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Australian who ordered radioactive materials walks away from court

deng

Good for him. This was an absolute ridiculous case. Lots of everyday items contain radioactive substances: old smoke detectors, uranium glass, old watches with radium dials, anti-static brushes, the list goes on and on. As a side note: coal power plants put quite a bit of radiation into the environment (technically 100x more than nuclear plants, if you sidestep the issue of waste), because coal contains Uranium and Thorium.

The amounts of Pu that were imported were not only minuscule, but also embedded in acrylic for display. As an alpha radiator, this is 100% safe to have and put on a shelf. You would have to completely dismantle it, crush the few μg of Pu into dust and then inhale it to be dangerous to your health.

I understand that people are afraid of radiation. I am too. However, it is important to know that radiation is everywhere all the time, and it is always about the dose. At the same time, we allow for instance cars to pollute the environment with toxic particulates that lead to many cancers, and somehow we accept this as unavoidable. But I digress...

For those interested, here's a video from "Explosions and Fire" on this issue, a channel I highly recommend anyway, this guy is hilarious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0JGsSxBd2I

thoroughburro

> if you sidestep the issue of waste

If you do that, just sidestep the elephant, then nuclear is very attractive indeed!

fsmv

The waste isn't even that bad. There's not that much of it and we have extremely safe storage solutions. We way over engineered the safety by orders of magnitude. Nuclear waste storage facilities can take a direct missile hit and still be safe.

deng

Reality likes to have a word with you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asse_II_mine

ashoeafoot

Dont forget cobblestone in regions with high natural radioactive materials. If they mine for uranium in the rocks the rocks used to pave the surface and build houses are going to be also mildly active .

ulf-77723

Most interesting for Australia and generally society is the fact that a judge has to associate the behavior of collecting different materials from the periodic table with mental health issues in order to not ridicule the current laws.

that_lurker

And because of that he most likely will have really hard time getting a job after this

theginger

Possibly although given the story about it could go the opposite way.

grumpy-de-sre

Pretty sure he won't be getting a license to drive a train anytime soon. Especially not with a recorded conviction.

jampekka

I find it a bit odd for press to name the person and discuss their health matters on top. Sounds like quite a punishment in itself getting branded like that.

In e.g. Finland names are not published by the press unless the crime is severe and there's a conviction or the person is already a public figure.

seb1204

Same in Germany.

Svip

I think most continental European countries do this. The publishing of names like this seem more like an Anglosphere thing. In Denmark, the press norm is usually first to publish names when they get a prison sentence of 2+ years.

jampekka

The 2+ years is the standard in Finland as well. Notably a lot heavier crime usually has to take place for such sentence than in US or even UK.

sunaookami

In Germany the full name is not published.

mytailorisrich

Trials are public. This is a feature. This means everything can be reported unless the court puts a ban on it. Note, too that the guy pleaded guilty in this case and I think it is right to publicise the court's reasons for the penalty, or lack thereof.

In the UK they release mugshots, full names, and approximate address in the media, after a guilt verdict. Names and approximate addresses are published before since trials are public.

Finland, Germany, France, etc. have gone to another extreme. In France they now even withhold the names of people arrested in the act of murder or terrorism because "people are presumed innocent" and "their privacy must be protected"... which is pushing it beyond sensible and common sense, and is fairly recent practice that seems to have spread from Germany.

Svip

Hard disagree. It's well known that people who are falsely accused of such crimes end up having to live with the damage to their reputation even after a court finds them innocent, because that's not the news story people remember. In such societies, one's life is effectively ruined the moment one is accused.

Innocent until proven guilty, and the same goes for the court of public opinion.

trallnag

Hard disagree. In Germany, usually even the names of fully convicted and sentenced criminals are not published. And this is wrong in my opinion.

mytailorisrich

There is a big difference between being accused and going to trial. I agree that identities should not be published based only on "accusations".

There is a big difference between being caught in the act and charged following an investigation.

Currently Europe is moving/has moved to an extreme position beyond common sense as it has done on several other issues based on "good intentions".

In some cases there is also a pressure to charge and go to trial just based on accusations (e.g. rape cases), which is another issue.

d1sxeyes

Even if you are arrested in the act of killing someone you may have some defence that means you are not committing murder (e.g. self-defence, diminished responsibility, I think France still has ‘crime in the heat of passion’ as a defence)

jampekka

Trials are public in Finland, Germany, France etc. In some very severe crimes the name of the suspect may be published. For publicly discussed crimes the names can be usually found in some crime related discussion forums.

People are presumed innocent and their privacy must be protected. The mugshot porn is not good for anybody or the society in general.

immibis

In Germany t's illegal to say negative things, or things that would make them look bad, about anyone, living or dead, in any context. Even Adolf Hitler (although that is not enforced).

aaron695

The internet has screw all that up.

The criminal justice system should be transparent. Anyone should be able to watch any proceedings. This fits with your requirements as long as people don't report it.

The Australia Federal Court live streams but it is illegal to yt-dlp / photograph the monitor etc - https://www.youtube.com/@FederalCourtAus/streams

You also need people before and after (if convicted) to know. For instance witnesses or if they too were victims of crime. This is the impossible problem.

It's not even the reporting, it's easy search, as old newspapers have been scanned I've seen a few family secrets (of people still alive) that I would never have known and never needed to know.

jampekka

The court proceedings and decisions are public and can be followed on site and the documents can be acquired by anyone. This is indeed important for transparency and accountability of the system.

However the proceedings aren't streamed and the documents aren't online. Some cases can be published online (e.g. supreme court ones) but with identifying information redacted. I think this is good.

The policy is voluntary by the press, not a law. Although in some cases publishing such information could be deemed violation of privacy if it's not deemed of public importance. And compiling databases of the personally identifying information could be illegal.

grumpy-de-sre

Even worse is that if you google the poor blokes name they had the paparazzi out taking courthouse photos.

The gutter press in Australia have a field day at peoples expense.

Plenty of precedent of throwing high profile court cases too (hard to find unbiased jurors etc). Lately there's been a number of important cases being declared mistrials.

shit_game

good. from what ive read/watched about this case, it was absurd and an absolute abuse of the systems in place in australia. the quantities and material properties of the elements in question should have never, ever resulted in the response or charges that occurred.

the explanation that "the judge concluded that Lidden had mental health issues and displayed no malicious intent" is absurd in its own right, even if it resulted in a favorable outcome. what a sad, offensively disparaging, and fucked up excuse from a government.

here is a (arugably biased) relevant video about the subject from an amateur australian chemist that covers this case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0JGsSxBd2I

otterley

> the quantities and material properties of the elements in question should have never, ever resulted in the response or charges that occurred.

This even though “The delivery of the materials – which included a quantity of plutonium, depleted uranium, lutetium, thorium and radium – led to a major hazmat incident in August 2023. The entire street that Lidden lived on was closed off and homes were evacuated” ?

It’s not like his activities had zero impact in his community. You don’t mess around with radioactive materials; even small amounts can be extremely hazardous to life and the environment. There’s a reason they’re not easy to obtain.

m4x

The article says “the quantities of material were so small they were safe to eat”

If that’s true, the overreaction and evacuation is higher risk than possession of the elements

You can’t blame Lidden for the overreaction of others

xvokcarts

> The article says “the quantities of material were so small they were safe to eat”

The question is did the authorities know that the materials were harmless in advance, or only after they acquired them?

IsTom

That was a severe overreaction by authorities after they knew he had it for months in trace amounts.

shit_game

What impact?

The impact of the Australian Border Force overreacting after they (seemingly deliberately) bungled the situation when they were first made aware of the situation?

None of the elements this man was in possession of were either in a quantity or quality to facilitate any kind of hazard to anyone. The response by government was unjustified, and should have ocurred before the materials ever reached the purchaser.

I urge you to learn about and understand the properties of radioactive materials before making judgement on this situation. The quantities and properties (particularly the encasing) of the materials in question largely render them inert. These specimens are not at all abnormal in the scope of element collection, and the response triggered by the ABF (complete evacuation of an entire street (note, not an entire radius???)) is unwarranted given the quantitites and properties of the elements (both pieces of information they knew beforehand).

nialv7

> amateur australian chemist

I mean, he has a PhD...

ggm

I believe the guy got worried he needed to tell his employer, the railway, that he was facing a prosecution. His solicitor advised him not to.

They stood him down and terminated him to minimise risk.

I hope he gets his job back.

bpiroman

Overreaction much? Should there be a ban on americium-241 in smoke detectors?

eesmith

The legislation doesn't include americium, and even if it did‚ I presume it will be imported under license.

https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A03417/latest/text says "Nuclear material means any source or any special fissionable material as defined in Article XX of the Statute." and Article XX only mentions uranium, plutonium, and thorium.

In any case, high-schooler David Hahn showed us what's possible with a bunch of smoke detectors, camping lantern mantels, and the like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn His lab became a Superfund site.

IsTom

In this kind of amounts it follows that import of coal should require this kind of license because of thorium content.

eesmith

I believe that is addressed in the sentence after the one I quoted.

"Nuclear material means any source or any special fissionable material as defined in Article XX of the Statute. The term source material shall not be interpreted as applying to ore or ore residue."

mvdtnz

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ggm

The amount is tokenistic and would not have caused dissent held by a school for teaching purposes. He is a good person and this is a stupid application of the law to no benefit.

Since it was imported through postal services and identified there were heaps of opportunities to avoid this.

This is the least worst outcome having had charges brought but it was an overreaction to bring charges.

kzrdude

He did something stupid and nobody got hurt. The law needs to be relatively forgiving in these circumstances. A culture that punishes people that we don't know harshly for mistakes is not a good society.

mvdtnz

The law has been forgiving. No one has been punished harshly. This is a good outcome.

dtech

The amount was so small it couldn't be used to cause harm

otterley

The article says it caused a serious hazmat situation and his neighborhood had to be evacuated.

cpach

Looks like he lost his job though?

mvdtnz

That's between him and his former employer. I'm only discussing the legal consequences.

mrkeen

Follow-up from:

'Naive' science fan faces jail for plutonium import

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43449645

leonewton253

When I read things like this it makes Australia look like a penal colony.

seb1204

So what about the company selling the restricted material to him? Or the company doing the importing are they also reprimanded in some form?

feraloink

Not sure who is responsible for confirming whether he had a permit: oversees seller or shipping company, or customs/import upon receipt in Australia.

Guardian article says, "he ordered the items from a US-based science website and they were delivered to his parents’ home.... Nuclear materials can be imported legally by contacting the Australian Safeguards and Non-Proliferation Office for a permit first."

So maybe all of this fuss was due to not having applied and received a permit?

feraloink

Woah, this doesn't sound like over-reaction but the reporting doesn't give enough details to know:

>While his actions were criminal, the judge concluded that Lidden had mental health issues and displayed no malicious intent.... The delivery of the materials – which included a quantity of plutonium, depleted uranium, lutetium, thorium and radium...

Seems weird that the judge said Lidden had mental health "issues". Who knows how severe or debilitating the so-called mental health issues are? Not sure how the judge can make that decision on his own, about Lidden's mental health excusing him for doing something "criminal", although one wonders too how well the 1987 nuclear non-proliferation law was written, and if it was even applicable given small amounts Lidden possessed.

Key question is Lidden's purchase amounts of plutonium, depleted uranium, lutetium, thorium, and radium for his home periodic table display. (I totally understand the motivation for wanting to do that! I would love to have every element, even a tiny bit, for that reason too.)

Plutonium seems most concerning. It doesn't exist in nature but Pu-239 is the by-product of Uranium-238 used for fuel by nuclear reactors. (Not certain about isotype numbers.) Lidden bought depleted uranium, so that's more okay... I guess. (Don't know what its half life is even after "depletion".) Pu-239 and Pu-240 half-lives are thousands of years. Due to the radioactive alpha decay of plutonium, it is warm to the touch!

I wonder if he even had real plutonium, because even the non-weapons grade costs at least US$4,000 per gram.

Final thought: Chemical toxicity of (undepleted) uranium U-238 is comparable to its radioactive toxicity. Chemical toxicity of plutonium Pu-239, Pu-240 etc. is minor compared with its radioactive toxicity. By chemical toxicity, they're referring to the tendency for plutonium to spontaneously combust if exposed to moisture, or in hot humid weather. It can even catch on fire when submerged in water.

EDIT: Reduce verbiage

hnlmorg

You’re questions are already answered in the article:

1. The items were on display in this bedroom

2. The quantities were so small that they were deemed safe to eat.

This sounds like more of a case of the border force wanting to raise awareness rather than any actual danger being presented

feraloink

The article only said that his solicitor (lawyer?) described the quantities as being so small they were safe enough to eat.

I read some more about it (Guardian) https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/apr/11/scien... and entirely agree with you that the border force over-reacted, and could have spent the money and resources more effectively than by pursuing this.

Also, via Guardian, this attitude is demeaning and depressing:

>"At a sentence hearing in March, the lawyer described Lidden as a “science nerd” who committed the offences out of pure naivety. “It was a manifestation of self-soothing retreating into collection; it could have been anything but in this case he latched on to the collection of the periodic table,”

IsTom

Plutonium was in form of an old soviet smoke detector, containing micrograms of it. This case is whack.

feraloink

Thank you. I only read the second, more recent article, not realizing that their was a prior one.

Case seems ridiculous. Judge's ruling, despite no penalty, is embarrassing because he doesn't seem to understand the lack of danger of such small amounts, AND made gratuitous public statement about Lidden's mental health.

kweks

"Safe enough to swallow" seems like a scary oversimplification for alpha-emitting substances ?

atemerev

Depends on intensity. Microgram quantities of plutonium should be generally safe (unlike, say, microgram quantities of polonium).

Not all alpha emitters are created the same.

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