number from "all day".
ManBeardPc
But hey, at least the battery is (partially) replaceable that way.
1970-01-01
The camera bump is there for the same reason the wireless mouse has the charge port on the bottom: Apple want you to hold it.
b_e_n_t_o_n
It will tilt towards you which would actually be more ergonomic than lying flat.
aurareturn
My iPhone 16 Pro with a case doesn't shit flat. I don't see why this is a problem.
jacquesm
> My iPhone 16 Pro with a case doesn't shit flat. I don't see why this is a problem.
That would definitely be a problem.
null
woah
Incredible lift-to-weight ratio is going to contribute to epic hang times from this thing while the camera bump provides a center of gravity for it to rotate around for predictable flight paths.
kridsdale3
Talking about using this thing as a boomerang?
temp0826
Nicknamed The Tomahawk
Nition
It's more the other two dimensions that I want shrunk. Did anyone think their phone was too thick to fit in their pocket?
dan353hehe
No kidding. I just want one that I can use one handed again. I’m on the IPhone SE, have hands that can play an octave + 2 additional keys on a piano, and I can’t reach the whole screen with a single hand.
I’m probably just holding it wrong.
djtango
Occasionally I reach around the other side to press buttons as if I am using a guitar/violin grip but I don't do this enough to not be awkward
Yxven
The trick to this is to attach a handle to the back of it. I'm using one that telescopes from the "popsockets" brand (I'm unaffiliated and have no idea how it compares with other brands). It makes it possible for me to access all parts of my screen holding it one handed. It should be a standard feature.
jghn
I want a handle on the back of my phone even less than I want a larger phone. I also refuse to use cases and any other contraption that adds further bulk.
tines
You can actually swipe down starting at the bottom third of the screen, and the top of the screen will move down so you can reach it with one hand.
fujigawa
Or they can make the phone human-sized and not resort to software hacks to resolve poor ergonomics.
philsnow
That helps with reaching up, but my thumb also doesn't reach the far bottom corner either. I don't have a super-octave handspan but I don't have small hands either.
djtango
I'm glad other people have chimed in. It drives me insane that no one thought to make one-hand mode not change the width as well or be a total aspect change.
Just make it configurable yknow
xp84
Thanks to their incredibly poor demos I believed until THIS MORNING that to do that maneuver, you had to start your downward swipe ON the little bar that's about 2px from the bottom of the screen (which works, but is nearly impossible with a case).
krater23
I have a Unihertz Jelly Star, it fits in my hand and it works great.
margalabargala
Unihertz would be an amzing phone company if they updated their software literally ever.
Instead you are stuck with the OS, and security updates, that were out a year before you bought it. And you can't install LineageOS either.
chongli
We're in the minority. The iPhone Minis did not sell well. I think women especially do not want a small phone because they carry it in a purse anyway (and slap a case on it with an extra handle to make it easier to hold).
cassianoleal
> The iPhone Minis did not sell well.
I’ve said this many times when this came up.
The Mini didn’t fail because it was too small. It failed because it wasn’t small enough.
I want a small phone that I can use single-handedly. A smaller screen is a tradeoff. The Mini had the disadvantage of a smaller screen plus the disadvantage of not being usable with a single hand. Because of that, I never bought one - if I’m going to be handicapped anyway, I’d rather have a larger screen.
Nition
The iPhone Mini size isn't to bad, but I agree to some extent - I think perfect size phone for me would be about original iPhone SE size. It could have a 5" screen if you made it edge-to-edge (for ref the iPhone Mini has a 5.4" screen).
nomel
> It failed because it wasn’t small enough.
I've never seen a preference like this, in real life. Usually the thing closest to what you want is the preferred option. You're suggesting there's a hump in the preference curve, pushing people away from their preference, buying a larger phone than the smallest, when they "want" a smaller one.
I have trouble believing this is true. Do you have any other example of this type of preference curve? I suppose the "uncanny valley" may be one, but that seems more understandable.
Swizec
> The Mini didn’t fail because it was too small. It failed because it wasn’t small enough.
The size is fine. But why they gotta handicap cameras?
All I want is a mini-sized phone with max's camera. Is that so much to ask for?
At this point I'm strongly considering ditching the iPhone and going Watch + Fujifilm Camera. Maybe keep an old phone at home to manage the watch.
vbezhenar
Yep! iPhone 13 Mini: 5.4". iPhone 4S: 3'5". More than 1.5x as large. It's HUGE. It's not really mini.
Give me 3" iPhone. That would be mini.
jajuuka
You can take calls on an Apple Watch. Is that more the size you're looking for?
jghn
> think women especially do not want a small phone because they carry it in a purse anyway
The correlation I saw a while back during one of the debates about the trend towards phablets was it depended a lot on your usage patterns.
Are you someone who tends to use your phone while sitting down? Larger form factor
Are you someone who tends to use your phone standing up, especially while walking? Smaller form factor.
jbverschoor
They didn’t sell well because it was COVID.
You have absolutely no idea how many people are curious which iPhone I have
xp84
Insightful! That's a great point: A period where a lot of people (especially the average-higher-income Apple demographic) were more likely to be sitting at home all day. Having a phone that is heavy and barely pocketable is nbd if you just have it sit on the coffee table or desk all day.
djtango
Hilariously phones are so big they don't fit in some women's bags - clutches or multi compartment bags for example
kelnos
> I think women especially do not want a small phone because they carry it in a purse anyway
Yeah, I've noticed this. Many women also wear clothing where they either have no pockets at all, or the pockets are more decorative than functional, small enough that a truly small phone would have trouble fitting (certainly not the 5.5" iPhone "mini", which is hardly mini at all).
asimpletune
I honestly think they didn't sell well because they were called 'mini'. They should have just marketed them as the base level iPhone and it might have had a chance.
criddell
Apple sold more than 5 million iPhones 13 Mini in 2022. If the phone had come from any other manufacturer it would be considered a hit.
nutjob2
They should have called it the maxi, for 'maximum smallness'.
mistercheph
Because phones are status symbols for most people, what better way to show youve made it then pulling a giant shiny rock out of your pocket.
mike-cardwell
I recently doubled the thickness of my iPhone SE by adding an external battery. Fits in my jeans pocket fine along with several other things in the same pocket. If they can get it that thin, why don't they just add more battery and take us back to the time when we could run phones for weeks between charges.
[edit] I'll answer my own question. Nobody is going to replace an iPhone because it drops from 21 days battery to 14 days battery, but they probably will replace an iPhone that drops from 21 hours battery to 14 hours.
creer
There is an accessory outboard battery for this new iphone.
jghn
Yep. I keep holding out for a new Mini. They keep making phones wider and taller. Thanks Apple!
nathanscully
I’m still holding onto my 12 mini wishing they would update it. Perfect size imo.
thisgoodlife
I like the size of a regular iPhone. What I really want is a lighter phone. Unfortunately, compared to the iPhone 17, the Air is about 30% thinner, with worse battery life, camera, etc, but only around 7% lighter. I was expecting at least 20% lighter if it's called "Air".
jbverschoor
Exactly.. and it’s not even the height. It’s mainly the width + placements of UI elements at the top.
Air could’ve been the perfect mini replacement. Same width, but higher.
But no.. why get the air when the pro has so much more of everything, and is only 100 more
Ericson2314
Yes, the fact that there is no American small phone with an e-ink screen is IMO proof that they basically want us to suffer.
minimaxir
The bumper is back! I was one of the weirdos who liked it unironically for the iPhone 4 back in the day, antennagate prevention aside.
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MH004ZM/A/iphone-air-bump...
It's $39, but if it's indeed rigid as the description implies, then it may be a legit option for drop protection without compromising the thinness.
apparent
Won't it still significantly add to the thickness, at least in terms of making one-handed typing harder?
crooked-v
...unless it lands on the big protruding camera lens.
minimaxir
That's fair. The corresponding full-body case Apple is releasing for $49 does have a conspicious extra lip higher than the camera bulge (albeit that's typical to mitigate camera flash glare). https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MGH24LL/A/iphone-air-case...
duxup
Maybe this will take off like hotcakes but I'm in the "I don't think this does anything for me / anyone" camp.
Granted I loved the 13 mini and that didn't sell so who knows.
matt-attack
It’s clear that super thinness is a technology imperative necessary to get Foldable IPhones. In order to fold, you first must solve thinness (since the final decide will be 2x once folded).
Apple focusing on thinness is proof to me a foldable phone is next.
moomoo11
Why do phones need to bend?
matt-attack
There’s a single and obvious reason. Bigger screen.
And if you’re going to ask why a bigger screen? It’s the same reason your laptop or desktop isn’t 7” wide.
jagged-chisel
Because.
Seriously. Take a look at the foldable touchscreen phones that do exist. "Because" is the only answer.
jboggan
I lament my 13 mini coming to the end of its lifespan. Good design.
kentiko
I attempted to replace my 13 mini's battery today using the iFixit kit. I broke the OLED panel doing so. Removing the screen take much more force than I though. I did this hopping to keep my iPhone maybe 2 more years. Now I am waiting for ordering the 17 next Friday. I will have to manage having half of my screen being white until then...
Jonovono
Same. I have 12 mini and got a 13 mini refurb. Perfect phone.
scyzoryk_xyz
I have mine right here. Upgraded away from iOS but not because it came to the "end of it's lifespan"
mhb
> Granted I loved the 13 mini
It is almost as good as the (smaller) first gen iPhone SE with the physical button.
ortusdux
The group this does something for is the shareholders. Apple is still a product company, but their number one offering is AAPL.
dghlsakjg
… shareholders who expect Apple to sell phones that people want.
noncoml
"It starts at $999 for 256GB", I on the other hand am in the "prices gotten ridicilous" camp
It has A19 Pro. A19 Pro has matmul acceleration in its GPU, the equivalent of Nvidia's Tensor cores. This would make future Macs extremely viable for local LLMs. Currently, Macs have high memory bandwidth and high VRAM capacity but low prompt processing speeds. Give it a large context and it'll take forever before the first token is generated.
If the M5 generation gets this GPU upgrade, which I don't see why not, then the era of viable local LLM inferencing is upon us.
That's the most exciting thing from this Apple's event in my opinion.
PS. I also like the idea of the ultra thin iPhone Air, the 2x better noise cancellation and live translation of Airpods 3, high blood pressure detection of the new Watch, and the bold sexy orange color of the iPhone 17 Pro. Overall, this is as good as it gets for incremental updates in Apple's ecosystem in a while.