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Take the pedals off the bike

Take the pedals off the bike

459 comments

·January 14, 2025

sofayam

This guy was not really trying to explain to hacker parents how they should teach their kids to ride a bike. As has has been adequately demonstrated in the comments they already know aaaaaaaall about that. His actual point, which seems to have whooshed past most people’s heads, is much more interesting: can you learn a thing more effectively by first simplifying that thing so radically that a seasoned user would find it useless? Also not exactly a totally new idea but, depending on context, just counterintuitive enough that you may miss it.

adamcharnock

I would love to see this approach in language learning, which I am fairly bad at. I'm very much driven by results rather than accuracy, and so often a teacher will correct me on the finer points of the language I'm using and I'll either no idea what they are talking about, or know that I am certainly not going to remember that detail. In either case I find it very demoralising.

If there was a "Learn to speak German like a 5 year old" course then I would love that. Give me something usable to motivate me further, then I can come back for more complexity when I actually want and need it.

But isn't this the case for all language courses? They start you slow and build up? I feel like it isn't, although perhaps it is just the courses I have seen. It seems to me that the people who teach languages generally really like languages, so they understandably revel in the details. I, however, do not (although I wish I did).

I realise now this is a bit of a rant. Apologies!

cjohnson318

I learned Spanish at a two year old level by focusing only on the top 24 verbs, in all (major) tenses first. So, ir, ser, estar, tener, haber, hacer, poner, poder, venir, ver, decir, dar, etc., in present, preterite, imperfect, future, conditional, subjunctive, progressives, and perfects.

Then I learned about 2000 nouns from several lists. Then I learned some common "weird" constructions like darse cuenta, and hace falta.

Now I can read paperbacks on the plane without a dictionary, and follow the plot. I can communicate simply, and send pretty good texts. I have a lot of trouble with TV and radio, but it's progress. This took 2 years with mainly self study and Duolingo for accountability. I don't think an app alone would do the trick.

Alex-Programs

> Learn to speak German like a 5 year old

This is pretty much the methodology behind "comprehensible input", where you consume lots of content that you can just about understand and "let your brain figure it out".

There's quite a lot along these lines. LingQ helps you learn as you read books, and I built https://nuenki.app, which gives you constant comprehensible input as you browse the web.

I also really like Language Transfer, which isn't really a comprehensible input course, but tries to draw parallels to English and talks through the etymology a little. The approach appeals to me.

marssaxman

Thanks - I'll give your plugin a try.

Along similar lines, I subscribed to r/nederlands, so that random reddit scrolling features intermittent Dutch practice. I figure that this sort of everyday exposure will help me build a subconscious, pattern-driven sense of grammar and word usage.

patapong

I think this is a brilliant idea, congrats on building it! Will try it out as well. I think some passive exposure to dutch is exactly what I need.

kjellsbells

There are resources available for children, eg Muzzy is an animated immersion program for 5 year olds that (if you can bear the cheesy animation) might work. (In the US, available on Kanopy with a public library card.) And if you are good at searching you might also find resources that educators use for teaching recently immigrated children, although that implicitly requires a teacher/partner to be working with you.

Everyone learns languages in a different way. There are some people who like to be told what the basic rules of the language are and can use that to structure new sentences. Like giving someone K&R I suppose. Other people need to hear it. Personally, because I am only learning a language for practical purposes like travel, I'd love a course that dispensed with the grammar and taught contemporary phrases used in everyday life. For example, I am never going to ask and be told where the library is. But I'm very likely to hear, "cash or card?" or to ask "does this train go to Bologna?". So practicality for me wins early on, and then later I'd like to learn the top 500 words, and then the grammar structures.

andrewla

I have a theory about language acquisition that I've never had the time to fully explore, that developing an ear for a language is the critical first step.

To that end, my theory would be that a program of imitation & mimicry would be the most effective way to learn. That you would hear a native speaker say a phrase and attempt to fluently imitate it. Specifically, record your voice as you speak and listen to what you say and try to as perfectly as possible imitate the prototype phrase.

Learn vocabulary and grammar later; focus, like children do, on hearing the language and imitating its use. Learn reading and writing last of all; formal grammar and especially spelling are the pedals on the bike.

HPsquared

That's the Pimsleur method. They have you listen and repeat sentences. You listen to a conversation between native speakers and repeat after them to practice the sounds and get a "feel" for it. Speaking is a physical thing with muscle memory.

neves

this is the base of Fluent Forever: https://fluent-forever.com/index.html

the book is very good for who likes to think about learning.

anatoly

It's called "shadowing". Search for [shadowing language learning] to get to discussions of this method, variants, pros and cons etc.

DontchaKnowit

Checkout Learncraft Spanish. The step they take to simplify that others do not is that they focus knly on grammer for a very lokg time, and just use english verbs and nouns.

For example, at a certain point the only words you will have learned are que and lo, so the quiz sentances will be like :

I want you to eat it -> I want que lo you eat

This prpgram has been extremely useful to me and helped me learn spanosh far quicker than other methods. They also use memory palace techniques and have an unusually effective way of organizing vocab learning

larsiusprime

Author of the piece here, I speak three languages (Norwegian, English, and Spanish) and am currently working on a fourth (Japanese).

"Taking the pedals off the bike" advice for language learning:

- Learn pronunciation first

A lot of people never master a native (or semi-native) accent, but if you sit down and figure it out, it's easier than it seems at first. Getting the native pronunciation down matters because otherwise you literally can't distinguish between certain words, and it will be a habit you'll never unlearn. It makes everything else easier. It also gives you massive cred with native speakers who will overlook your atrocious grammar and paltry vocab because "wow, you sound good! I'm impressed." It's taken both as a sign of respect and that you're putting in the effort, and makes you punch above your actual weight. This does wonders for confidence and makes you less shy about trying to learn by speaking & listening, which is crucial.

Gabriel Wyner does a good job explaining it in his book "Fluent Forever" (his method is pretty cool too but I have some critiques of it overall, "learn pronunciation first" is the best single lesson to transfer to other language learning methodologies).

ericrallen

If you haven’t checked out the Pimsleur[0] app, you might find it useful for learning a language.

It’s the only language learning system that has ever worked for me. It focuses on speaking and every day language rather than reading, writing, and memorizing vocabulary, conjugations, etc.

It isn’t cheap, but it’s designed for you to learn enough to not need it anymore.

It probably doesn’t work for everyone, but it did feel like a different approach than many of the other language apps I tried in the past.

[0]: https://www.pimsleur.com/

anarchonurzox

That sounds rather like the way the Pimsleur approach teaches. It drills fundamentals of grammar through fairly basic "travel vocabulary," but once you have that foundation you can go pretty far.

globular-toast

It's funny really. I assumed by the context of being posted here on HN that this wasn't literally about teaching children to ride a bike.

I'm reminded of the approach taken by the book Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (SICP): start with this magical thing called Scheme and learn simple programming techniques and general principles like abstraction, then gradually add the "pedals" back until you've basically learnt to program in assembly and write a compiler for your high-level language.

null

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nagonago

I agree, but to be fair I think that point could have been made clearer in the post.

A similar but related lesson: the best way to teach something is to design a task that is just difficult enough that the learner can figure it out on their own.

When I was reading parenting books in preparation for my own kids, this is one consistent theme that kept coming up, sometimes called "scaffolding." The idea is that you provide a safe environment, design a task that is just the right level of difficulty, then let the child figure it out themselves. (For example, rather than directly holding a kid climbing up a ladder, let them climb it by themselves while you stand by to catch them just in case.) As a result, they develop more independence, self-confidence, and the lessons stick.

"Every time we teach a child something, we keep him from inventing it himself. On the other hand that which we allow him to discover by himself will remain with him visibly for the rest of his life." -- Jean Piaget

d1sxeyes

Piaget is well known in teaching circles as a philosophical father of pedagogy. A (slightly) less know pedagogist is Vygotsky, who invented the term “Zone of Proximal Development”. The idea is that kids can learn from others and from experimentation if you can design activities where you take the skills they currently have, consider the skill you want them to acquire, and build steps between them that a child can succeed in. To develop this example: once a child can walk, they can learn to balance by being given a task which allows them to safely experiment with falling over and staying upright. Once they can balance, you can experiment with moving while balancing. Once they can move forward with balancing, they can learn stopping safely. Finally, they should be ready to learn how to pedal.

If you don’t allow them to complete all the previous steps, they may just keep failing at the next task, because they’re not yet in the “zone” to be able to acquire the next skill.

If a child can’t balance annd move forwards unaided, they won’t be able do the next thing (pedalling) even with help.

Children have different skills and capabilities and Vygotsky is not prescriptive about who needs to help, and the ZPD theory often encourages learning from peers rather than adults (parents/teachers).

nmeofthestate

Folk sometimes can't see the Linkedin post for the trees.

Maxion

Don’t Miss the Post for the Trees – Here’s Why Most People Do

You see it all the time. A post comes through your feed. It's insightful. It’s bold. It’s… mostly ignored.

Why? Because people don’t actually engage with the core idea — they react to what they think it says.

The same thing happens in business: - Founders get stuck in the weeds of their product without seeing the bigger market opportunity. - Teams hyper-focus on the tech, missing the customer pain point. - Investors hear the pitch, but miss the deeper vision driving it.

People miss the post for the trees.

Here’s the thing: breakthroughs happen when you push past surface-level reactions. The best founders? They’re not just building products — they’re connecting dots others miss. The best marketers? They’re not just optimizing campaigns — they’re shifting narratives. The best investors? They’re not chasing trends — they’re seeing past the noise.

If you want to stand out in a noisy world, here’s the question to ask yourself: Am I reacting to the surface? Or am I leaning in to understand what’s really being said?

The magic is always in the nuance. The signal is often buried in the noise. The big ideas? They’re the ones that most people scroll past.

So… don’t.

(I'm sorry I had to)

nickburns

I belive this is simply called 'critical thinking.'[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

sofayam

And now you’re all just being mean.

throwway120385

I've been told that it's easier to learn to ski without poles by an experienced instructor. Apparently his pupils would all spend their time trying to figure out these new "pole" things and very little time actually learning how to balance if he started there. I also think it's probably better to hike without trekking poles even on difficult terrain until you master balance. They're more for supporting your upper body if you have a 75+ liter pack full of gear than for keeping you from eating shit if you step on an unsupported rock.

marklubi

I've taught several snowboarders how to ride and the teaching process is about putting them in a position where they forget about the distracting things.

Always start them on a blue (or blue-black) slope, because it forces them to learn to use the edge of the board. Lot of easy drills like side slipping and simply turning your head to control direction.

If you start a snow boarder on a green run, it always results in them catching an edge and eventually face planting. Not a fun experience.

semi-extrinsic

A bit like skateboarding - on typical pavement, it's easier to fall just going straight if you go ~3 mph than if you go ~6 mph.

ghostpepper

> Always start them on a blue (or blue-black) slope

Surely you can't be serious?

keeganpoppen

that might be a good analogy because, generally speaking, skiing is much, much harder without poles (hence an expert would never do it (unless they are hitting an olympic vert ramp or something)), but it is exactly for this reason that the poles distract you from learning the "right" lesson-- people use their poles pretty much randomly at the start, and the poles help them... to do the wrong thing. but once you have the real crux of skiing down-- body position and balance + using your edges and weight shifts to turn-- poles are completely trivial to add.

great analogy!

analog31

When my kids learned to ski, it was without poles. The poles are an encumbrance, not only on the slope, but getting onto the tow rope.

Likewise, music. The most popular method -- Suzuki -- starts kids out without sheet music. Reading comes later.

In both cases, it's also just less gear to manage. The benefit becomes obvious in group lessons and recitals.

tarentel

I took skiing lessons a couple years ago. This is how it was done. I can't say it was any easier as I had never skied before and I never will again.

netghost

Another take I've had is that we were wrong in the past. Pedaling isn't the tricky part of riding a bike. Balancing is. Training wheels let you learn to pedal.

conor-

Maybe that's part of the reason why "strider" bikes are becoming a lot more common for toddlers to learn how to ride a bike. They're effectively what the OP describes, a bike with no pedals that you run and then balance on.

CRConrad

Those were already somewhat common around here, back when I taught my kid to ride some... 17-18-19 years ago. But it felt rather superfluous to buy a separate gadget that he'd use for at most a few months, when the same effect could be achieved by just taking the pedals off a "real" bike.

(Unfortunately, we'd already started him on the old-fashioned route with pedals and training wheels. Fortunately, he wasn't all that heartbroken when we "discovered that a thief must have stolen" the pedals and training wheels. And he was quite ecstatic when later "the thief must have returned the pedals".)

So I really recommend the ordinary-bike-with-removed-pedals method to start with. The trick is just to get the saddle low enough. Old-fashioned[1] saddle mounts with a multi-piece clamp on the saddle post usually have that below the longitudinal rails on the saddle. You can flip the bits around so the rails go below the bolt of the clamp, and thereby lower the saddle by a couple centimeters / about an inch. This is a rather fiddly job within the narrow confines under the saddle / above the rails / inside the side flaps of the saddle, but it's possible. Three guesses as to how I know this.

___

[1]: And most stuff on not-exorbitantly-expensive kids' bikes is quite old-fashioned; kids' bikes are much cheaper than "serious" adult ones, so manufacturers have to scrimp wherever they can.

dr_dshiv

I love riding bikes with no pedals. You do feel like a dandy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandy_horse

Also, is it shocking to anyone that pedal+chain bicycles were invented in 1885, less than 20 years before powered flight?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle

01HNNWZ0MV43FF

Sort of a sit-down, off-road push scooter!

robotresearcher

They used to be called ‘velocipedes’.

wrsh07

There's a great (underrated) video on YouTube about training a neural network to manage a double pendulum

It changes gravity! This is sort of like managing a double pendulum under water^ and then trying it in the air

The video: https://youtu.be/9gQQAO4I1Ck?si=Hs_3GxrZgmhr2xSn

^ haha not sure this would be easier

jodrellblank

That is an interesting video! Your writing made me expect the neural network had changed gravity as hacky part of its solution, but it's the creator trying to train a neural network to balance a simulated double pendulum and failed, and then wondered if he could train a simpler version in a simulation with no gravity and high friction to make it easy, then see if the solution can gradually be retrained to cope as he adjusts those to full gravity and normal friction. The visualisations in it are very good.

wrsh07

Gah I can see why you would be confused

Yes yes, I was trying to show "here's a simplification one made to train a simple network how to do a hard thing" and much like removing pedals, I think it's effective

Unrelated, in dog agility they sometimes train weave poles using the channel method. So they set the weave poles to form a channel that the dog runs through. And then they gradually narrow the channel. Finally they have narrowed the channel until the poles are in a straight line

teekert

This is spot on. I live in the Netherlands, both my kids could ride a bike at 2. Shortly after learning how to walk, many kids here get a "loopfiets" (walking bike) which is exactly this, a bike with no pedals (nor a chain etc) [0]. I never saw a kid that can't ride this instantly.

Now, the funny thing is that most parents, when their kids are ready for a real bike, they put them on one with side-wheels (support wheels?) [1, 2]... My wife and I were looking at kids doing this and were thinking the same thing: "Wait, this is unlearning the whole thing they learned about balance and steering on 2 wheels! Let's go straight to no-support-wheels!" And voila, there they were, within a couple of attempts (we ran along) they were riding around! While many kids struggle when their support wheels come off.

Since then we joke that we are part of the anti-support-wheel-club when we see kids steering uncomfortably on such a bike. Which is really awkward since the bike has to stay upright, the kids have to hang to one side for balance when steering. And yet, it remains the most (or at least, a very) popular way.

[0] https://www.babyhomepage.nl/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Loopf...

[1] https://media.s-bol.com/qQv4Y69p8j33/1155x1200.jpg

[2] https://bike.nl/loekie-booster-kinderfiets-12-inch-jongens-g...

fortylove

The "walking bikes" you mention are extremely common in the US as well, and are referred to as "balance bikes" here.

efsavage

> I never saw a kid that can't ride this instantly.

As a data point, we tried this with my son, who is physically very capable if not advanced, and despite many attempts over months, it never clicked for him. We eventually went the training wheels route, which he instantly adopted, and once he was comfortable on that for a while, he learned to ride without them in a single session.

We've since met other parents who had similar experiences, so I think it's definitely not a universal thing that balance bikes are better or even useful.

dirtyaura

Same with my daughter. We tried with balance bike, but she didn't adopt it and didn't find it fun to try. We went to training wheels and she was immediately motivated. And at the same time, I've heard success stories with balance bikes from my friends.

Kids are different, try out different things.

xlii

This, in my opinion, proves that different people might need different things. And, in turn, many immensely able and skilled ones fail at standard route (e.g. successful writers fail at school).

It’s fairy obvious but I like to keep this poka-yoke’ish concept in mind: it’s not about the person, it’s about the process.

looofooo0

problem is peadling, we used some 4 wheel thing to get this going.

f1shy

I would never go to support wheels after a walking bike (laufrad in german). They learn to use instantly, and pretty fast are stable and balancing. Next step is to add pedals, but NOT pedals+support wheels!

dizhn

The difficult part is not balance but looking ahead. When you are first learning to use the pedals, you instinctively LOOK at them. That's what makes it difficult. I learned on a standard bike but did not pedal until somone encouraged me to try. I was going downhill fast and everything without using the pedals. :)

dowager_dan99

I disagree; you don't balance on a bike, you adjust the balance point under the bike as it tips to one side and the other with pressure. This is why beginners "S" their way at the start, then get finer grain control. This is similar to skiing, where you don't balance on top but keep pressure applied to an edge.

teekert

Yeah, this is the way. I don't know why the training wheels route is still so ingrained here. Probably also some kids start there, and not on a balance bike (wrong imo).

7thaccount

I've seen some kids struggle with the pedaling if they've only done balance bike. A week or so with support wheels doesn't rob them of the balancing skills they learned and allows them to put the two skills together (balancing and pedaling) instead of having to learn to pedal for the first time with balancing. I'm sure any of these methods work just fine though including what many of us older folks did of just tricycle to bicycle.

jansan

I learned riding the bike with support wheels. This was almost 50 years ago, but I remember that it sucked, because whenever a support wheel touched the ground it would pull you to that side. With my children we did the same as you, and they learned really fast. My younger son was a little bit of a hotshot on the walking bike, but that is an entirely different story.

wildzzz

I struggled learning how to ride a bike. Training wheels made it difficult for me so my dad took them off and I struggled more because I didn't understand speed = balance. I gave up and asked for a Razer scooter for Christmas instead. A few years later, I'm at a family event (without my scooter) and I'm watching my cousins ride around the culdesac on their bikes making it look super easy. I hopped on one of their bikes and just started pedalling, it was so easy. Ran back inside to show my parents and they were happy for me but incredibly confused how I just learned how to ride a bike without any real instruction. Maybe a Razer scooter helped me with balance and not being afraid to go fast, I can see how a scooter is similar to a walking bike.

dowager_dan99

training/support wheels address the wrong part of what's "hard" about riding a bike. They also encourage the kid to sit down and look at their feet, limit where you can ride, make pedaling harder, provide false security (if you've ever seen a kid tip), and steal all the fun from riding a bike. Bikes are awesome because your body inputs have such an impact on what happens; training wheels make a bike like driving a car.

astura

>when their kids are ready for a real bike, they put them on one with side-wheels (support wheels?)

In the US they are called "training wheels."

crest

"Das sind Stürzräder, nicht Stützräder." sigh

6510

When much older, after cycling thousands of km, I tried a bike with support wheels and it was absolutely terrifying! How is one suppose to take corners?

dowager_dan99

Inevitably the rear end slides out, the bike tips over or the support wheel/brace fails.

null

[deleted]

saagarjha

Slowly. They're meant for children.

deltarholamda

I took the pedals off for one of my kids (the others did the training wheels), and it worked quite well.

The only downside was that he figured out that if he got wobbly, he could stick his legs down and a bit out and it would help him stabilize by lowering the center of gravity. That seemed great at the time, but when the pedals were put back on, he would still use this trick when he got wobbly, which isn't a great instinct. Took a bit of time to train that out of him.

But in the end, it was faster than the training wheels, and it's cheaper than buying a specialized balance bike.

7thaccount

My kid did a bicycle with the support wheels for a little while just to get the mechanics for pedaling, then did a balance bike for a month or so. After that I put the pedals on with no support wheels and she was riding in no time. I do think the balance bike helps a lot.

dgacmu

Agree with the point of this post. I'd never heard of balance bikes, and then my wife did some research when we had our first kid and found out about this.

We've now taught both of our kids to bike by starting with a balance bike, and the comparison with their friends who learned with training wheels was amazing - the balance bike kids were zooming around earlier, confidently, and with many fewer spills than the training wheel cohort.

Also, you can get a balance bike with a handbrake, which sets them up well for getting a bike with handbrakes instead of coaster brakes. Kids bikes in the US have to be sold with coasters but there are several manufacturers (like woom) who make it really easy to remove the coaster and have front and rear hand brakes.

Also also, most kids bikes in the US are too heavy: they're tough and cheap but it makes it hard to control them. Woom and Isla and probably a few others now make aluminum frame bikes for kids that are much more appropriate weight for their sizes, though at a bit of a cost.

lqet

We were also skeptical, but bought a used Puky balance bike [0] for our daughter when she was 1,5. It cost 20 EUR and basically had everything a normal bike has (brakes, added reflectors, bell) and she was able to use it for longer distances (2 km to daycare) very quickly and safely. This was a huge benefit for us, as walking this distance was usually an endless litany of "don't wanna walk, carry me please, take me on your shoulders please, etc", and a 2 year also doesn't really like sitting in a stroller anymore.

When she was 4, we bought her a regular bike. The "learning process" went like this: I told her "it's like your old bike, but with pedals to drive faster". She sat on it, used it like a balance bike for 3 rounds in our driveway, and then started to test the pedals. After literally 5 minutes, I went for a drive with her through our neighborhood.

We were completely flabbergasted. It took both me and my wife 2 long Sunday afternoons with our dads in a large parking space to learn to ride a bike. We both started with training wheels when we were 2.

[0] https://www.gigasport.de/puky-laufrad-12-lr-1l-br-pink-72928...

ljf

Snap - my son loved his balance bike and would even ride it around the house. We got him a 'good' bicycle (about £140) and he learnt to ride it in about 10 minutes, and same as your child - he rode home and from that moment on he loved his bike.

My daughter never enjoyed or wanted a balance bike, and only gave up her three wheeled scooter about age 7. We tried getting her to cycle a few times, but she couldn't get her head around it. Then last summer she grabbed a 2 wheeled scooter and picked them up quite fast, and the evolution from that to the bicycle seemed pretty easy. We just had to wait until she was ready and interested - I'd tried to encourage her before, but my style for everything now it just to riff off their interests and let them find their place.

Same for swimming, I went swimming with a friend who tried to teach their child 'drills' - which obviously bored them (both). I just let my kids jump in and dive for sinkies - in time (swimming twice a week) they have developed further and further - but they are always up for the pool as they know I'll let them do what they want and focus on having fun.

dsego

We went from floaties to a kickboard one summer and then last summer just took away the kickboard and practiced without it, quickly after that we had a swimmer at age of 4. Note that before that moment paid swimming lessons didn't help, somehow it just needs to happen in the right moment and each kids has their own pace.

nasmorn

My neighbor who already knew how to ride a balance bike thought herself how to ride a bike all on her own at 4-5 years old. I was in the hammock watching her roll down a small incline where getting to pedaling is even easier than on a flat. That was an amazing moment watching another human being having an absolutely awesome day. She might be exceptionally good at this though she is now 12 and rides unicycles

ljf

The incline makes it so much easier for sure! I got my kids going on a slight hill that was covered in grass so they weren't so fearful to fall off.

VBprogrammer

Yeah, I used to take our daughter to nursery on her balance bike. I could tell when she started doing little bursts of speed so that she could put her feet up and coast for a while that she had picked up the essentials of balancing.

She did have a bike with stabilisers but she didn't use it much like that as she didn't enjoy it. Between getting "high sided" on bumps and the feeling of falling over before the wheels took the weight.

When her first friend started riding properly she asked me to teach her to ride without stabilisers. I bought one of the push bars from Amazon which was a confidence booster for both of us as I could run behind her and make sure she was safe. It only took 5 minutes before she was riding off on her own. Sadly she got a bit over confident and had a bit of a spill which gave her a bleeding lip which set her back a couple of weeks but the next time she was off without assistance almost immediately.

A few months later she was cycling 10km around the Ile d'oleron in France!

sudobash1

I remember coaster brakes fondly. As an American kid, all of my bikes had them. What was great about them was that you can engage them so suddenly and forcefully that you instantly lock the rear wheel. If you did that on wet asphalt at high speed and jerk the bike just right, you could spin the bike around 180 degrees or more. It was a great day when I (accidentally) found that out. You can also do that somewhat on dry pavement, but your rear wheel is going to have a reduced lifespan.

I think that coaster breaks (and maybe steel frames) are better suited to kids who want to be rough with their bike. My wheels were never very true, and they would have rubbed awfully with rim breaks. (Disk breaks were unheard of on kids bikes then, and I think are still pretty rare now.) The main downside is that if you loose the chain, you loose all breaking power. That happened once to me, but thankfully there was a nice dirt ditch close at hand.

xerox13ster

I prayed for long stretches of dry days during the summer when I was a kid, because we had a tree-lined trail with an incline leading to a back field. The trees were such that there was little to no grass on the house side of the trail, so when it dried up nice it would become dusty and loose. My siblings and I would spend all day taking turns ripping down that trail then locking up the brakes to go sliding into the dirt patch, sending up dust clouds and competing to see who could make the biggest.

We kept this up into our teens (bc we were rural way outside of town and our parents were luddites about the internet so we had little else to do after playing all our video games to death) and I got to the point I could drift down the latter portion of the trail and right the bike and ride away without touching the ground. I had moved on to a regular "mountain" bike by my teens so I had to tighten my rear brake and true my wheel so it didn't rub to get enough stopping force to lock out the rear wheel. At one point I was using that move as a core workout lol. (That and side flips on the trampoline.)

usefulcat

You can definitely lock up the rear wheel with hand brakes. Still happens to me semi-regularly purely by accident when I have to stop suddenly.

kibwen

Yep, it's a great physics lesson for learning why cars have anti-lock brakes.

hodgesrm

You can even do 360s with coaster brakes. We wore out many tires at the park down the road from my house. It had a gentle slope that got you up to the perfect speed for coaster break fun on the smooth asphalt entrance road.

fnfjfk

You could technically footjam, just need to show the kids enough BMX or fixed gear videos first...

dgacmu

It's very true! (about locking the wheel with coaster breaks)

I broke my jaw this way when I was 6 or 7. :-) Tried to do a 90 degree skid going down a steep alley and did an endo, landing on my chin. Do not recommend.

I mean, I probably would have broken some bones anyway with the way I biked at that age, but this particular one might not have happened without the coaster breaks.

We haven't quite gotten to that stage with my 7yo yet. 12yo wasn't too rough on her bike but 7yo is, um, er, let's say he doesn't have the wisdom of being older yet.

CRConrad

You started out so well, but then it all broke.

kvgr

Training wheels are horrible thing. When i was a little kid i didn't want to let go of them. One day my mother removed them, hold me by my shirt collar and told me to pedal. At the end of the day I was riding like a boss.

As the author said, training wheels are learning backwards. You learn to pedal, but not to ride. You need to ride, then learn to pedal. And the motivation is also positive: removing training wheels is bad, cause you will fall. Adding pedals is good, because it allows you to go faster.

cb321

While this whole thread is heavily dominated by bashing on training wheels (deservedly so, I can say having tried to teach a full blown 29 year old to ride bikes), this incentive/motivation inversion you mention is interesting.

"Protections/guards" of some kind are so common (not just in software/tech, but all life) that "training wheels" has become a huge metaphor/analogy. I wonder how many other examples there are of the motivation inversion?

prmoustache

It is the same with education. Kids don't get anything if you are using the negative form "don't do this bla bla stop doing that bla bla" and even worse when parents add the confidence sapping "you will fall"/"you will hurt yourself".

It is better to use the positive form: "take your time and make sure you have both feets secured before moving your hand" (on a climbing wall) "stay this distance from the end of the edge of the sidewalk, the bus can pass really close"

hunter-gatherer

My parents taught me to ride by pushing the bike down a small hill with me on it! Lol

Same thing though. I was ruding the bike like a boss pretty quickly.

prmoustache

Actually that is what we use to teach adults how to ride bikes. They get it much better if they get used to push the bicycle for a couple of hours, plus mounting dismounting it in a standstill. It teaches them they can control it and it doesn't appear like some external contraption whose sole purpose is to make them crash.

lelanthran

> We've now taught both of our kids to bike by starting with a balance bike,

I looked at the balance bike, thought "what a waste of money" and told my kid "just scoot up and down this level pathway while I fix the pool pump. don't worry about pedaling." and 5 minutes into the pump repair he was balancing just fine.

I'm not buying a toy that gets used for 5 minutes only. Whether I can afford it or not is irrelevant.

benhurmarcel

Usually people get balance bikes for kids that are too small for a normal bike, so they use it for some time before they get tall enough to change (around a year or 2).

pastage

A balance bike is a way of transportation for kids, they can use balance bikes for a long time before they are comfortable with biking with pedals. We are talking years with a balance bike and then there is an overlap where they prefer the balance bike.

It is also alot more light weight than a normal bike so it is actually better for you and the kid. I transported a kid and a balance bike easily on a normal bike for more than 20 km, they managed about 10 km on their own.

lelanthran

> We are talking years with a balance bike and then there is an overlap where they prefer the balance bike.

Let me clarify - I'm not saying you can't continue using it for years after.

I'm saying there is no point to continuing using it once the kids has developed their balance. That development typically takes only a few dozen minutes, at most.

As an analogy, consider reading. Your kid can, after learning to read, continue reading the level-1 (Fun With Dick And Jane type) books for years, but why would you encourage that?

dgacmu

We got about two years per kid out of it (age 2-4). 4 years of amortized bike for something like $100 seemed pretty good, and it was in good enough shape after that we gave it to a neighbor. It's definitely not a 5 minute thing if used as the primary bike for a child too young for a pedal bike.

alistairSH

This. And I don't think I've ever see a 2-3 year old pedal a bike well. But holy-moly can they rock out on a balance bike.

logifail

> I'm not buying a toy that gets used for 5 minutes only

Round here loads of kindergarten-age kids use their balance bike for transportation every single day. I saw one zooming along behind her/his parent (who was pushing another kid along in a buggy) first thing this morning.

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lqet

> toy

A toy? The balance bike was our kid's secondary mode of transportation for 2.5 years, after our bike trailer.

freehorse

How old was your kid? I mean apart from learning to balance itself there is a matter of how strong the thigh muscles are in order to pedal. If your kid was like 5 then it makes sense that it would not be that interesting. If your kid is like 3 or sth, then a balance bike can be a great means of transportation for them. They can use it really a lot and enjoy it, until they can actually pedal on a normal bike in a way that it can be practical. The point of the balance bike is not "to learn balance", but to actually be used for moving around.

khaki54

Balance bikes are super cheap, very light, and the kid uses it for like a year or more until you are ready to buy the proper bike

yojo

Isla discontinued selling in the US. Frog is another UK company that makes cheap and light. Also look at Prevelo or Cleary (slightly heavier). These bikes all hold up well, other than replacing tires and occasionally brake pads.

They also hold value well. I’ve been buying/selling used kids bikes on FB as my kids outgrow them, and so far been averaging about $15/year to keep my kids on primo bikes.

pmyteh

Isla has folded, sadly (though they're still selling replacement parts for now). A shame: their machines really were magnificent. We have also been running through them (mostly second-hand) and selling them on, and it's been a cheap and excellent means of primary transport.

cameron_b

The ins and outs of that coaster brake rule provide a lot of wiggle room. My kids started on balance bikes and have moved up to a 12" and 24" ( wheel size ) from Cleary with hand brakes. They missed the regression of coaster brakes and training wheels. Geometry for kids bikes mainly comes down to the scale of the cranks. Small cranks are needed to lower the foot position and center of gravity enough to be 'in scale' with how we tend to consider bike geometry to work, but the shorter cranks also limit the suitability to a shorter leg length, so my kids' Cleary Gecko is pretty small on my 4yo, but she's ridden it for two years.

Small kids need smaller components, but it's hard to make small components reliable and cost effective. I really appreciate the folks who took the time to translate the same darn brake levers used all over the world to a size suitable for a 2 year old's hand. They're the cutest thing and they're the first thing I had to teach my son how to use after he was cooking it down hills on the balance bike. They get banged up first on a fall, they get merciless treatment, and they perform the same way I expect mine or any other to perform.

dsego

Same here, balance bike straight to pedal bike at 3 years old. No training wheels, she managed to learn in a span of a day or two. It took some more time to learn to brake with front levers and that's it. And the back pedal coaster brakes were just confusing, she would unknowingly start pedaling backwards and it prevented her from pulling the pedal up to start propelling (later on she would learn to push off or just sit on the bicycle and get started). We started on a 12" kokua likeabike jumper before the age of 2 and later converted to a lightweight 16" rascal bike (great czech brand that delivers across europe). The coaster brakes where on a specialized jett 16 and we ditched this boat anchor quickly. Now she is 4.5 and she can do a 12km ride with me, we even do climbs with a shotgun tow rope because her bike is single speed.

prmoustache

> We've now taught both of our kids to bike by starting with a balance bike, and the comparison with their friends who learned with training wheels was amazing

There is actually a third way. Learn to ride a bike the correct way first time. It is not that hard, I got it in a few minutes when I was a kid.

The thing is it can't be easy if you have used trainer wheels before because trainer wheels teach you stuff you have to unlearn first.

Note: I am not arguing about the merit of the balance bike. A balance bike is indeed faster for a small 2-3y old kid than a bike is at that age anyway. But most of the benefits of a balance bike is less to teach balance than to put the idea of trainer wheels away from parents.

dsego

Yes, I see this all the time around my neighborhood, kids get so used to the training wheels, they can just hop off their bike and leave it there while they play some other games. And then they just jump back on the bike. Those bikes can also have all tons of silly accessories, like baskets, ribbons, huge bells, it's not like the kid has to hold the bike upright or learn how to lean it against a wall or on the ground. And then I heard a parent say his kid doesn't want to take off the training wheels, they tried it once for a day and she hated it. Gee, wonder why, now they are waiting for the 5-yearold to tell them when she's ready to take them off. Good luck with that.

mroset

My daughter started using a balance bike around 18 months. By the time she was 2.5, she zoomed around on it and had started asking about pedals. We got her a pedal bike two months before she turned 3, with the expectation that we might have to take the pedals off for a few more months. Instead, within a few days (maybe 2 total hours of practice?) she was riding confidently and totally by herself--at not quite 3 years old.

It's so different than the challenging, scary attempts to remove training wheels when my siblings and I were 5 or 6 years old. One of those things where I didn't realize the science and tradition on teaching kids to ride bikes could change so dramatically within two decades!

throwaway2037

Wow, what a story. You daughter was riding a regular bike before three. Is she physically talented in other ways? That seems exceptional!

scraplab

All three of my kids were riding full bikes around 3 years old, having used a balance bike for 12-18 months previous. I don’t think my kids are exceptional - balance bikes work wonders!

danielbln

Same story here. My kiddo rode her bike at 3 easily, and used a balance bike before that.

Me on the other hand, I had a tough time back when I was a kid on training wheels, only really grokking it at 6 or so.

mroset

She doesn't have very athletic parents, so she regularly exceeds my expectations for her, but she's not a particular standout otherwise!

Probably the more relevant factor: we replaced one of cars with a cargo bike when she was 15 months old, so she does 1500+ miles a year "on" a bike, and a tiny fraction of that in a car (we live in a totally car-centric US city, so this is pretty out of the norm). Bikes are the fabric of her daily life so she is really, really motivated to spend time on a bike.

matsemann

Yeah, ironically training wheels was a bad idea. It learns you the motions of pedaling, but not the core skill: balancing.

throwaway01151

This is exactly how I teach people to drive stick, and they’ll learn within 30 minutes. Put them on an empty road with a downward slope. The car will roll on its own, without them having to use the gas pedal. Then they can just practice switching into first without the risk of stalling. After a few times integrate using the gas pedal.

lelanthran

> This is exactly how I teach people to drive stick, and they’ll learn within 30 minutes. Put them on an empty road with a downward slope. T

I do it exactly the other way: put them on an empty road with a slight uphill.

With the parking brake on, let them practice getting a feel for when the clutch "bites". When it does, put the parking brake down and the car remains stationary.

Do that a few times (10m, or less) and the learner develops an intuition all by themselves for how the clutch pedal works (there's some travel until it "bites", the expected type of progression of the pedal, etc).

Can't teach that when they learn to use it like a button (which is what happens when they learn to change with the car in motion).

alexjplant

I've had success with getting people to do a clutch-only start then stop several times over. Once they get a feel for the engagement zone and realize that they can speed up the process by applying gas somewhere around it then it's all (metaphorically) downhill from there.

This is how I taught myself how after having multiple people tell me things like "it's just a continuous motion you do with both legs", "you just let the other pedal out while you give it gas", etc. Driving a manual seems to be one of those things that few people seem to be good at teaching because they forget how frustrating it can be to learn.

left-struck

Oh man yeah the advice about continuous motion is not right. A clutch is a torque control device, in the case of a car it’s more like a torque limiting device. The more you let the pedal out the more torque you allow the engine to apply to the wheels up until the point where the torque you allow exceeds the engine’s available torque at a given rpm and throttle position. So if you’re constantly letting the clutch out you’re ramping up the torque limit linearly but the engine speed and wheel speed don’t match and if the engine speed is low of course the engine can easily stall.

Instead what you want to do, what most people do subconsciously is let the clutch out partially until it is allowing the engine to apply some of its available torque but not all, and then pause there until the car’s speed roughly matches the engine speed, at which point the clutch will stop slipping even though you still have the pedal partially depressed, after which you should be able to rapidly raise your foot from the clutch and feel no acceleration or deceleration. For an experienced driver that pause is less than like half a second from standstill. Also technically the point at which you want to pause the clutch let out depends on a whole bunch of things like how quickly you want to pull off, how much torque the engine can provide and whether you’re on a hill etc, but we just do this intuitively with experience.

This is like a super over-complicated way to think about it and I would never try to teach a learner driver by first explaining this lol but the point is, you find the engagement point and hold there for a while and then release when the car is moving. This is what we all do but it helps to understand why we do it so we don’t explain things wrong.

I feel like people also don’t get what applying more throttle does while the clutch is slipping. All it does is raise the engine rpm, it will apply absolutely no more torque (and therefore acceleration) no matter how much you press down the throttle. While the clutch is slipping the clutch pedal controls your torque and therefore acceleration. You need some throttle though to give you some room for error and some minimum torque to work with.

Nition

The funny thing is when I first started learning to drive, it seemed impossible to get right without stalling or bunny-hopping or something else going wrong. Yet now after years of driving it feels like there's a huge window of acceptable throttle and clutch. Apply tons or throttle or hardly any. Release the clutch carefully or quickly. Car always starts great. There must be so much muscle memory magic to it. I don't think I could bunny-hop the car anymore if I tried.

taneq

Interesting… I learned exactly the opposite way and I’d argue it was easier. Feet on clutch and brake. Start the engine. Get used to the feeling. Gear stick into first. Back to neutral. Give it a wiggle, that’s how you know you’re in neutral. Practice changing from neutral to first and back. Foot off the brake, practice holding the engine at 1k, 1.5k, 2k rpm.

Talk through the next bit first: Hold engine at 1.5k rpm. Ease off clutch just enough to start engaging and rolling forwards. Back on the clutch then gently break to a stop. Repeat until confident.

Etc. etc. The whole time the learner is in control of the car and they learn the basics without having to worry about steering.

brailsafe

I think this is basically the same thing, just with the other steps included. On the right surface in first gear you don't need the brake, so just controlling the clutch is enough to move the car

esaym

Weird. It didn't click for me until I had to stop on a hill and then go up it. And that is how I taught a few friends (after a few flat street trials)

grogenaut

I couldn't figure it out even with this. Then my friend explained how a clutch worked and I started it on the first try. And I had been driving a tractor for years. But a tractor is a different torquey beast.

throwaway2037

Someone recently told me that petrol and diesel engines with manual transmission feel very different. He told me that driving his dad's manual transmission diesel engine was easier because the clutch was "more forgiving". I cannot driving manual, so I have no idea about it. My guess: That tractor is diesel.

grogenaut

To explain different. Cars are geared like a bike in the fastest gears, starting takes a lot of torque. Tractors are like the slowest gear like a mountain bike climbing gear. In addition a tractor motor is like a champion squatter and a car's is like a the fastest kid at your school (Olympic sprinters are still strong).

Cars spend no time at .5 mph but plenty at 60. Tractors spend almost no time above 15 and tons of time at .25mph. tractors will pull your house over. Cars won't.

You can pop the clutch in idle in 6th in a tractor and it'll likely start

whatevaa

Diesels have lot's of torque even at low RPM. My diesel can start moving from stopped at small inclines even at idle, no accelerator input. Not great to do, but it can.

Meanwhile some gas cars will stall without accelerator input at straight road.

usefulcat

When I taught my sister how to drive a standard, the one sentence description that I gave her (that she still remembers today) was "before you do anything, push in the clutch".

brailsafe

This is exactly what it reminded me of. My dad taught me by setting me up on a flat surface (parking lot) and getting me to try and find the sweet spot where I could press on the gas a little. As in "let off the clutch a bit and press on the gas" with a bunch of ambiguity in the middle; how much should I do of either, why? When I was teaching my gf, I quickly realized this made no sense at all, and did exactly as you described. It didn't completely alleviate the stress, and I feel a bit bad that I put her through it, but just feathering the clutch is a massively better way to get a feel for it.

foobarian

Wonder if you could do it with the front of the car jacked up.

janderson215

Thanks, gonna try this with my neighbors car!

geocrasher

I taught my son to ride using training wheels. He rode around for a few days and asked me to take them off. So, I took them off. And when I came back outside from putting the tools and training wheels away, he was riding his bike as if he'd never not ridden it. I do like the author's idea however.

By the way, did you know that the the right pedal is right hand thread, but the left pedal is left handed thread? If it wasn't, the left pedal, being right hand threaded, would come loose easily. And that was a Wright Brothers innovation.

scapecast

Love this soundbite. I did not know this and will totally use it to sound smart at dinner parties.

On a somewhat related note, the reason why Peugeot cars have a "0" in their model numbers (e.g. 208, 308, 408, etc.) goes back to the days before electric ignition, and when you still needed a crank to start the engine. The model number was in the middle of the grill, and the crank would go into the "0".

kolp

Apparently the tradition continues. On our Peugeot 407, the button to open the boot (trunk) is in the "0" on the "407" badge.

scapecast

There you go! I wonder what the very first engineer or "product designer" at Peugeot who came up with the idea would think today.

giva

The problem with training wheels is that they train how to ride a quad, not a bike. On a quad, when you turn the handlebar to the left, you go to the left. On a bike, you fall to the right.

manwithaplan

I vaguely remember my training wheels were set a bit higher and not touching the ground unless I was leaning a lot. So this setup would aid training to ride properly.

geocrasher

This is exactly the case.

eesmith

I'm having a really hard time verifying that it was a Wright Brothers innovation.

I can find claims that it was so, but nothing substantial. For example, this 1959 kids book - https://archive.org/details/wilburorvillewri0000augu/page/17... .

On the other hand, I can find cranks which had reversed threads, pre-dating 1900, like US643349A filed 1895 where "The screw-threads on the parts b b' of the shaft are oppositely directed, or, in other words, are right and left hand threads".

It's described as protecting the ball-bearings, not to prevent coming loose.

https://www.wright-brothers.org/Information_Desk/Just_the_Fa... says:

> In 1900, the Wrights announced a "bicycle pedal that can't come unscrewed." Pedals were mounted to the crank by threaded spindles. On early bicycles, both crank arms had standard right-hand threads. As the cyclist pedaled, the action tended to tighten one pedal and loosen the other, with the result that one pedal kept dropping off the bike. British inventor William Kemp Starley had solved a similar problem years before when the right-hand cups that housed the crank or "bottom" bearing on early bicycles kept coming loose. He simply reversed the thread direction on the right cup so the pedaling action kept it tight. It wasn't long before bicycle makers realized the same solution could keep the pedals in place. Wilbur and Orville were in the vanguard of those manufacturers that offered right-hand threads on one crank arm and left-hand threads on the other.

That is, the Wright Brothers were early promoters of the design, but not the innovators.

geocrasher

You may be right. I read this on the late Sheldon Brown's website, and it stuck. References:

    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tancrank.html
    Left-threaded pedals and cranks are reputedly an invention of the Wright brothers, bicycle builders from Dayton, Ohio. (They also built airplanes). 

    https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/left.html
    The left-threaded left pedal was not the result of armchair theorizing, it was a solution to a real problem: people's left pedals kept unscrewing! We have read that the left threading was invented by the Wright brothers, but we are not sure of this.
So, I said it with more authority than was warranted. But it's good enough for normal dinner conversation references ;)

eesmith

It looks like that method was known by 1880, if I read https://archive.org/details/indispensablebic00stur/page/14/m... correctly ('The "indispensable" bicyclist's handbook; a complete cyclopaedia on the subject') correctly:

> The Centaur Crank is first screwed up to a shoulder on the axle with right and left-handed threads, so that the pressure of the foot tends to make it all the more secure ; whilst, to prevent its loosening by “ back-pedalling,” a slightly tapered conical pin is driven through both crank and axle, and secured with a nut.

freehorse

I suspect a lot depends on the age and motor development level that people here are not talking about, and that there should a certain age where a kid has not developed the muscles as much as to bike fast enough to pedal comfortably and fast enough to be able to balance, and an age after where, once one has figured how to pedal comfortably, balancing would not be that hard. I would assume that it would be harder to balance in the first place if you have to struggle putting force to pedal, which also probably means you cannot develop a sufficient speed either.

extraduder_ire

The training wheels on the bike I learned on didn't have an additional brace to stop them from bending. (they were basically an L shape, only supported at the top)

I assume that was helpful for me, as they gave less and less support as they deformed over time and I had to properly balance to stay upright. I was still quite surprised with myself after they were taken off.

hgomersall

It's actually to stop it being screwed in so tightly you can't remove it. The threads are such that in normal usage the pedals turn the same way you'd unscrew them.

hgomersall

Apparently it's actually an effect of the thread precessing into the hole. Interesting.

bluesmoon

It's like the author has never heard of balance bikes, but they're very common, and have been for over a decade. FWIW, I taught my kid to ride when he was 3 by putting him at the top of a wheelchair ramp and letting him go. Took him 5 seconds, and he was riding around the park by himself by the second attempt. He'd never been on a bike before.

Suppafly

>It's like the author has never heard of balance bikes, but they're very common, and have been for over a decade.

Every time a post like this comes up a bunch people haven't heard of them. I'm sure it helps, especially with really little kids, but honestly kids learn to ride bikes pretty easy once they decide they want to really learn regardless of pedals or not.

IshKebab

I think it must be regional. They're universal in the UK now so there's no way you could have a kid and not know about them. Nobody had them when I was young though. Presumably they just haven't quite infiltrated America yet.

alistairSH

The use case is very little kids. They can use a balance bike about the same time they can toddle about the house (but before they can walk longer distances without support or tumbles).

danieldk

This. Here (NL) where pretty much everyone can bike and a substantial portion of the population goes to work/groceries/etc. by bike, most kinds start with what we call a 'walking bike' (pretty much the same as a balance bike). Most kids are already pretty fast on them before switching to a bike with pedals.

It's also often recommended not to use training wheels. Just go balance bike -> pedal pike.

SV_BubbleTime

Strider bikes. And yes, they are amazing. Ours was 2.5 and she insisted she was ready for a big kid bike. Was peddling that afternoon although couldn’t start alone yet.

Training wheels should be mocked off the market.

hi_hi

Balancing is the easy part. Progressing from stand still, to pedalling, while maintaining balance proved much harder (for my child). However, once mastered, the transition to confident rider was fast, I'm sure mostly thanks to having started on a balance bike early, and never having an interest in those scooters that every other kid seems to love (seemingly at the expense of learning to ride a proper bike)

krisoft

> I did so in the usual manner - have her sit on the seat while I grab the handlebars and run along side her, then release the bike and watch her panic, freeze, topple over, and kick the bike in frustration.

This part confuses me a lot. Where I'm from you teach kids to ride by attaching a broom (or similar) stick to the back of the bike. That way you can gently hold them when they mess up the balance, but they still get the appropriate feedback that they need to balance on their own. As a plus you feel when they are getting better at it, and the "release" is softer. It is not an all or nothing process, you just hold the stick less and less, and suddenly the kid is cycling on their own.

I couldn't imagine doing the same with holding the handlebar. It would be hard to do. Would mess their feedback loop up. And what is worse it would telegraph to them when you are releasing them thus making it more likely that they panic.

Does anyone really do the "grabbing the handlebars" method to teach kids to ride a bike? Is it a regional difference?

dsmurrell

You can also use a scarf that goes under their arms and run along with them ready to catch them with the scarf when they are going to fall. This way you apply 0 force and they get all the feedback. It did help that they stared on a balance bike with no pedals before making the transition to the bike with pedals.

geon

Yes, a horrible idea. It's like throwing a kid in deep water and expecting them to swim. Border line child abuse.

I didn't even bother with a broomstick for my kids. I just ran along, holding the cargo rack. It didn't take them long to learn. A few hours spread out?

krisoft

> I didn't even bother with a broomstick for my kids. I just ran along, holding the cargo rack.

Yeah. The story in my family is that my dad decided to teach me how to ride. We drove to a park to do it because our road was too busy. He got the bike out of the car first, and went back to get the broomstick. By the time he was back I was already cycling away from him. Undoubtedly due to all my experience with balance bikes. :)

But possibly to this day I couldn't ride if someone would grab my handlebars and push me for a bit then release them at some point. :D

bityard

Training wheels are terrible. Both of my kids learned how to ride on balance bikes, basically in under a day. When switching to pedal power, there IS a transition period where learning how to pedal AND balance at the same time is challenge. But it's a lot shorter and less frustrating than trying to learn how to pedal AND balance at the same time.

bunderbunder

Agreed. We didn't get onto the balance bike tip until my older kid was a little older, but my younger one started on their older sibling's balance bike as more-or-less a toddler and was riding a bike with pedals by age 4. With basically zero frustration.

Watching peers of theirs who used training wheels, I've realized they're a trap. The mechanics of how a bike actually steers are completely different when you put training wheels on it. Whenever a third wheel is touching the ground (something that seems to be hard to avoid while turning, from what I've seen) it starts to steer like a trike instead of a bicycle. So transitioning from that to riding without training wheels is doubly difficult, because you also have to un-learn the instincts and muscle memory you developed with training wheels.

Transitioning from a balance bike to one with pedals is much easier because the main instinct they'll be taking from it - putting a foot on the ground when you get into trouble - remains useful. It naturally helps prevent skinned knees during the transition period.

merlynkline

Exactly this. The article has the right conclusion but invents a nonsense explanation. The truth is that bicycles counter-steer at any reasonable rolling speed - to go right, you nudge the steering to the left, which causes the bike to start falling to the right and then steer into that fall. People often find this hard to believe, even experienced riders, but it is easily tested. The problem is that training wheels turn a bicycle into a tricycle, which steers in the opposite way - to go right you steer to the right. So kids learn that and then you take the training wheels off and the first attempt to steer immediately causes a nasty fall because of steering the wrong way. I made this mistake teaching my first to ride, and she hurt herself and never really liked bikes after that. Seeing it happen, I had an epiphany (eventually) and just took the pedals off that bike for my second, who had the experience described elsewhere in this thread and loved bikes thereafter.

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johnmaguire

I hear this sentiment all the time. But as a kid, I first rode a bike with training wheels. The day my dad removed them, I went outside before him, hopped on the bike, and just started riding. There was no "learning to balance" or drama. I remember my parents were surprised but... maybe training wheels aren't so bad for everyone?

One thing I think gets lost in the discussion of training wheels: people act like you have four wheels flat on the ground, with no opportunity to balance. But proper training wheels should have two or three wheels on the ground, depending on if the rider is balancing or not. In other words, the training wheels should be lifted slightly up: https://www.twowheelingtots.com/training-wheels-faq/

bityard

I have seen kids learn to ride with training wheels. Basically the training wheels are raised relative to the rear wheel and the child learns to balance the bike on the tires, with the training wheels only touching when the bike leans over. But that only teaches them how to balance the bike when riding in a straight line. Not start, turn, or stop.

matsemann

You might have been older, though. So with a balance bike you could've learned to bike years earlier. If you already had mastered balance, learning to bike isn't a big leap.

jugg1es

Training wheels and pull-up diapers are both things that make the problem worse.

pablobaz

If the child had practiced on a balance bike for balance and a tricycle for pedalling it all comes together quite easily.

bambax

> Bicycles achieve balance through the gyroscopic effect, something with angular momentum and physics or whatever

Bicycles achieve balance because the rider counter-steers to prevent the bike from falling aside.

Destin from SmarterEveryDay had a friend build a special bike where the actions of the handlebar are inverted: when you turn it to one direction, the front wheel turns in the other direction.

It's impossible to ride such a bike.

Well, not exactly impossible: you have to completely re-learn riding, like you never knew before. Which shows that steering is the core (only?) skill to riding.

It's a great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

fluoridation

>Bicycles achieve balance because the rider counter-steers to prevent the bike from falling aside.

This is only partially correct. A rider can compensate for road irregularities to keep the bike upright, where an uncontrolled bike would topple over, however an uncontrolled bike is stable when rolling on flat terrain. That there exist bikes that, by making countersteering impossible are unridable, doesn't support the proposition that countersteering is the primary mechanism by which a bike stays upright, it just shows that countersteering can have a much more powerful effect that the dynamics of angular momentum.

nayuki

More on the physics of how bikes work, Derek Muller from Veritasium demonstrated what happens if you lock the steering of a bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac

gorjusborg

> Dustin from SmarterEveryDay

I think his name is Destin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destin_Sandlin

bambax

Thanks! Corrected!

Gigachad

At some point I saw someone put a counter spinning wheel on a bike to negate the gyroscopic effect and they were still able to ride fine. I'm not quite sure how to describe it, but there is something about the geometry of a bike that is sort of self correcting. You can ride a bike without touching the handlebars at all, and you can even steer some amount.

satiric

Here's what I originally typed out before googling:

The "something about the geometry" is called caster, and is the same effect that makes the front casters on a shopping cart go straight: the point where the steering axis intersects the ground is ahead of the contact patch of the tire. On a bike, this is mostly determined by the angle of your head tube when looking at the bike from the side (if the fork is "bent" from the side view, this would also contribute to the caster effect).

But I've now googled, and found a paper that says that a bike can be stable without gyroscopic or caster effects [1]. It seems like the specific mass distribution of the steerable mass (front wheel, fork, handlebars, etc) vs the rest of the frame matters, and of course all of these variables interact in complex ways. They do agree that caster plays an important role though.

Vehicle dynamics is notoriously tricky stuff. I can say with experience that it doesn't get easier when you go to four wheels.

[1]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51051995_A_Bicycle_...

lelanthran

> but there is something about the geometry of a bike that is sort of self correcting.

Yup. Plenty of videos on youtube where they send a bike down a hill with no rider and as long as there is forward motion it will self-correct and stay upright.

Bikes in motion are self-balancing, and with no rider on, will continue indefinitely until the forward momentum has been exhausted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcZCzr9ExKk

antiphase

This is because gyroscopic forces are not significant except at high speed, and most of the forces relevant to cycling and which direction the bicycle goes are generated between the front tire and road surface. Turning the handlebars to change direction is also only relevant at low speed for the same reason.

karmakaze

I saw that SmarterEveryDay video and it's a crazy thing to do but fun to watch.

Terminology: balance is from steering (not counter-steering aka push-steering) which is to get the bike (usually motorcycle) to lean faster which allows taking a corner sharper. To balance upright, one steers the bike in the same direction the bike would naturally steer (as it's falling to one side) by the way the forks are raked/offset.

hi_hi

As a motorcyclist, counter-steering is a very pronounced and useful feature. I've tried employing the same technique on my bicycle and it had no effect. I'd be keen to understand others experiences of countersteering on a bicycle.

balfirevic

Can you clarify what is it exactly that you consider counter-steering?

My understanding is that it means "briefly turning the handle-bars to point the front wheel in the opposite direction of the intended turn, causing the vehicle to start tipping over in the direction of intended turn", which is exactly how you steer both motorcycle and bicycle.

bambax

I too am a motorcyclist (and now, mostly, a cyclist) and think I may have misspoke (steering vs counter-steering).

When I learned to ride a motorcycle I was taught to push the handle bars with the hand on the side I wanted to turn (so, if trying to turn right, push with the right hand); this causes the bike to "fall" on the side of the turn, and follow the turn.

This is what I meant by "counter-steering" but 1/ it only works at relatively high speeds (above, say, 20 mph, which isn't high on a motorcycle, but pretty high on a bike) and 2/ it doesn't "prevent" the bike from falling, it makes it fall, which is what we want.

Following the same principle, staying upright on a bicycle involves steering, not counter-steering: when a bike starts falling to one side, turning the wheel to that side makes it want to fall to the other side; and if done fast enough and often enough (as all riders to), maintain the bike upright.

balfirevic

> This is what I meant by "counter-steering" but 1/ it only works at relatively high speeds (above, say, 20 mph, which isn't high on a motorcycle, but pretty high on a bike)

No, it works at much lower speeds. This guy is not going 20 mph: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Counters...

hi_hi

yes, this is what counter steering means to me too.

_Wintermute

Counter-steering is how bicycles steer, whether you're doing it consciously or not.

dahart

Maybe the description the author found was describing a tendency of a riderless bike to stay upright? Counter-steering is involved there but I’m not sure it’s the most significant bit. That is a good video though!

alentred

Indeed! This is an age-old method, this is what a dandy horse is for! In France, and surely many other places, you see the kids of young age on dandy horses ("draisiennes") coming to and from the school supervised by their parents. As a rite of passage towards the bicycle :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandy_horse

FlyingSnake

Ditto for Germany as well. Most kids get a Puky fahrrad and they are ready to ride a cycle when the time comes.

https://mytoys.scene7.com/is/image/myToys/ext/13468895-01.jp...

seszett

In France and Belgium, Decathlon makes neat bikes with pedals that can be taken off easily and properly (including the cranks) turning them into a "normal" draisienne.

This means the kids can easily try it with pedals on, take them off again if it doesn't work, etc, and it looks less like a "baby bike" (which matters for some kids). I think they're really nice.

echoangle

Yes, I’m surprised that this is apparently something new for Americans. I thought that was a basic kids toy that’s common everywhere, like skipping ropes or slides.

255kb

Both my kids learned on a "draisienne" and they hoped on a regular bike like it was nothing the first day they got it. Kids in the neighborhood who didn't learn on a draisienne, but instead got small wheels, really struggled with balance, and some are still scared to ride their bikes to this day (I'm talking 5-9 years old kids), while my kids are riding with no hands. I don't know if it's enough to see a pattern, but I'm convinced :)

0xEF

These were around in the US back in the day, but known by the name "hobby horse." Relatively few of them survived, but I've seen them in a few collections in my travels, chiefly the Bicycle Museum of America in New Bremen, OH...which I highly recommend visiting if you happen to be passing by. Pretty neat bit of history and I'd love to try and make one with wooden wheels one day.

alistairSH

I'm only surprised that this is news to anybody in 2024/2025.

"Balance bikes" [1] have been the norm for 10-15 years now, at least within the cycling community. You can start kids on them pretty much as soon as they can toddle about.

1 - https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-0vqb0rkahl/images/stencil/19...

mauvehaus

I would posit that the self-identified "cycling community" is about the same percentage of "people who ride bikes" as programmers are of "people who use computers".

We're a long way from everyone who buys their kid a first bike at Walmart knowing about balance bikes (or the cheaper option of taking the pedals off)

teekert

In the US perhaps, where I live the whole cyclists vs non-cyclist thing does not exist. Everybody is a cyclist (perhaps the US is a car community ;)), but generally in normal clothes, on a normal bike (not racing, but like this [0]), with no helmet and on bike lanes where you never meet a car. The smallest bikes (12 inch wheels) are rated 2-4 years old.

[0] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cortina+u1&t=ffab&iax=images&ia=im...

chipsa

It is generally considered unwise, and depending on age or other circumstances, illegal to ride without a bike helmet, in large part because most places you will meet a car, and if you don’t, wiping out at 15mph is still going to be hard on your noggin.

danw1979

not even in the cycling community… At least 15 years ago getting your kid a balance bike in our circle of normal definitely-not-HN-reader friends was the done thing.

Graduation from a balance bike to a slightly larger bike-with-pedals-removed worked great for both my boys. They could pedal and ride a decent distance before they were out of nappies.