Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.
193 comments
·April 3, 2025murphyslab
neom
Yeah I run a startup accelerator out of the back of a Canadian law firm, saw a note from the GC of the firm reminding the lawyers not to do non-essential work cross border and to take firm issued blank laptops and phones across. Clearly being taken seriously.
xfp
Given all the remote work tech that the pandemic helped mature, the answer seems obvious.
salawat
Seems but isn't due to the way taxation/jurisdiction/licensure works. Where you are doing your work from and where the benefactor of that work are make a big difference. Example: Doctors can't telehealth over State lines. Lawyers likewise. Employers aren't supposed to allow migrant workers to work from across state lines from their address of record.
A great deal of draconian control is actually implemented through employment and licensure law, and as with most things in real life, come bundled with a surprising amount of detail. Part of why I've become particularly dissatisfied with the U.S. as of late, as so much of it is predicated on actually keeping you locked into one geographical location.
mlinhares
Doctors can definitely telehealth through state lines, they only need to get license approval from the specific states.
chneu
I believe it depends on the state. I'm not positive but my therapist friends can only operate in certain states remotely.
lurk2
> so much of it is predicated on actually keeping you locked ino one geographical location.
Most of the digital nomad hubs have the same laws with regards to worker protections and tax residency; they're just too poor to enforce them. The same is true of the workers themselves. In the 2010s I remember seeing a lot of guys bragging about having virtual assistants in the Philippines. This was probably illegal on both sides of the transaction the way that they had it set up, the issue is that the people working these jobs do not have the resources to pursue a case against a US-based employer; that's assuming they have the knowledge and motivation necessary to sue the employer in the first place. I'm not as libertarian as I once was, but these kinds of arrangements are a no-brainer; it's all of the upside of the free movement of labor with none of the downside of that labor being physically relocated.
Teever
I'm super interested to see what the next HN thread with that proberts lawyer dude is like.
I found the commentary in the last post from him to be pretty meagre, whether it was because people were afraid to talk about this kind of stuff or they just didn't know, I'm not sure, but it seems like reality is quickly setting in for a lot of people in the US.
Things are changing and they're changing fast.
You won't be able to ignore this forever.
MPSFounder
The most interesting thing I see is people overestimate how resilient the system is. Unfortunately, this is at the whim of a president, who with a majority in the court, dictates the law. With a ban or at his whim, even legal residents can find themselves out. We tend to think the system is resilient to this, but ultimately it really isn't. Scholars cannot even agree on whether these tech workers are entitled to the amendments (since they are not citizens, despite living in the US). Much of this was eye opening for me, and is used by Rubio as a basis to deport the Korean girl and the Columbia guy (also a Harvard student as of yesterday). The law is unfortunately very vague and thus open to interpretation (which is ultimately subject to the commander in chief, the current clown)
nxhxgs
Its not like immigrants have had wonderful, controllable and predictable paths to residency in the past. For those who arent Einstein or belong to the over rated HN crowd, the system has always be exploitative. Anyone who isnt born rich and has been through the process has had to live with constant fear, doubt and uncertainty.
tgma
+1. This.
As an alien you would have generally been extra wary of your behavior. Civil disobedience and dedication to political action is not what you should expect of an average alien.
Some natural born citizens seem to have been introduced to the immigrant experience yesterday.
FireBeyond
I emigrated to the US as a fiancée. It was not necessarily easy or cheap (I'm agreeing with you) and I came from a "low visa fraud risk country" (Australia). Some of the challenges faced:
It probably cost around $30,000 all up. Every visit to a consular office or USCIS cost about $100 in biometrics alone (each time). Fees for applying, fees for adjustments.
My partner and I had an issue where I was supporting her (she was in school). The system is not set up for that, and expects the US citizen to be financially supporting their prospective spouse. I realize that there are challenges around our situation in terms of providing a financial benefit to a USC that could be construed as paying for a visa.
I was interviewing for jobs in the US from Australia as my move date got closer (after the visa was approved). Siemens nearly torpedoed things when they wanted to start a H-1B or other visa app for me even after being repeatedly told I didn't need one.
My fiancees family ended up having to sponsor me, signing declarations of financial responsibility, that they could be made to repay any government benefit I claimed within the first 10 years of living here (tied to that previous issue).
Some of the evidentiary requirements (bona fide relationship) were reasonable and actually quite clever (separated, and asked questions like who usually does dishes, or takes out trash, and what day is trash day for that matter, and beyond) and others were onerous (I had to pay BoA an exorbitant amount to get all bank statements for 3 years, copied and notarized).
In the end, ironically we determined I would have been "adjusted" to a unconditional LPR more quickly, and more cheaply, if I had come here on a visa waiver, promising not to get married, and just got married and said "oops, my bad, can I be converted anyway?" than actually doing it the right way.
BrenBarn
> The law is unfortunately very vague and thus open to interpretation (which is ultimately subject to the commander in chief, the current clown)
That is it exactly. The US legal/governmental system is a house of cards that has been running for at least 150 years on a bunch of wink-wink-nudge-nudge assumptions that both sides were too scared to test or even acknowledge. An ounce of prevention might have been worth a pound of cure, but now we'll need the cure, and it's probably going to be painful.
tootie
This isn't unique to modern American history. Literally all of human civilization meets this criteria. It's all based on a collective acceptance of rules, titles, borders, property. All of which are completely imaginary.
jmye
> both sides were too scared to test or even acknowledge
I think that’s harsh. I think the folks in government generally believed that the opposition was there in good faith and with the intent of strengthening the nation, even if they disagreed on how.
I don’t think that’s the case any longer and institutions based on good faith don’t work when the group in power is willing to light everything on fire.
MPSFounder
The truth is much of it could have been prevented (court packing was one idea that might have been unpopular, but there are many other ideas that could have been acted upon). We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade. Had Ruth Ginsberg been pressured to retire after her numerous health issues, Roe v Wade would never have been overturned (it was a 1 vote swing). Had primaries occurred, I believe the current guy (a felon) would have lost. There were many mistakes, which had they been addressed through any action (literally anything), could most certainly have been prevented. And this time around, it seems actual executive orders are shaping a very different America (that will require generations to undo). Early this week, a college program I am involved in (for STEM high school students over the summer) was cut. It was heartbreaking getting an email inquiring on why it is no longer on our website. Also it is the same song (the guy had travel bans his first admin, and is doing it again in different forms and to a wider range of individuals. We had four years to make these things difficult, but we did nothing). Holding paddles at state of unions seems to be widely believed among Democratic leadership to be effective, and there lies the issue.
tomohelix
Wait until they declare nonresidents are not entitled to properties in the US and seize all bank accounts and 401k, USSR style.
The scariest thing, and most absurd to me, is that even though I made that joke just 1 minute ago, now that I think about it, it is not completely impossible in this current political climate...
I dread to think about what the US will be 10 years from now. Trump is not the problem. He is a solution, or claimed to be, to the ailments that plague the US. The people here want change, they know something is rotten but they don't even know what is the problem with so many lies and misdirection and days to days burdens they have to bear. So Trump become their cry for help. It is just sad and tragic. Truly something for the history book, if we ever get there.
HEmanZ
I don’t think your hypothetical is crazy at all. I learned this weekend that much of my close family, who were pretty normal conservatives just a couple of years ago, now believe that all legal and illegal immigrants have been let into the country by jws to eliminate the white race. And that’s not an exaggeration at all. Like I’m mincing words to make them look less bad.
My family is not the down and out, they never supported these things because they have financial stressors. If anything the economy of the last 20 years has been too good to them. They are relatively wealthy and have stable lives and good jobs. They listen to too many alt right podcasts and are too deep down the Facebook hole.
Two weeks ago I was relatively optimistic. Now I’m really scared, how do you cope with loved one’s who believe these things? We’re off to a really dark place.
tgma
There's a huge difference between not being able to buy properties and seizing them.
The former is already in place to some degree in various forms including anti-money-laundry and sanction-prevention pretexts: https://www.kvue.com/article/news/politics/texas-legislature...
The latter is far more overreach but US already practices Civil Asset Forfeiture in other contexts, even for US Citizens, nothing new.
smallmancontrov
Citizens aren't far off. I give it until election season.
JD Vance wrote a cover blurb for a book arguing to the MAGA base that all the milquetoast liberals they know are actually "secret communist revolutionaries" who must be "crushed" by any means necessary.
parineum
> who with a majority in the court...
There is a judicial conservative majority. That doesn't mean they are a Trumpian, Republican or even conservative rubber stamp.
The court has ruled against conservatives numerous times already.
watwut
They are openly enablers, twisting the rules for them whenever they can. Thomas is also quite corrupt. Kavanaugh is purely political advancing conservative project. Alito the same, with better excuses.
Slava_Propanei
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tgma
The system is actually quite resilient. What you are describing is a specific impact the system might have on someone's situation. That makes a specific situation non-resilient, not the system. Everyone in the whole world who is on a visa knows that is not the most resilient situation, by definition.
Also, it is well-settled that visa is a discretionary benefit. Green card is more nuanced, but still not a panacea. Some of the "scholars" that debate these things know full well what the case law is but they want to stir the pot in the media.
jasonjayr
Sure it's discretionary.
But to (a) Revoke it with no warning (b) Instantly making your presense illegal, and you a criminal, and due to your new criminal status(c) immediatly abducting you by masked, unidentified "officers" in an official capacity and sending you on a plane anywhere but here, seems to, I don't know? "stir the pot" as you say?
These revocations could be done far more graciously than they are. It certanly reveals how the people in charge feel about their fellow humans. It's being done this way NOT to be efficent. They're doing it to send a message.
"See how quickly we can disappear you for dissent."
MPSFounder
Except the people I cited were legal permanent residents and not "visitors" or "solely here as students". A legal permanent resident is by definition a national. In most forms, you will see US citizens/nationals refer to born or naturalized citizens AND legal residents. So your point is fabricated.
lurk2
> Things are changing and they're changing fast.
What has changed?
pacomerh
Immigration policies are way stricter now, and they're leaving people out. Also related, some countries are issuing warnings for people traveling to the US. https://travelnoire.com/europe-us-travel-advisory
lurk2
> Immigration policies are way stricter now
Do you have any evidence of that? Have there been changes in legislation, specific directives issued?
> some countries are issuing warnings for people traveling to the US
In the case of Germany, it was emphasized that the change was not a travel warning, but instead a travel advisory [0]. Here are a few advisories from Canada, accessed 2025-04-02:
Germany: Exercise a high degree of caution in Germany due to the threat of terrorism. https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/germany
France: Exercise a high degree of caution in France due to the elevated threat of terrorism. https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/france
Italy: Exercise a high degree of caution in Italy due to the threat of terrorism. https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/italy
The State Department has a similar advisory on traveling to the UK:
> Country Summary: Terrorist groups continue plotting possible attacks in the United Kingdom. Terrorists may attack with little or no warning, targeting tourist locations, transportation hubs, markets/shopping malls, local government facilities, hotels, clubs, restaurants, places of worship, parks, major sporting and cultural events, educational institutions, airports, and other public areas. There is also a risk of isolated violence by dissident groups in Northern Ireland, focused primarily on police and military targets.
I will look at anything specific you have on hand that you feel merits attention, but I know that in the case of the German advisory, it was just updated to reflect that possessing a visa was not a guarantee of entry. So far as I know this did not come about as a result of change in policy. While the Trump administration has done a lot of chest-thumping on immigration, I haven't seen any indication that these sorts of refusals and detentions are unprecedented; they just seem to be receiving more media attention. In this instance, there were three high profile cases of Germans being refused entry and / or detained, which resulted in the advisory.
[0]: https://www.newsweek.com/germany-issues-travel-warning-us-20... ("But they also stressed that this change does not count as an official travel warning.")
nice_byte
at this point, what's even the point of immigrating here? if you're still young and haven't rooted yourself to this place (no family / house / significant other), I'd advise to leave and look to build a life in a different country. the best years of your life would be better lived elsewhere.
pacomerh
Yes that's true, I really don't know what the endgame is for this new admin. Growing up south of the border we always knew the beauty of this country was richness in cultural diversity. It seems like we're going backwards now?.
jimmydoe
End game is to stay in power, to stay in power means to deliver your campaign promises to expel immigrants which is what trump is doing and, despite many here don’t like that, relatively well received by American public. https://www.axios.com/2025/03/31/trump-us-adults-approval-ra...
93po
There are still massive benefits to living and working in the US despite the fact that it's also uniquely problematic. Incomes for some/many areas of work are extremely high here compared to the rest of the world, and despite the narrative of corporate news that the world is literally on fire, the general day to day of most Americans is pretty unimpacted.
joshcsimmons
Strange - an unusual amount of comments flagged. Hacker News is becoming more like Reddit by the day it seems.
smt88
It's ironic that Silicon Valley's CEOs are now getting exactly what their candidate promised them.
Where is the pushback against this from Musk and Ellison?
jimmydoe
Tech right was in conflict with MAGA on H1B a few months ago, and they lost.
Vance recently tried to put a truce between them https://www.politico.com/newsletters/digital-future-daily/20...
justin66
There is no diplomatic situation that cannot be made at least a little worse by the presence of JD Vance.
toomuchtodo
“For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law.”
Yeul
Funny thing is that getting a visa for China is now more seemless than it has ever been and they love my euros.
lurk2
China detained two Canadians for almost three years in retaliation for Canada cooperating on a US warrant for Meng Wanzhou. They can make you disappear in the way that people in this thread are pretending the Americans can. It is not safe to travel there.
ok_dad
You mean like how the CIA flew around doing “extraordinary rendition” during the turn of the millennium? Yea, that’s a shitty thing to do, hopefully all the people of the world can get better governments.
ffsm8
> pretending the Americans can
Pretending?
Dude, there are super public and well covered cases were the US did not only that but even worse, i.e. MEGAs illegal CEO abduction from their home soil in the 2010s for a particularly egregious example
lurk2
> MEGAs illegal CEO abduction from their home soil in the 2010s for a particularly egregious example
I’m assuming you’re referring to Kim Dotcom since I can’t find any other reference to what you are describing. Kim was not abducted; he was arrested in by New Zealand police in 2012, and has since been fighting in court to avoid extradition to the United States. There was nothing illegal about this; it all went through the court system.
Taniwha
Yup, visa condition for me to China are the same as to the US and they aren't likely to search my phone (I've crossed that border dozens of times with barely a hiccup, just a smile)
jimmydoe
And it’s safer on the street in China than in the us.
zombiwoof
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lazyasciiart
There is an enormous and visible difference between “not getting a visa” and “getting a visa, relying on it, moving to a new country, and being told that the legal system of the new country has turned to slime and your visa may or may not still be valid”. I’d be interested in hearing about when other countries have done that, if you know of any.
addicted
That’s fine. All those H1Bs will go back to their home countries, work for the same companies at a fraction of the salary and instead of paying taxes and rent and other expenses in the US will pay in their home countries.
And when they are laid off, or drop off to start their own companies, those companies will be based in their home countries instead of in the U.S.
I think this is a great and moral plan to reverse the brain drain the U.S. has been benefiting from at the expense of other countries for decades.
OccamsMirror
As an Australian I'm pretty keen to start seeing a higher tier of people choosing Australia over the US to move to now.
kragen
Australia is not famous for openness to immigration; people overseas are more likely to know about Pauline Hanson and the prison camps in Nauru.
startupsfail
The other countries could have tried less corruption and fewer palaces and yachts for their nobility. And a few more opportunities to earn a decent lifestyle with nothing, but a brain and hard work.
occz
No countries readily jail people who have the legal right to enter that country as the U.S is currently doing, but if you wish, a reciprocal policy for U.S citizens traveling abroad can certainly be arranged.
HEmanZ
Sure they do. In places like, Russia.
You know, places to look up to.
toast0
Having a visa doesn't give you the right to enter. I don't think permanent residency does either.
It's always at the discretion of the immigration officer and there's no recourse if they don't let you in.
Personally, I don't think it's generally reasonable to jail at entry when denying entry is an option. The case where the UK tourist was denied entry to Canada from the US and then was jailed in the US is a case where denying entry isn't really possible, because if neither side of a land border will allow entry, what do uou do... but then it shouldn't have taken more than a couple days to make arrangements for her to fly home on her own dime.
wetpaws
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trashchomper
"They all do". Just categorically not true but ok buddy
null
trchek
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xqcgrek2
[flagged]
viraptor
It's not "don't leave", but "don't put yourself in a situation there you have to reenter". It's in neither party's interest to be in that situation.
toomuchtodo
What happens if and when ICE starts rounding visa holders up to deport? No snark intended, this is a genuine question based on all available evidence. I don’t endorse such action at all, but we are existing in exceptional times and the discussion is important. “If you stay, what are you getting yourself into?” is a serious question to ask and to manage the risk around.
ok_dad
> What happens if and when ICE starts rounding visa holders up to deport?
Read the news, it's already happening. One video I saw showed a woman (a PhD student in a legal visa) being surrounded by plainclothes officers with neck gaiters over their faces and they took her away in an unmarked car. Her family hired a lawyer who still hasn't contacted her though they claim she's in a specific facility in Mississippi. Her crime? Speaking out against Israel. If the first amendment is dead, hopefully the second can save us.
https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-unive...
Taniwha
At the moment it looks like they are snatching people off the street, they're already rounding up people to deport, no "your visa has been cancelled, you have 30 days to leave" more people in masks snatching you off the street
zombiwoof
All somebody needs to do in this climate is call ICE, say their coworker sympathizes with Hamas. They overheard them at work.
Watch how fast the law doesn’t protect them
Unless they work for Elon
throwaway5752
Regardless of your opinions of guest worker visas, they are here voluntarily on legal visas. The immigration lawyers at these companies are advising them they may not be allowed to reenter, for no cause.
It is a disgrace to the honor of America.
SanjayMehta
At two different US companies I had to attend training led by a lawyer on how to file H1b and L1 applications, how to write recruitment ads and coaching visa applicants for their interviews.
Both training programmes were surprisingly similar, even two years apart.
No notes were allowed. No slides.
Even the call for attendance was verbal and in person.
This is a US corporation problem, not the US government’s.
lazyasciiart
The government wrote the rules those classes are teaching you to meet.
zombiwoof
[flagged]
hello_computer
[flagged]
betaby
> legal visas
US government often disagrees.
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/indian-corporation-pays-re...
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/indian-management-consulti...
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdtx/pr/houston-consulting-comp...
compiler-guy
No one is claiming that everyone is on a legal visa or that companies don’t break the law.
The argument is that reentry, even if you are legal right now, might be denied for reasons which wouldn’t have gotten you even a sideways look six months ago. Which surely you don’t disagree?
BuckRogers
[flagged]
Calavar
> Brighter days ahead once again for the descendants of those that settled, built, and fought for this country.
A very 1920s vibe in the 2020s, which makes me sad that we've slid this far back, that so many Americans no longer believe that the melting pot is a good idea even in theory.
neverbehind
The melting pot idea clearly benefits some groups more than others. It should come as no surprise when the groups that it does not benefit start questioning the origin of that idea and who is pushing it in the first place.
BuckRogers
Who said anything about a melting pot? I'm not sure why you'd derail a comment that speaks to Americans that have been here for a hundred+ years, vs newcomers. There's nothing anti-melting pot about it. It reads that your true intentions are something else. Of course it's wrong to keep pummeling people who are already here with millions of new people with zero protectionism whatsoever. If you think black, hispanic, asian, and white people alike haven't been here for 100+ years and we all deserve better than we've received... well, you just don't know much about this country. And I'm glad you're tormented due to that ignorance.
john_texas
[flagged]
01HNNWZ0MV43FF
You should be better than this
occz
Fear not, once Trump is done, the U.S will have lost its position as a superpower and along with it all of its wealth and influence.
BuckRogers
False. But what would it matter if the people have not prospered alongside. I am not the USA. I am a person who writes software and likely has made half of what I would from a lot of hard work, due to competition that other countries have done a better job of keeping out for their own people.
And now with AI eliminating most programming jobs, which will happen by the way, that downward pressure on wages may mean I'm finishing up my career starting over in a new one within 5 years.
Pure stolen wealth, essentially even stolen lives from hard working Americans. We are people who studied hard, we worked hard, we played by the rules. And our lives were stolen from us. Our retribution starts now.
b59831
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mach5
[flagged]
sjtgraham
[flagged]
simonw
H1B is a dual-intent visa, which means holders are allowed to pursue permanent residency (upgrading them to an immigrant by the US legal definition) by applying for a green card.
Most people use the term "immigrant" for people who have chosen to live in another country without considering the "non-immigrant" status of their visa.
parineum
Is there some rule that says other people aren't allowed to pursue a green card? That doesn't seem like a differentiator to me.
That's a real question, I have no idea how any of it really works in the practical sense.
simonw
Yeah, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent
> Persons with H-1B visas (for specialty workers and their spouses and minor children with H-4 visas), K visas (for fiancees or foreign spouses of US citizens and their minor children), L visas (for corporate transferees and their spouses and minor children), and V visas (spouses and minor children of lawful permanent residents) are permitted to have dual intent under the Immigration and Nationality Act.[1]
> Most other foreign visitors and workers, like those on H-2B worker, H-3 trainee/worker, B-1 business, B-2 tourist, Visa Waiver Program visitor, F-1 student, J-1 exchange visitor, M-1 student, journalism, and entertainer visas should not have immigrant intent. Such visa holders can be denied admission if the consular or port official reasonably believes that they have interest in permanently remaining in the United States (i.e., in pursuing a green card).
sashank_1509
Yes, there are visas Like L1 Visa where you can work in US but never apply for a Green Card, and this is considered a non immigrant visa while H1b is considered a dual intent visa. Which is why regularly people who come in on L1, separately participate in the H1b lottery!
wahnfrieden
TN can’t
It's what their lawyers are advising them.
The Globe and Mail had a piece on March 25th on the advice that lawyers were giving to their clients, often Canadians working on TN visas down south:
> York-based immigration law firm Dyer Harris LLP, which helps foreigners secure work visas in the U.S., sent an e-mail to their clients residing and working in the country to hold off on international travel altogether, unless in an emergency.
Lawyers advise Canadians working in U.S. to avoid travel amid border crackdown, The Globe and Mail, 2025-03-25. https://web.archive.org/web/20250325223021/https://www.thegl...