Tesla's team to suppress driving range complaints (2023)

Slightly more nuanced: the "range"/battery level listed constantly is always bunk. When I enter a destination the final battery level is very accurate. This counts in cold weather or hot, with terrain effects or not. Sometimes even weather. It's quite good and I imagine there's some data driven process from past performance of the vehicle.

So, if you plan to test drive a Tesla, evaluate its range this way. If you're curious for me the listed range is often around 300, and the effective drive range tends to be around 250 200, seldom less except in cold weather.

Getting only 30% of the advertised range would be very unlikely unless you always drive uphill and in the cold. I've had a Model 3 and a Model Y, and would get at least 80-85% of the advertised range in average California weather.

If the gradient is steep enough then you would not be recouping most of the energy going back downhill because your brakes will be burning off the energy. Uphill and downhills is a combination where the estimated range might be thrown off entirely, depending on situation.

Regardless, even with a small gradient, the kinetic energy can never need 100% converted back into stored energy into the battery. There will always be a loss.

> I have a model 3 (from 2023), that is rated 270 miles. I can get at max 120 miles, more like 90 miles from it. My drive to work involves going steeply uphill, not very cold. The only reason I don’t care is I have free office charging. If I didn’t I would be pissed by the range I observe.

Were you mislead about or unaware of the range claims when you bought the car?

I don't own an EV or have any real interest in them, but I know the range is highly dependent on driving conditions and automobile condition (often to a much greater degree than ICE vehicles) and I'd assumed that was made pretty clear in advertising materials and sales pitch. I could easily see unscrupulous companies and salesmen or just unaware 2nd hand buyers being caught out by the range claims though.

I have a model 3 from 2019 that is not quite as extreme, but gets similar issues. It should have 350 km of range. I see some people posting insane wh/km numbers, but I think I'm doing a pretty decent job (130-140 wh/km or ~225.31 wh/mile average outside of the winter); I barely get 270-280km, max.

The issue isn't the driving range, but rather the unexplained loss of range. I'm talking about losses of 7.5% if I leave it parked in front of my house for an hour or two. I have photos too; if you reach out to Tesla, they curtly tell me the battery is fine.

A vague "you need to keep your car plugged in" is frankly insane, what if I went on a 100km trip, left my car outside for an hour or two, and came back without enough range to go home? I've heard people say to disable the app on my phone, but that frankly seems like a Tesla problem, not a "me" problem.

I still enjoy driving the car. I just wouldn't trust it for long range driving. I probably will buy Hyundai or BYD (if Canada lets them in) next time.

what's the mileage like when you take into account the downhill return trip? Unless your commute is uphill both ways through the snow :)

Are you going from 100% battery down to like 10%?

My Polestar 2 range is not great in the cold and on hills, but the real gotcha is charging it to 80% and then plugging in around 30%. Using about 42 kW / 100 U.S. mile that means 50% of a roughly 75 kW battery only gives me 89 miles between charges. (But some of that is self imposed.)

Still 180 mile range would be well under the advertised 260.

Now if I use 100% and I get closer to 35 kW / 100 miles in the summer, the range is about 215 miles. Curious how much better it'll be in the summer though.

Take a picture of your energy screen and post it.

The article is talking not about the route planner, which I agree usually gives very accurate estimates for specific routes, but the advertised theoretical driving "EPA ranges", which are quite inflated.

However, from what I can tell, the EPA numbers from all manufacturers are quite unrealistic, because the methodology doesn't match real-world driving.

When you understand how the EPA actually test this, it makes sense. "Highway" isn't anything like what most people think it is. It's not cruising at 75mph with no traffic on a major interstate. It's more like busy country road driving.

> The "highway" program, on the other hand, is created to emulate rural and interstate freeway driving with a warmed-up engine, making no stops (both of which ensure maximum fuel economy). The vehicle is driven for 10 miles over a period of 12.5 minutes with an average speed of 48 mph and a top speed of 60 mph

Further, the force of drag grows exponentially with speed. Going 75mph on the interstate is massively less fuel efficient than 48mph.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-economy/...

I have an old toyota camry hybrid. The estimated range is calculated based on the trip mpg, and as such is accurate when I'm going like a speed demon or cruising along at 90kph.

Displaying a marketing number on the dash is inexcusable, regardless of how fast or slow drivers are going.

Makes me wonder how it is stated. Normal driving conditions for many (most?) drivers is faster than the posted speed limit.

Speeding is a given, even a necessity on most US highways. Everyone is speeding by 10 maybe even 15 mph as a baseline.

Yes every person who doesn't have your exact experience is both lying and morally bad.

How can Tesla advertise a “more accurate” number if they are required by regulation to use EPA estimate?

EPA range estimates being inaccurate is a real problem. They do not, and are not designed to, give actual expected range. It’s meant to be an “average” of “mixed” driving.

Take latest Model Y as example. If you compare EPA range vs WLTP (commonly used in EU)

327mi EPA est. (526km) US version (long range) / 586km WLTP est. (364mi) EU version (long range)

The WLTP is “average” as well, so which of these is more accurate?

This problem is not unique to Teslas, and actually not unique to EVs either. It’s just more noticeable, as ICE vehicles usually advertise MPG and tank size, not total range. So EVs suffer from their own advertisement highlighting numbers that will never be accurate.

You can review claims from some YTers here[0]. But I've copied the params and results over for the Model 3. They also have tons of other cars tested in similar params[1].

  Testing procedure:  
  - Tire pressure set to manufacturer recommendation   
  - DCFC to 100% SoC to ensure optimal battery temperature   
  - Most energy efficient drive setting   
  - Climate control set between 68-72 on most eco-friendly mode that still allows A/C, on lowest auto fan setting   
  - 70 mph constant GPS-verified speed with gentle acceleration to reach speed  
  - Avoid drafting trucks or other vehicles   
  - Stay on highway at 70 mph constant for as long as possible, until power is cut or low single digit SoC  
  - Use frontage roads at low SoC, try to maintain 55+ mph until stated remaining range depleted  
  - Arrive at charger just as car crosses 0-1 miles remaining and 0% SoC  
  Route:  
  - Drive from Wellington, CO up I-25 to Cheyenne, WY. Then east on I-80 into Nebraska   
  - Route ensures minimal elevation impact, and any wind is documented. Wind typically blows easterly, so the long stretch along I-80 allows for headwind to become tailwind at turnaround.  


 Tesla Model 3 Performance:   
    EPA: 303 mi  
    Actual: 288 mi / 265 Wh/mi  
   
 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD Panasonic:   
    EPA: 341  mi  
    Actual: 365 mi / 215 Wh/mi  
   
 Tesla Model 3 SR RWD LFP:  
    EPA: 272 mi  
    Actual: 277 mi / 213 Wh/mi  
   
 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD LG:   
    EPA: 305 mi  
    Actual: 308 mi / 249 Wh/mi  
   
 Tesla Model 3 LR RWD:   
    EPA: 363 mi  
    Actual: 386 mi / 206 Wh/mi  

[1]: https://outofspecstudios.com/70-mph-range

> in normal weather, normal driving conditions without the AC/heater on, on a straight road with no elevation gain.

Another aspect of this debate from my own experience, Tesla's range estimates from the navigation system are much more accurate (which should be obvious because otherwise people would constantly get stranded when taking a road trip). Tesla would probably argue that is because all those factors you listed that impact range stop being assumptions when a defined time and route are known. But it is still no excuse for assuming the absolute best case scenario when defining the range used in marketing or displayed on the equivalent of the car's fuel gauge. If anything, the accuracy of those navigation estimates makes the other inaccuracies seem even more nefarious.

No different than fuel range numbers (fuel tank capacity x mpg) for ICE vehicles. They are under perfect conditions in a lab with no accessories. It might not be realistic but it’s absolutely the best way to compare it to other vehicles.

Subtracting the politics but including the actual range, do you regret the purchase?

They are among the best in class when it comes efficiency so I don't understand where they are falling short. I've rented EquinoxEV(2024,Model 3(2022), Mach-E(2021 non heat pump) and Bolt EV(2023) for roadtrips and it seemed as if all except Mach-E were pretty good on their estimates. I guess I need to measure miles very closely. Maybe they were all just falling short and I didn't realize. :/

I know some of the lithium-sodium batteries behave differently now but my Model Y yells at me whenever I charge above 80% or go below 20%, saying it's bad for the battery. Not exactly inspiring if it causes more wear unless you sacrifice 40% of the range.

I think that's pretty fair on the side of the EPA, it's good for drivers to keep the estimate conservative. Imagine if the difference between "ideal" driving and "everyday" driving was like half. Someone who plans a road trip with the advertised range in mind is probably gonna have a bad day.

And because it's bad for batteries to be fully charged/discharged they should probably take that into consideration as well since "you could go further if you damage your car" isn't exactly a normal driving scenario.

> Use our useful tool to get an estimated range based on factors such as your driving style, battery size and Volkswagen electric vehicle model.

That’s such a VW sentence.

Considering this, plus the fact that it's just annoying, it's strange that they don't let you turn the heated steering wheel or seat on without turning the heater on. It's literally not permitted. I have to work around it by setting the fan to 1 manually every time.

The article focuses on the censorship by "free speech" champions.

Does the heater really use all that much energy? A home space heater is something on the order of 1 kW, which is a fraction of a percent of what is needed to move the car.

I'm wondering, why the battery coolers are so sophisticated but never heat the cabin.

If I’m not mistaken some or all also have battery heaters that consume a lot of energy.