A Library in New Zealand Replaces Dewey with System Rooted in Māori Tradition
38 comments
·May 29, 2025PostOnce
I believe this is cut from whole cloth and has no historical basis in matauranga Māori. It's worth noting that Māori did not have writing, and that whatever this classification system is, it's not Māori per se, it's just Māori-themed.
They did have forms of record keeping aids like rakau whakapapa / genealogy sticks, but no meaningful information classification system in the absence of writing.
I feel like I'm being lied to or gaslit or something when this is claimed to be traditional.
gnat
The librarian and the article cited don’t claim that the book classification system is the traditional book classification system of Māori. You are reacting to a claim of your own creation.
Each god has a bunch of different associations/responsibilities in traditional Māori culture. Applying those to book classification is the novelty, which they claim as novel and are proud of having created.
helpfulContrib
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sandworm101
>> It's worth noting that Māori did not have writing
Note the past tense. They did not have writing. They now do read and write in multiple languages. Native/aboriginal groups are not locked into what they once were. I see no reason why "maori-themed" can refer to more recent developments within that culture.
phyalow
Except Mātauranga by definition refers to “TRADITIONAL” knowledge.
And as OP points out this isnt it.
I too feel gaslit respectfully, reading your reply and the article.
damagednoob
I think the thrust of the point is that it's not 'traditional'.
relaxing
How is it not traditional?
relaxing
> They did have forms of record keeping aids like rakau whakapapa / genealogy sticks, but no meaningful information classification system in the absence of writing.
They had oral tradition, and it is extremely meaningful.
(To clarify, an information classification system can be implemented through oral communication.)
like_any_other
The poster explicitly said "information classification system". What you said is correct, but does not contradict the parent post.
efitz
This seems like a good way to ensure that Māori literature doesn’t ever get discovered unless someone is specifically only looking for Māori literature. Ironically using such a system in a library may contribute to its extinction.
Libraries are not just repositories of knowledge; they are discovery mechanisms. Putting a tiny fraction of your knowledge under a different discovery mechanism makes it only worthwhile for people and tools already targeting that specific niche, to put in the effort to figuring out how to discover new content there.
amiga386
Recall the classic essay, Ontology is Overrated - https://web.archive.org/web/20191117161738/http://shirky.com...
Book classification systems take on the the shape of the books being collected, and the books collected have the shape of the curator, who typically has the shape of the society they live in.
It's quite conciveable that any one classification system, designed for one person's idea of "all knowledge", massively biased to knowledge they and their society hold dear, is terrible for cataloguing another society's or sub-group's knowledge. The classic examples given in the essay include the first top-level category in the Soviet library system:
A: Marxism-Leninism
A1: Classic works of Marxism-Leninism
A3: Life and work of C.Marx, F.Engels, V.I.Lenin
A5: Marxism-Leninism Philosophy
A6: Marxist-Leninist Political Economics
A7/8: Scientific Communism
200 Religion
210 Natural theology
220 Bible
230 Christian theology
240 Christian moral & devotional theology
250 Christian orders & local church
260 Christian social theology
270 Christian church history
280 Christian sects & denominations
290 Other religions
GUESS THE PREDOMINANT FAITH IN THE SOCIETY WHERE THE DEWEY DECIMAL SYSTEM WAS INVENTED.
Ultimately, the essay rejects singular classification altogether. The only reason it exists is because bookshelves are linear, and you want to put like books with like. That's it, that's all. And you have to squint a lot, because many books don't kindly stick to a single topic.
So, whatever classification system these Kiwi libraries make up, don't worry about it, it'll be just as bullshit as the Dewey Decimal System, but it'll be better-shaped for the books it's classifying, and it'll be useful as an overview of the collection, and a way to discover and explore it. A more helpful index would use tagging, and an even more helpful index would be a full-text search engine.
Daub
You make a very good point, and provide an excellent reference.
It is in human nature to classify, and that is doubly true for an academic. Simply put, without a classification system we can’t point at a thing and say it is different to another thing. Neither can we say that one of those things is greater than the other.
I use libraries a lot and I have been reasonably satisfied with how the Dewey system seems to support common sense differences between ‘things’. Every now and then this common sense fails, but that is the nature of any hermetic system.
suddenlybananas
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tomhow
Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.
Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
Please don't fulminate.
Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes.
Please don't post shallow dismissals...
Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.
suddenlybananas
I'm not being snarky, I just think this kind of thing fetishises indigenous groups as having some kind of deep wisdom on the basis of their ethnicity.
tomhow
Sure, but we need you, like everyone here, to observe the guidelines, and take care to express your thoughts with kindness and sensitivity. We know sometimes it's hard to know how your words end up coming across to others, but in this case the comment crossed into the kind of territory we're trying to avoid on HN.
petesergeant
They’re using it to classify Māori literature, rather than books on physics. Seems reasonable?
lupusreal
The whole library should stick to one system, splitting the collection in two and using two separate organizational schemes is going to make a mess. What even qualifies as "Māori literature" anyway? That wouldn't be an important question if not for the split system, but now books have to be discretely classified as one or the other. Is the classification based on the ancestry of the author, and if so, how are mixed ancestries handled? If it's based on subject, then how do you classify a book which is about the history of New Zealand generally with some percentage of it covering Māori history? What percentage is the cutoff? If all the books are organized under one scheme then these shades of gray aren't a real problem, but now they have to pick which system to put a book under, and people looking for those books have to guess how they were classified.
At least the whole system is probably digitized so there is that at least. But insofar as that solves the lookup problem, so also should it make the entire exercise of splitting the collection in two a useless waste of time anyway.
b59831
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lmpdev
Really disappointingly sour responses from HN ITT
This is a tiny and temporary library in Wellington set up while the main library gets upgraded to deal with the city’s risk of earthquakes
It’s about the size of a house, with only ~20,000 books.
What gives you the right to boo and hiss at something across the world to you? In a culture you’re unfamiliar with. This is a tiny, community focused library, modifying a single section’s ordering and labelling of books.
Why does that offend you?
dazzawazza
For context: There are three root comments and six comments in total right now. All seem reasonable.
bowsamic
“ This stuff is such Noble Savage nonsense.” is not reasonable
EDIT do the down voters wish to explain themselves?
aydyn
Calling this "noble savage" and stereotyping is very reasonable (also known as true).
Its hilarious that the most succinct and useful summary gets flagged and hidden. Thats the smoothness of HN some times.
relaxing
They feel threatened by a non-western ontology that prioritizes different methods of information storage and transmission, ones that seem incompatible with their own tradition of the computer database.
To the poster below: The knowledge and system of connections inside that knowledge, is traditional, and that tradition is carried forward into modern domain. Does that make sense?
You should examine why you feel so quick to dismiss something as nonsense, especially when it seems to have been implemented successfully to the benefit of its users who do understand the system.
You seem to be imagining something (the burning of libraries as the entire nation is forced to throw out Dewey?) that has no basis in reality.
You clearly don’t understand what’s been implemented here, or library science in general, as your assertions are nonsense.
GrayShade
> Bridget hopes it will be adopted permanently, not just at Te Awe, but right across Wellington.
Is it really tiny and temporary, then?
lupusreal
> What gives you the right to boo and hiss at something across the world to you?
You can't be serious. Commenting on anything is a basic human right.
relaxing
It’s a figure of speech.
Edit, since apparently that was confusing: it’s an idiom which implies not that you lack the legal right to comment, but that you’re being an asshole by commenting in this manner.
lupusreal
> you’re being an asshole
You're the one name calling.
bowsamic
What makes you think that?
phyalow
Honestly, many New Zealand’ers (especially the inner city Wellington/Auckland public service class) have a major problem with native cultural relations (bordering on obsequiousness) that is increasingly out of step with developed global practices.
It gives rise to the utter nonsense exemplified in this Article, which is pure virtue signalling.
I am a New Zealander, I have been lucky enough to spend a huge amount of time working overseas (in many different countries, settings and regions) as well as having attended foreign and (domestic NZ) universities. I have seen it all. Screeching about “booing and hissing” says more about you than the person you are replying to. Put up a coherent response rather than saying because someone isn't in a tiny community they cant have an opinion. That is just braindead behaviour.
helpfulContrib
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Non-paywall link: https://archive.is/PWMJS