University of Waterloo withholds coding contest results over suspected AI use
70 comments
·April 26, 2025methuselah_in
Well these kids who want to become coders and use ai even for competitions, i don't understand what they will achiev!
RainyDayTmrw
Take this article with a grain of salt. Much of its argument quotes from TurnItIn, which was already an unethical scourge in earlier days, and already ruined many students' lives with traditional information retrieval, but more recently pivoted to ruining students' lives with "AI" instead[1].
[1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/08/14/prove-f... (archived/paywall bypass) https://archive.is/BoVlG
vander_elst
Why isn't it possible to run these contexts in a computer room with no access to the Internet? This plus a minimal amount of supervision would remove cheating? Am I missing something? Maybe schools don't have a computer room these days?
tmyklebu
The second stage (on-site, ~20 competitors) is done like that.
The first stage (this one, with ballpark 10000 competitors) is distributed and done in very heterogeneous environments, and it relies on local high school teachers taking time out of their day to set up whatever's needed, proctor the contest, and grade the results.
Wowfunhappy
So the problem is that the teachers were dishonest or not proctoring well, right? It doesn't sound to me like AI was the problem per se. Before LLMs you could have had participants using Stack Overflow to cheat.
handoflixue
> Before LLMs you could have had participants using Stack Overflow to cheat.
"could have", yes, but mostly didn't until LLMs showed up.
The problem is that LLMs lower the bar to cheating: using Stack Overflow still requires a pretty solid knowledge of the domain (and in a professional coding context, usually wouldn't even count as cheating). The LLMs also let you do this much faster.
seanmcdirmid
You’d also have to make sure they were using clean computers without any local models installed, and coding models are pretty easy to run without high end GPUs.
I don’t know if I would consider this modern coding using modern coding tool chains anymore though. It might still be a nice competition to run, but it is increasingly displaced from what it means to be a professional programmer (I’ve stopped caring about these competition wins on resumes a long time ago).
RainyDayTmrw
Archived/paywall bypass: https://archive.is/ZEfI8
StefanBatory
"The decision to cancel the release of this year’s results will weigh most on Grade 12 students who won’t get a chance to do it again next year, Shin said. But he didn’t think the onus was on the university. “It’s obviously a cheater’s fault, right? They’re the ones who cheated. They’re the one to break the rules. It’s their fault morally and logically.”
... I guess so, but how it is fault of someone who did not cheat? They are lumped in together, like it's their fault too. Not that I don't get that, but still.
handoflixue
Collective Punishment is deeply unfair
winwang
I agree, it sucks to be lumped in. What's your proposed solution?
Jtsummers
For ACM and IEEE programming contests they used to be conducted "offline". Not sure how they're done these days, but participants would have a computer connected to a LAN and shared resources for themselves and their team (one or more computers depending on the particular format). Put students in a room with a disconnected computer and an IDE or a computer connected only to a LAN. Submissions can be handled either with a local contest server or sneaker net to the one networked computer managed by the proctor.
It's also possible to severely lock down the network connectivity of the computers so they cannot access the internet at large but only the contest servers during the competition if there is an online submission required.
null
StefanBatory
That's why I said it's not like I don't get it.
There's no solution at this point for this year.
gonzo41
Hand written coding. The wheel comes full circle.
tenpies
Just the participant, a tall deck of blank IBM punch cards, and a punch. None of that fancy punch card machinery either.
Return to tradition[1].
morkalork
Computers with no internet access and nothing but the compiler chain and text documentation installed. Coding like it's 1980s again!
tmpz22
It's a solved problem. Look at medical schools, we're not pumping out chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc.
Right now educational institutions are facing budget shortfalls and responding by expanding remote education opportunities while compromising the quality of education not just because of cheating but because often the content and social circumstances are inferior. We are making short term decisions as an easy-fix to budget issues that will have substantial long-term consequences.
The result is that the value of an American college degree is plummeting (ironically while costs still are increasing). This is part of the reason GenZ are starting to revolt against various institutions - they are the ones being screwed the most.
The right path forward is acknowledging this insanity in the budgeting process, employment process, and loan markets. We won't do that though because it means admitting how much has been fucked up - institutions will double down and triple down in the face of DOGE threats.
gpm
> The result is that the value of an American college degree is plummeting
This Canadian university run high school coding contest isn't part of an American college degree. In fact it has no relation to any of that description. It isn't American. It isn't relating to a college at all by the Canadian understanding of that word (we distinguish between college and university, and Waterloo is the latter). It isn't for university (or college) students or related to a university (or college) degree.
> Look at medical schools, we're not pumping out chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc.
Extracurricular contests for high school students do not have the same funding or standards as medical exams to become a doctor for obvious reasons (in Canada, where I participated in these, but presumably anywhere).
vunderba
> chatgpt doctors because we have actual in-person test proctoring that includes checking biometrics, taking photographs of the individual for posterity, oral examinations, etc
Yep. Related, but the software engineering industry did actually have (for a brief time) a PE Exam but it was sadly discontinued.
https://ncees.org/ncees-discontinuing-pe-software-engineerin...
There's still a PE Electrical and Computer: Computer Engineering one but its definitely more focused on hardware.
_aavaa_
> Look at medical schools
Medical schools don’t take in 18 year olds in North America. They can have more in depth entrance exams since the people come in are more mature.
> This is the reason GenZ
Or perhaps it may be the misinformation and rhetoric being used to inflame tried and true anti-intellectual sentiments.
EA-3167
Sue the university on the grounds that this was a reasonably foreseeable event with proven solutions, i.e. properly proctored, in-person testing. "We're too cheap to do it" isn't an excuse.
vlovich123
The competitions are very useful both in terms of providing students the ability to demonstrate ability that isn't visible within a school curriculum (these students are way more advanced) and motivating the students with something to work towards & train on.
I have done this competition (I think) and what your suggesting just is not reasonable. This is a distributed competition administered locally on a volunteer basis. This isn't some formalized test & trying to get Waterloo to pay for all the local proctors would result in this competition shutting down which would be net not good. I don't have insight into how the competition has changed in the 20 years since I took it so I don't know why they don't have local proctors or lost faith in them. Maybe COVID-era adaptations?
Honestly, I think the better solution is to adjust the difficulty to be AI-proof but it may be hard to do so at this level of academia.
gpm
What percentage of the $10 (CAD, tax free) entrance fee do you think the court should award in damages?
criddell
Allow the use of AIs.
mannykannot
They are the victims.
udev4096
[flagged]
StefanBatory
"Why are you so obsessed with suppressing the truth?"
What? What I said is that I feel for the innocent students there, not that there are no cheaters? Please, don't put words into my mouth that I have not said.
mkbelieve
[flagged]
Deukhoofd
It's far closer to "getting someone else to do your work for you" than it is to using tools. That's always been looked down on in competitions.
bslanej
Have you tried using code generated by an LLM? It rarely runs at all until you fix it yourself.
It reminds me of how ezines would publish source codes to run exploits with slight errors so script kiddies couldn’t run them if they didn’t know how to fix them.
nneonneo
We’re talking about coding competitions here. These models have been fed the entirety of ACM, SPOJ, LeetCode, and whatever other competitions they can get their hands on. They are good at constrained coding competition tasks, and certainly strong enough to place highly in a competition meant for high school students.
ToucanLoucan
> Have you tried using code generated by an LLM? It rarely runs at all until you fix it yourself.
In College Humor's Brennan's exasperated tone:
THEN WHAT ARE WE DOING!?
Like Jesus fuck. I feel insane. We scraped the internet, broke tons of trust in our community, fed tons of code we didn't ask for into an industrial shredder, and worked out nonsense generators that can make awful code that barely, and apparently sometimes just doesn't work, burning enough electricity to power several small countries in the process and lighting billions of dollars on fire.
What, and I can't stress this enough, the fuck are we doing anymore. I swear to God the entire valley needs to be pushed into the ocean and humanity will lurch forward 200 years.
anonymousab
It seems that these tests had a rule about not using generative AI from the start. So it would be more like someone entering a fingerpainting contest and using a paint brush.
EDIT: Oh, I misread, that was the USACO competition which had the explicit rule.
Jtsummers
> All other Internet use is forbidden. This includes email, chat, web search, code forums, and generative AI such as CoPilot or ChatGPT.
https://cccgrader.com/rules.pdf
It was against the rules.
vunderba
No. The better analogy would be if you placed a hidden outline of the drawing in advance and traced over it during the "competition".
null
titaphraz
No. The guy showed up in Bows & Arrows contest with M1 Abrams.
Legend2440
Bigger question: Why are universities running bow & arrow contests in a world full of M1 tanks?
yjftsjthsd-h
Bow & Arrows are still in the literal Olympics; there is clearly appetite for seeing what humans can do with less powerful tools. Actually the fact that there are races on foot, bike, and car is probably an interesting analogy; I for one would be a fan of having a spread of contests from "you may use only pen and paper" to "literally any tool you can use is fair game".
add-sub-mul-div
The former is a measure of a real skill. I could prompt my sister about how to drive a car but they wouldn't let me send her on a driving test and then give me a license.
ToucanLoucan
I am genuinely curious why people like this are still making this argument long past the point where anyone who is even slightly informed realizes it's garbage.
This is some "the earth is flat" shit in 2025.
timewizard
It's like entering an art contest using a collection of stencils created by other people and used without attribution or credit.
So, really, they're screwing over more than two groups of people at the same time. I guess that is some kind of progress.
ribcage
[dead]
This really is quite sad.
The first stage of the CCC is written in pretty heterogeneous conditions. There are several thousand competitors across the world. Students use a language of their choice and their work is graded by their teacher against a rubric sent out by the contest organisers. I recall that the teacher has to send the work to Waterloo, postmarked within a couple of days after the contest.
Sometime in the summer, the University of Waterloo then flies out and puts up the top 15 or 20 students in that more informal contest to compete in what was the "CCC Stage 2" and is now the "Canadian Computing Olympiad." This second contest is done under more controlled conditions and its results largely determine which four students will represent Canada at the International Olympiad in Informatics.
The first stage has always relied on teachers' honesty. The contest organisers mail contest packets to teachers in advance of the contest. Teachers have some time between contest day and when the results need to be mailed back to Waterloo. Students are comparing notes and discussing the contest immediately after the contest.
Nonetheless, in my experience (more than 15 years ago), all or almost all of the students who make it to the second stage deserved to be there. I hope that continues to be true.