Take the Pedals Off the Bike
186 comments
·January 14, 2025z3t4
[delayed]
culebron21
I think the reason you easily learn on this type is that you have much more practice in the same piece of time. On normal bike an error leads to falling, having to restart, which takes half a minute at best. On running bike, you don't fall and continue. Each iteration takes 1-2 seconds.
My 3yo rides this 'running bike' as it's called here, no prob. My training in childhood, on normal one with pedals, was a nightmare.
Earlier I thought of the way to transition from 'running bike' to normal pedal bike, and thought of teaching first to ride while standing on pedals, and only then to sit down. Another comment here, about 'women bikes', confirms this idea.
kazinator
This may be the best path: balance bike -> two-wheeled scooter -> real bike. A scooter is too hard for age 3 because it has no seat; the balance bike lets either foot instantly contact the ground no matter which way the bike is falling. Once the kid starts to coast on the balance bike, introduce a balancing scooter. That's the ideal intermediary. It allows for longer coasting with the free squarely off the ground and on the vehicle: yet offers the psychological safety of always being able to jump off. Scooters also have brakes; the kid can learn the concept of braking. That allows them to coast the scooter down hills with confidence. The main remaining challenge on a bike is starting and to some extent stopping. The way you set a bicycle in motion is scooter-like. You don't sit on it and start pedaling, but rather stand on a pedal and push off with the opposite foot. The scooter teaches this, more or less.
dgacmu
Agree with the point of this post. I'd never heard of balance bikes, and then my wife did some research when we had our first kid and found out about this.
We've now taught both of our kids to bike by starting with a balance bike, and the comparison with their friends who learned with training wheels was amazing - the balance bike kids were zooming around earlier, confidently, and with many fewer spills than the training wheel cohort.
Also, you can get a balance bike with a handbrake, which sets them up well for getting a bike with handbrakes instead of coaster brakes. Kids bikes in the US have to be sold with coasters but there are several manufacturers (like woom) who make it really easy to remove the coaster and have front and rear hand brakes.
Also also, most kids bikes in the US are too heavy: they're tough and cheap but it makes it hard to control them. Woom and Isla and probably a few others now make aluminum frame bikes for kids that are much more appropriate weight for their sizes, though at a bit of a cost.
sudobash1
I remember coaster brakes fondly. As an American kid, all of my bikes had them. What was great about them was that you can engage them so suddenly and forcefully that you instantly lock the rear wheel. If you did that on wet asphalt at high speed and jerk the bike just right, you could spin the bike around 180 degrees or more. It was a great day when I (accidentally) found that out. You can also do that somewhat on dry pavement, but your rear wheel is going to have a reduced lifespan.
I think that coaster breaks (and maybe steel frames) are better suited to kids who want to be rough with their bike. My wheels were never very true, and they would have rubbed awfully with rim breaks. (Disk breaks were unheard of on kids bikes then, and I think are still pretty rare now.) The main downside is that if you loose the chain, you loose all breaking power. That happened once to me, but thankfully there was a nice dirt ditch close at hand.
usefulcat
You can definitely lock up the rear wheel with hand brakes. Still happens to me semi-regularly purely by accident when I have to stop suddenly.
hodgesrm
You can even do 360s with coaster brakes. We wore out many tires at the park down the road from my house. It had a gentle slope that got you up to the perfect speed for coaster break fun on the smooth asphalt entrance road.
fnfjfk
You could technically footjam, just need to show the kids enough BMX or fixed gear videos first...
dgacmu
It's very true! (about locking the wheel with coaster breaks)
I broke my jaw this way when I was 6 or 7. :-) Tried to do a 90 degree skid going down a steep alley and did an endo, landing on my chin. Do not recommend.
I mean, I probably would have broken some bones anyway with the way I biked at that age, but this particular one might not have happened without the coaster breaks.
We haven't quite gotten to that stage with my 7yo yet. 12yo wasn't too rough on her bike but 7yo is, um, er, let's say he doesn't have the wisdom of being older yet.
lelanthran
> We've now taught both of our kids to bike by starting with a balance bike,
I looked at the balance bike, thought "what a waste of money" and told my kid "just scoot up and down this level pathway while I fix the pool pump. don't worry about pedaling." and 5 minutes into the pump repair he was balancing just fine.
I'm not buying a toy that gets used for 5 minutes only. Whether I can afford it or not is irrelevant.
pastage
A balance bike is a way of transportation for kids, they can use balance bikes for a long time before they are comfortable with biking with pedals. We are talking years with a balance bike and then there is an overlap where they prefer the balance bike.
It is also alot more light weight than a normal bike so it is actually better for you and the kid. I transported a kid and a balance bike easily on a normal bike for more than 20 km, they managed about 10 km on their own.
lelanthran
> We are talking years with a balance bike and then there is an overlap where they prefer the balance bike.
Let me clarify - I'm not saying you can't continue using it for years after.
I'm saying there is no point to continuing using it once the kids has developed their balance. That development typically takes only a few dozen minutes, at most.
As an analogy, consider reading. Your kid can, after learning to read, continue reading the level-1 (Fun With Dick And Jane type) books for years, but why would you encourage that?
benhurmarcel
Usually people get balance bikes for kids that are too small for a normal bike, so they use it for some time before they get tall enough to change (around a year or 2).
throwaway2037
Balance bikes are all the rage in Tokyo. I have heard from parents that their kid learned to ride a regular bike in a day or two after pushing around a balancing bike for a couple of years. We agreed that learning to ride a regular bike a kid (without first using a balance bike) was tough!
ccppurcell
I have a stepson. We had a balance bike for him; one of his weekends with his dad, his dad got him a bike and he pretty much just started cycling immediately. We bought a bike and he barely needed help. It was pretty remarkable.
cameron_b
The ins and outs of that coaster brake rule provide a lot of wiggle room. My kids started on balance bikes and have moved up to a 12" and 24" ( wheel size ) from Cleary with hand brakes. They missed the regression of coaster brakes and training wheels. Geometry for kids bikes mainly comes down to the scale of the cranks. Small cranks are needed to lower the foot position and center of gravity enough to be 'in scale' with how we tend to consider bike geometry to work, but the shorter cranks also limit the suitability to a shorter leg length, so my kids' Cleary Gecko is pretty small on my 4yo, but she's ridden it for two years.
Small kids need smaller components, but it's hard to make small components reliable and cost effective. I really appreciate the folks who took the time to translate the same darn brake levers used all over the world to a size suitable for a 2 year old's hand. They're the cutest thing and they're the first thing I had to teach my son how to use after he was cooking it down hills on the balance bike. They get banged up first on a fall, they get merciless treatment, and they perform the same way I expect mine or any other to perform.
yojo
Isla discontinued selling in the US. Frog is another UK company that makes cheap and light. Also look at Prevelo or Cleary (slightly heavier). These bikes all hold up well, other than replacing tires and occasionally brake pads.
They also hold value well. I’ve been buying/selling used kids bikes on FB as my kids outgrow them, and so far been averaging about $15/year to keep my kids on primo bikes.
mattclarkdotnet
Wait what? “Kids bikes in the US have to be sold with coaster brakes”. Is that true?
mc3301
Yeah, Seth from Berm Peak did a great youtube video about it.
mattclarkdotnet
Oh good god can we not reference random videos by name? If there’s a point to be made then make it and reference the video as a source. I will not do your work for you
throwaway01151
This is exactly how I teach people to drive stick, and they’ll learn within 30 minutes. Put them on an empty road with a downward slope. The car will roll on its own, without them having to use the gas pedal. Then they can just practice switching into first without the risk of stalling. After a few times integrate using the gas pedal.
lelanthran
> This is exactly how I teach people to drive stick, and they’ll learn within 30 minutes. Put them on an empty road with a downward slope. T
I do it exactly the other way: put them on an empty road with a slight uphill.
With the parking brake on, let them practice getting a feel for when the clutch "bites". When it does, put the parking brake down and the car remains stationary.
Do that a few times (10m, or less) and the learner develops an intuition all by themselves for how the clutch pedal works (there's some travel until it "bites", the expected type of progression of the pedal, etc).
Can't teach that when they learn to use it like a button (which is what happens when they learn to change with the car in motion).
esaym
Weird. It didn't click for me until I had to stop on a hill and then go up it. And that is how I taught a few friends (after a few flat street trials)
alexjplant
I've had success with getting people to do a clutch-only start then stop several times over. Once they get a feel for the engagement zone and realize that they can speed up the process by applying gas somewhere around it then it's all (metaphorically) downhill from there.
This is how I taught myself how after having multiple people tell me things like "it's just a continuous motion you do with both legs", "you just let the other pedal out while you give it gas", etc. Driving a manual seems to be one of those things that few people seem to be good at teaching because they forget how frustrating it can be to learn.
left-struck
Oh man yeah the advice about continuous motion is not right. A clutch is a torque control device, in the case of a car it’s more like a torque limiting device. The more you let the pedal out the more torque you allow the engine to apply to the wheels up until the point where the torque you allow exceeds the engine’s available torque at a given rpm and throttle position. So if you’re constantly letting the clutch out you’re ramping up the torque limit linearly but the engine speed and wheel speed don’t match and if the engine speed is low of course the engine can easily stall.
Instead what you want to do, what most people do subconsciously is let the clutch out partially until it is allowing the engine to apply some of its available torque but not all, and then pause there until the car’s speed roughly matches the engine speed, at which point the clutch will stop slipping even though you still have the pedal partially depressed, after which you should be able to rapidly raise your foot from the clutch and feel no acceleration or deceleration. For an experienced driver that pause is less than like half a second from standstill. Also technically the point at which you want to pause the clutch let out depends on a whole bunch of things like how quickly you want to pull off, how much torque the engine can provide and whether you’re on a hill etc, but we just do this intuitively with experience.
This is like a super over-complicated way to think about it and I would never try to teach a learner driver by first explaining this lol but the point is, you find the engagement point and hold there for a while and then release when the car is moving. This is what we all do but it helps to understand why we do it so we don’t explain things wrong.
I feel like people also don’t get what applying more throttle does while the clutch is slipping. All it does is raise the engine rpm, it will apply absolutely no more torque (and therefore acceleration) no matter how much you press down the throttle. While the clutch is slipping the clutch pedal controls your torque and therefore acceleration. You need some throttle though to give you some room for error and some minimum torque to work with.
Nition
The funny thing is when I first started learning to drive, it seemed impossible to get right without stalling or bunny-hopping or something else going wrong. Yet now after years of driving it feels like there's a huge window of acceptable throttle and clutch. Apply tons or throttle or hardly any. Release the clutch carefully or quickly. Car always starts great. There must be so much muscle memory magic to it. I don't think I could bunny-hop the car anymore if I tried.
usefulcat
When I taught my sister how to drive a standard, the one sentence description that I gave her (that she still remembers today) was "before you do anything, push in the clutch".
brailsafe
This is exactly what it reminded me of. My dad taught me by setting me up on a flat surface (parking lot) and getting me to try and find the sweet spot where I could press on the gas a little. As in "let off the clutch a bit and press on the gas" with a bunch of ambiguity in the middle; how much should I do of either, why? When I was teaching my gf, I quickly realized this made no sense at all, and did exactly as you described. It didn't completely alleviate the stress, and I feel a bit bad that I put her through it, but just feathering the clutch is a massively better way to get a feel for it.
foobarian
Wonder if you could do it with the front of the car jacked up.
grogenaut
I couldn't figure it out even with this. Then my friend explained how a clutch worked and I started it on the first try. And I had been driving a tractor for years. But a tractor is a different torquey beast.
throwaway2037
Someone recently told me that petrol and diesel engines with manual transmission feel very different. He told me that driving his dad's manual transmission diesel engine was easier because the clutch was "more forgiving". I cannot driving manual, so I have no idea about it. My guess: That tractor is diesel.
janderson215
Thanks, gonna try this with my neighbors car!
taneq
Interesting… I learned exactly the opposite way and I’d argue it was easier. Feet on clutch and brake. Start the engine. Get used to the feeling. Gear stick into first. Back to neutral. Give it a wiggle, that’s how you know you’re in neutral. Practice changing from neutral to first and back. Foot off the brake, practice holding the engine at 1k, 1.5k, 2k rpm.
Talk through the next bit first: Hold engine at 1.5k rpm. Ease off clutch just enough to start engaging and rolling forwards. Back on the clutch then gently break to a stop. Repeat until confident.
Etc. etc. The whole time the learner is in control of the car and they learn the basics without having to worry about steering.
brailsafe
I think this is basically the same thing, just with the other steps included. On the right surface in first gear you don't need the brake, so just controlling the clutch is enough to move the car
stuaxo
Really small kids get balance bikes these days, that come without pedals then at about age 3 or 4 you can go to a bike with pedals and no stabilisers are needed.
At least that's how it is in London for the last few years, while my kid was learning.
bluesmoon
It's like the author has never heard of balance bikes, but they're very common, and have been for over a decade. FWIW, I taught my kid to ride when he was 3 by putting him at the top of a wheelchair ramp and letting him go. Took him 5 seconds, and he was riding around the park by himself by the second attempt. He'd never been on a bike before.
Suppafly
>It's like the author has never heard of balance bikes, but they're very common, and have been for over a decade.
Every time a post like this comes up a bunch people haven't heard of them. I'm sure it helps, especially with really little kids, but honestly kids learn to ride bikes pretty easy once they decide they want to really learn regardless of pedals or not.
danieldk
This. Here (NL) where pretty much everyone can bike and a substantial portion of the population goes to work/groceries/etc. by bike, most kinds start with what we call a 'walking bike' (pretty much the same as a balance bike). Most kids are already pretty fast on them before switching to a bike with pedals.
It's also often recommended not to use training wheels. Just go balance bike -> pedal pike.
hi_hi
Balancing is the easy part. Progressing from stand still, to pedalling, while maintaining balance proved much harder (for my child). However, once mastered, the transition to confident rider was fast, I'm sure mostly thanks to having started on a balance bike early, and never having an interest in those scooters that every other kid seems to love (seemingly at the expense of learning to ride a proper bike)
SV_BubbleTime
Strider bikes. And yes, they are amazing. Ours was 2.5 and she insisted she was ready for a big kid bike. Was peddling that afternoon although couldn’t start alone yet.
Training wheels should be mocked off the market.
Tor3
That article is weird, for me at least. I very clearly remember when a bunch of kids around the age of six and seven learned to bike, all at the same time. All it took was a woman's bicycle, the old type (I should say "very old" type at this point), easy for kids. The kids had to stand up, not sit (too big bicycle), and all it took was a single run with someone holding the seat, and letting go after a short while. That was it. No further training required. And that was indeed how I myself learned to bike as well, when I was a kid. Training wheels didn't exist, and are in my opinion pointless unless you want your three year old "bike". For older children it actively does harm.
vbarrielle
Both my kids were able to use the bike at 3 years old. The training wheels should not be used even this young. They first learned using a balance bike, and then learning to pedal went very smoothly using the same technique you mentioned.
kazinator
The pedal-free-bike (velociped), though, works for three-year-olds and maybe even younger who are too young to learn to ride.
raverbashing
The fact that it worked for you doesn't mean it works for most people
Also the people that are 'good with bikes' are the absolute dog shit at teaching other people how to do it. In fact I consider every advice from them with the maximum caution possible, because it is, a lot of times, actually harmful
mroset
My daughter started using a balance bike around 18 months. By the time she was 2.5, she zoomed around on it and had started asking about pedals. We got her a pedal bike two months before she turned 3, with the expectation that we might have to take the pedals off for a few more months. Instead, within a few days (maybe 2 total hours of practice?) she was riding confidently and totally by herself--at not quite 3 years old.
It's so different than the challenging, scary attempts to remove training wheels when my siblings and I were 5 or 6 years old. One of those things where I didn't realize the science and tradition on teaching kids to ride bikes could change so dramatically within two decades!
throwaway2037
Wow, what a story. You daughter was riding a regular bike before three. Is she physically talented in other ways? That seems exceptional!
scraplab
All three of my kids were riding full bikes around 3 years old, having used a balance bike for 12-18 months previous. I don’t think my kids are exceptional - balance bikes work wonders!
bityard
Training wheels are terrible. Both of my kids learned how to ride on balance bikes, basically in under a day. When switching to pedal power, there IS a transition period where learning how to pedal AND balance at the same time is challenge. But it's a lot shorter and less frustrating than trying to learn how to pedal AND balance at the same time.
pablobaz
If the child had practiced on a balance bike for balance and a tricycle for pedalling it all comes together quite easily.
johnmaguire
I hear this sentiment all the time. But as a kid, I first rode a bike with training wheels. The day my dad removed them, I went outside before him, hopped on the bike, and just started riding. There was no "learning to balance" or drama. I remember my parents were surprised but... maybe training wheels aren't so bad for everyone?
One thing I think gets lost in the discussion of training wheels: people act like you have four wheels flat on the ground, with no opportunity to balance. But proper training wheels should have two or three wheels on the ground, depending on if the rider is balancing or not. In other words, the training wheels should be lifted slightly up: https://www.twowheelingtots.com/training-wheels-faq/
bityard
I have seen kids learn to ride with training wheels. Basically the training wheels are raised relative to the rear wheel and the child learns to balance the bike on the tires, with the training wheels only touching when the bike leans over. But that only teaches them how to balance the bike when riding in a straight line. Not start, turn, or stop.
bunderbunder
Agreed. We didn't get onto the balance bike tip until my older kid was a little older, but my younger one started on their older sibling's balance bike as more-or-less a toddler and was riding a bike with pedals by age 4. With basically zero frustration.
Watching peers of theirs who used training wheels, I've realized they're a trap. The mechanics of how a bike actually steers are completely different when you put training wheels on it. Whenever a third wheel is touching the ground (something that seems to be hard to avoid while turning, from what I've seen) it starts to steer like a trike instead of a bicycle. So transitioning from that to riding without training wheels is doubly difficult, because you also have to un-learn the instincts and muscle memory you developed with training wheels.
Transitioning from a balance bike to one with pedals is much easier because the main instinct they'll be taking from it - putting a foot on the ground when you get into trouble - remains useful. It naturally helps prevent skinned knees during the transition period.
merlynkline
Exactly this. The article has the right conclusion but invents a nonsense explanation. The truth is that bicycles counter-steer at any reasonable rolling speed - to go right, you nudge the steering to the left, which causes the bike to start falling to the right and then steer into that fall. People often find this hard to believe, even experienced riders, but it is easily tested. The problem is that training wheels turn a bicycle into a tricycle, which steers in the opposite way - to go right you steer to the right. So kids learn that and then you take the training wheels off and the first attempt to steer immediately causes a nasty fall because of steering the wrong way. I made this mistake teaching my first to ride, and she hurt herself and never really liked bikes after that. Seeing it happen, I had an epiphany (eventually) and just took the pedals off that bike for my second, who had the experience described elsewhere in this thread and loved bikes thereafter.
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jugg1es
Training wheels and pull-up diapers are both things that make the problem worse.
tartoran
I've taught 5 kids to ride bikes this year. The method is quite simple and takes only a few minutes and some light jogging behind them. Take a scarf or a rope (or anything really) around a child's chest and behind the armpits pulling both ends behind the bike. Have the kid pedal the bike while providing balance for the bike to stay upright, this is the jogging part. The kid will inadvertently attempt to fall on a side so hold tight to provide balance and tell them to pedal faster. As soon as they realize that while pedaling and turning does not cause them to fall it clicks for them. Provide a little balance for the first turns. I usually do this for a few minutes and then let go of the scarf/straps/rope without telling the kid as they'll continue riding with no help. Before long they're riding around happily. And then a bit later there's a milestone, the first fall.
The pedalless bikes aren't as effective. One of the kids I sued this technique with used to have a pedalless bike and was fine with it for a year but could not handle a bicycle at all. This is how I remember learning to bike from my own dad when I was probably around 5-6.
bredren
Our kid started riding a pedal bike on their own at 3 years, 3 months thanks to the sheet method.
We started on an indoor bike-like ride along, thing.
Then a balance bike outside, then a small kids bike with no pedals, then pedals with freewheel, (no coaster brake) but two hand brakes and the sheet.
I used a muslin baby blanket for the sheet.
We did not take the support away suddenly at any time though.
We jogged with them a lot, constantly ready to catch her. I did, a handful of times save her from wrecks. This took a fair amount of athleticism, attention and reflexes.
But it also allowed us to talk about core bike safety and new nuances like “watching your white circles” (the handle bar ends were white) and make sure not to let them touch anything while riding.
Our kid got really comfortable pedaling and toward the end of the sheet use, I mostly just let it hang jogging along. It was the sense of security that allowed plenty of practice in advance of going without.
One day they just picked up their bike and started riding across the playground. Plenty of miles since then no wrecks yet.
We were not going for precociousness, but it was really great to get it down so young. I can ride my old coaster bike alongside when it’s dry, and we’ve done night rides.
We did not push any step of it, but did have the next bike available to them to see and look at and talk about. It was very smooth, I wish something like this process was available when I was a kid.
david-gpu
> The pedalless bikes aren't as effective.
I taught my two kids to ride a pedal bike when they were three, after enjoying their balance bike for like six months before that. The switch from balance bike to pedaling was very simple, and because they had enjoyed their balance bike for so long, they were very skilled at staying upright.
I'm not saying your method was bad. I'm saying that there's more than one way to skin a cat.
sonofhans
One big benefit of coaster bikes is that they’re entirely under the kid’s control. Your method works, but only with you attached. I’d rather empower kids to learn on their own.
Coaster bikes also teach kids to dab instinctively, which is a great skill.
toast0
> Coaster bikes also teach kids to dab instinctively, which is a great skill.
what does dab mean to you? my meanings don't fit in this sentence.
elbasti
My daughter—who is not at all coordinated-learned how to ride a bike with this technique.
Holy smokes it works. She learned how to ride in maybe 10 minutes. Tops.
Incredible.
I taught my son to ride using training wheels. He rode around for a few days and asked me to take them off. So, I took them off. And when I came back outside from putting the tools and training wheels away, he was riding his bike as if he'd never not ridden it. I do like the author's idea however.
By the way, did you know that the the right pedal is right hand thread, but the left pedal is left handed thread? If it wasn't, the left pedal, being right hand threaded, would come loose easily. And that was a Wright Brothers innovation.