Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

I justified the lightning purchase to my partner by pointing out having an equivalent whole house battery backup in Tesla power walls would be more expensive than the truck

I don't think so, not like it was once upon a time. I had a manual 6-cylinder I bought in about 2002 for around $14000, no leather, 2wd extended cab. That's like $25k in today's dollars according to Google. If they made a basic truck for even $40k as EV it might sell a lot better, but I am pretty sure they are all about selling 60k+ trucks for profit.

The F-150 Lightning Pro trim is the closest thing to this, and aside from the first year generally has only sold to fleets.

Theres also the Chevy Silverado EV WT trim which is a similar base model trim, but with the huge heavy battery its paired with it's still an expensive truck.

When I was a kid, my dad owned a pickup truck in Mississippi, and there seem to be tons of ways of avoiding getting the groceries wet, a bed-width toolbox behind the cab was the simplest way (and this was way before extended cabs were a thing).

If you are living in such an area where they can't even figure that kind of thing out, it sounds like there might be something in the water.

Crew cabs, truck boxes, tonneau covers etc exist.

I drive a 2017 F150 with the back commonly filled with either sports equipment or outdoors gear, or photography equipment. I would like to additionally have a city car but am not willing to spend the money (or consume another parking space in front of my house). Since I only have one vehicle, I do also use it for grocery shopping.

We have a f150 raptor and a rivian and a model 3. I drive the gas truck and the model 3. Depends on the weather. Truck is an amazing road tripper. We are not the typical customer, but we do exist.

This is anecdotal but I have a gas F-150 that is often a grocery getter (I work from home and take a motorcycle when I can so gas mileage for me isn’t as big a concern as for some) and I would gladly trade it for an electric or a hybrid version (one that does not have the gas motor do anything but charge the batteries). But the cost was absolutely asinine for the Lightning. These trucks were made from unobtainium.

But I would also trade this truck for an all electric or mostly electric Maverick as long as it had enough cabin space for my needs (children).

They are suggesting that most F-150s are not purchased for real truck work like hauling stuff. Instead, they are purchased by people who use them exclusively to drive on paved roads, in towns/cities, mostly carrying passengers instead of large cargo. Therefore the concern about going off-road to remote locations isn't a real concern for this market.

The Silverado EV does have a big battery, but for actual real world use you’re keeping it within a band of about 60% (20-80) so 400 is really 240 with an emergency reserve. (This is common to all EVs).

You lose about half your range towing so you’re still going to drive two hours, stop for 30-45 minutes, repeat.

So it’s still far from compelling for anyone towing or doing truck stuff.

It’s a really bad consumer market right now, and also, we have enough cars.

> A good old ICE car will be cheaper to make than an EV

How much of that is the result of the relatively maturity of the technology? We've been continuously improving ICE based transportation for well over a hundred years. It's been a lot shorter for electric vehicles.

I suspect that there are bigger strides to make with electrics that may eventually turn that around.

China EVs are cheaper than ICE cars.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/why-evs-are-now-cheaper-tha...

I don't understand this comparison. An EV's battery cooling system is a cooling system. Regen braking isn't more complicated than an alternator.

The rest, yeah. The chemical stacks in the batteries are expensive, and dealer markup was a problem (now they're 47-56k new). But the energy costs! $7-12 for a fill-up on home power overnight instead of $75-85 at the gas station.

And maintenance. So little maintenance. For local non-towing fleets these would save a lot.

the reason we know American car makers other than Tesla aren't serious about electric cars is that they haven't been making battery factories.

Citation needed

This sound like every EVangalist who says road trips aren’t important when most everyone takes at least one a year.

They’re also a major investor in Rivian so there’s some circularity in that phenomenon.

Most of the Amazon delivery trucks I see are big trucks with Ryder on the side or electric cargo bikes with Prime on the side.

This is in Manhattan mostly below 60th St. though, that might be the difference?

they save amazon a ton of money. urban circular delivery circuits and stop-start braking make it brutal for gas and perfect for EVs.

There are loads of Rivian in southwest Montana. No idea why. Way way more than Teslas.

Yeah but the R1S is a better pavement princess anyway, and that does sell well.

I guess Mach-E beats even the R1S but they're not really the same kind of car. Ioniq 5 beats Mach E in CA, as does the MY.

The interior of the pro model is identical to an ICE F150. The only part which breaks with any regularity is shared with ICE F150s, in fact. The only interior difference I can think of on any trim of Lightning is the big screen on higher models. But it's the same underlying SYNC system as every other F150, no magic there.

It has breakable expensive headlights and taillights, that is for sure. But so do ICE F150s...

Yeah, that's definitely a no-go. I think you'd see that with any new model, however. I once had a Ducati in the shop for 4-5 months just waiting on a wheel because it was a new model.

Parts availability is not a problem for established manufacturers, especially mass market vehicles.

I mean, what do we expect from this brainless company that promised a $20k Maverick and let the stealerships mark it up to over $40k?

> people just love them as a symbol

This is an unfortunate trope that is oft repeated by those that live their life in constant upgrade cycles.

The regular F-150 is a pinnacle of value engineering for Ford. It's infinitely repairable for owners. Look around on the highway, you will see hundreds of 15+ year old F150s on the road, and a few times a day I will see 25+ year old trucks on the road too. There are thousands of aftermarket parts for repair or customization. Owners are happy with them, and they recognize the truck as something they buy once and keep for a long time.

If it is any kind of expression of self, its one of "I don't need to be consumeristic; I picked something simple that will last a lifetime."

The F-150 is valued because it is utilitarian and the platform is engineered for a pretty abusive duty cycle. Ford understands this. If you use trucks in anger, you start to appreciate this.

The entry of Japanese automakers into the F-150 market is instructive. While the Japanese trucks looked similar, the early versions had a bad reputation for slowly coming apart under the typical workload and stresses people put on the F-150, which Ford had been refining for many decades. Those trucks often get used hard, and because people know an F-150 can take it they aren't afraid to use them hard. The median abuse significantly exceeded what the Japanese engineers anticipated. Japanese trucks are much better now but the attention to survivability is a big part of the F-150's enduring reputation.

I've taken the Ford platform through situations where I've seen many other vehicles get destroyed. That's where the loyalty comes from and why it is a default choice for many. Most people aren't using them as hard as I have but it does provide a safety blanket.

Not just emissions taxes, small businesses are incentivized to overbuy and get a bigger truck. GWVR>6,000lbs and a full bed gets a better first year tax benefit.

Ford actually makes a highly practical electric work vehicle. It's called E-Transit.

While ICE vehicles need gas/diesel specifically to run, EVs can be charged from a variety of sources, including a diesel generator. Electricity is the great unifier. You could pedal a bike to make some electricity, but no amount of pedaling will create fossil fuels.

“ in case of emergency is you can have a couple of filled jerrycans around so you can always move if needed”

How many times has this been a problem for you?

There really is always going to be something. shrug

Their wikipedia page says they announced “a partnership with RepairPal, a network of certified auto repair shops and dealerships across the US, to give owners access to 4000 service points from day one”. I don’t know if a “service point” is the same as a mechanic shop though.

Have they even given anyone a test drive or shown anything other than that single press car at all their events? Im starting to get worried that as we approach release expectations may fall flat. I am tired of all the youtuber just sitting in the truck and repeating the same press release.

They seem like Framework for cars. Am also following closely.

I want a BYD that costs less than a 2000 Camry did brand new in 2000.

EVs are inherently pretty simple machines. All the complexity is in the battery, and China’s crushing everyone at battery tech. It’s not even close. It’s like a human trying to beat a polar bear in hand to hand combat.

They really need to deregulate the auto industry and let us buy the Yugos with a Jetsons battery. America is a poor country now. Nobody can afford used cars in this economy, never mind new ones.

> literally-costs-more-than-I-paid-for-my-house F-150 Lightning

I'm on board for a house that cost less than 50K.

Ok, where are houses going for 60k? I need to know this secret.

New person to the conversation: I just want to say that even if the CEO's politics weren't awful I would never want a Tesla. I don't want a touchscreen to adjust the direction of the AC. Audio, climate and basic media functions should all have tactile control.

Tesla is to blame for my parents thinking EV = complicated iPad on wheels. An electric drivetrain doesn't have to come with a touchscreen UI for everything.

So, I haven't driven a Ford EV for any significant amount of time so can't comment on the "navigating via chargers" part, but I'd take Ford's non-EV infotainment system over Tesla's system. Ford's is obnoxiously laggy, basically just above the bar of that I'd consider a shippable product, but Tesla's touchscreen for things that should be buttons is awful, and the lack of Android Auto/Carplay is crippling.

And tangential to the infotainment system, Tesla dropping sat radio receivers is pretty annoying if you're frequently outside of cell service.

The Rivian has pretty limited range. The Scout looks promising though.

People out in the ranch country, oil patch, some mining areas, etc often want a reliable 600-ish miles unloaded. That’s why extended fuel tanks are a common option. Even without an extended fuel tank, you can often achieve that with an ICE and a jerry can.

EVs have great potential as 4WD off-road vehicles. In a lot of ways they are more naturally suited to it. Their main weakness is range and loiter time. In many contexts it will be days before you’ll be able to get to a charging point.

The killer feature of ICE in this context is the tremendous range and simplicity of extending range if you need more. Fuel is very compact, easy to bring with you, and available from other vehicles if you run short. An EV that can augment its range indefinitely with fuel is probably the sweet spot.

I think we’ll get there relatively soon.

It's funny because when I saw the Slate, I thought it was cool, but the bed was a bit too short to camp in. And there was a large front trunk, a little too large I thought. If only they could take a bit off the front, and put it in the back.

And then I saw the Telo! Hah, they went too far in the opposite direction. Something between these two is what I'd like.

I wish they sold the Polo in the US.

These two interiors look dang near the same. One has a faux stick shifter versus a dial. Big deal. You could randomize which was the EV and which was the ICE and I'd have no clue.

Just speculation but maybe the fact the world is in an oil glut right now and with the prospect that Russian oil could re-enter global market causing even more glut caused Ford to believe that gasoline will remain fairly cheap compared to 2008 era for the next decade.

Not really. The Pro was about that, maybe a couple grand more, but I don't think it was ever 39K.

> Do people load their Transits with piles of dirt and mulch? I doubt it.

I am from the UK but live in Canada. I only see three types of businesses using those Transit style vans here in North America: food delivery, parcel delivery and landscaping businesses. I assume the landscapers are carrying dirt at least some of the time.

The Tacoma has an extended bed version that is on the smaller end of pickups.

Point of order: dirt goes in your dump trailer, hauled of course by your truck.

Ford themselves has the eTransit, and I guess it is mildly popular in a certain segment.

>> "VW electric van but that's more of a gimmick than anything else."

Really? ... I'm seeing them adopted more widely in Europe now by businesses. Perhaps as second hand or lease prices are coming down. Maybe that doesn't translate to the US ...

Quite nostalgic seeing them run around Central London with business signs on their side... much like the originals. My point: not a gimmick in my experience.

On the flip side, as a van owner (though not a professional "working van") ...

1. you don't need straps and bungees for the van - ours can take pipework, framing lumber and other "long" stuff up to 16', straight on the floor, fully interior.

2. you don't need the gate down - it handles 4x8' sheet goods with all the doors closed, either vertical or horizontal

3. security concerns are much better

4. weather concerns are much better

5. for some folks, you can have highly effective work space inside the van (granted, I've seen some loose equivalents on custom work trucks)

6. mileage is generally significantly better

From my POV, the two wins of the truck form factor are (a) easy of loading/unloading bulk material (e.g. the van is 100% useless for gravel) (b) tall loads. That said, I don't think I've ever need to move anything that was too tall for our Sprinter - worst comes to worst, it gets laid down.

Your linked article does say Rivian ranked first in satisfaction, which does support the GP’s “rabidly loyal.”

From your first fender-bender link: “So a $42,000 rear bumper replacement seems exorbitant, but Apfelstadt says he’s happy with his truck.”

From what I understand, many of these jacked-up compensator trucks cost a similar amount.

I remember when pickups were considerably cheaper than cars, but no more.

I agree EREVs make a lot of sense, electric first but not requiring a full commitment, especially for a truck that sometimes has to do things like towing.

https://insideevs.com/news/777407/scout-motors-erev-reservas...

I'm sure this wasn't lost on Ford, 80% of Scout reservations come with the EREV and only 20% BEV.

Maybe one day they will have enough volume in the segment to justify making the pure BEV version again but with parts sharing with the EREV. An advantage to EREV design is that if done smartly you can offer the same vehicle stripped down and BOOM you have a BEV too.

I think the term of art in the automotive space so far has been "series hybrid". But like you said, the differentiation here may just be the size of the battery. Series hybrids are still predominantly driven by fossil fuels, even if the drive is an EV drivetrain, due to the battery mainly acting as an energy buffer.

The absolute sweet spot, as someone from a country with long long distances, is a plugin series hybrid that has ~150-300km EV range and a ~60 litre fuel tank. That's getting me to work entirely electric, and then once a month when I need to see family I can chew down the fossil fuels.

EREV is different from diesel-electric in that the EREV has a large battery whereas the diesel-electric locomotive does not. But the "ICE engine drives a generator which drives a motor" philosophy is similar in spirit.

I wonder about the specs though.

I recall the bmw serial hybrid was called a range extender, because the gas motor couldn't actually put out enough energy to drive the vehicle on the freeway.

So basically it was an EV with a small +xx mile extra range from the gas engine.

so no "ice for road trips", more like "ice for an additional +xx miles" then you need to recharge.

In comparison the chevy volt had a better hybrid design (not a serial hybrid) and you could drive it on gasoline only.

is there any good comparison of Hybrid vs EREV efficiency (when main battery is depleted), even with Atkinson cycle ICE for EREV? my understanding was that the main reason for all this complexity in Hybrids was due direct-to-wheel power transfer efficiency, while in EREV there's efficiency loss when converting ICE output to electric current...

I guess you’d call my Chrysler Pacifica an “EREV” then.

It’s honestly perfect for us. 32 miles on a charge, we barely touch the gas except for the winter when it’s so cold out we need the engine to warm us up. Any other time and the battery is all we need, and it charges overnight on a simple 110V wall outlet. Long trips are still possible, you just drive. We go through maybe 8 tanks of gas per year with our occasional long trips (compared to having to stop at a charging station for an hour, I’ll take it.)

I think it's still simpler, actually. IME the most complicated part of an ICE vehicle is the power delivery system. Transmissions are nightmares to work on. Making that all-electric and just using an engine to generate power significantly simplifies the system. I'm not a mechanic though, so take my word with a grain of salt.

The biggest loss in the EREV in my opinion will be (I assume) the frunk. That has turned out very handy on multiple occasions.

Yeah, I was being a bit glib about that part.

IMO, the biggest perk is dependent on the ability to charge at home. If you can, then the price per mile is about half (if Google is right that California rates are about $0.30/kWh) or less than for an ICE. But even if the $/mile were equal, never needing to visit a gas station again is itself the biggest perk.

And sure there are people for whom an EV won't meet their range needs, but probably way fewer than think that's the case for them.

Charge at home, that’s the whole point. My F150 lightning costs about $14 in electric charges a month for about 600 miles on average.

Yeah this is an outdated talking point, because people can’t accept how far ahead Chinese auto are. They now just have a more advanced, innovative & competitive auto industry, with little subsidies.

Don't like posting a long comment, but re-posting a high-level chronological view of the problems past 15 years:

1) forced technology transfer/IP theft -- all foreign automakers/EV battery producers forced to give up IP to access China's market (and subsidies). This was litigated before the WTO by the EU in 2018 (see WT/DS549):

  Hybrid in a Trade Squeeze, Keith Bradsher, Sept 5, 2011, NYT

  ... The Chinese government is refusing to let the Volt qualify for subsidies totaling up to $19,300 a car unless G.M. agrees to transfer the engineering secrets for one of the Volt’s three main technologies to a joint venture in China with a Chinese automaker, G.M. officials said.

  Power Play, Trefor Moss, May 17, 2018, WSJ

  ... China requires auto makers to use batteries from one of its approved suppliers if they want to be cleared to mass-produce electric cars and plug-in hybrids and to qualify for subsidies. These suppliers are all Chinese, so such global leaders as South Korea’s LG Chem Ltd and Japan’s Panasonic Corp. are excluded.
  ... Foreign batteries aren’t officially banned in China, but auto executives say that since 2016 they have been warned by government officials that they must use Chinese batteries in their China-built cars, or face repercussions. That has forced them to spend millions of dollars to redesign cars to work with inferior Chinese batteries, they say.
  ... “We want to comply, and we have to comply,” said one executive with a foreign car maker. “There’s no other option.”

  Why a Chinese Company Dominates Electric Car Batteries. Keith Bradsher and Michael Forsythe, Dec 22, 2021, NYT

  The government soon said electric car buyers could get subsidies only if the battery was made by a Chinese company. G.M., which had not been notified of the rule, started shipping Buick Velite electric cars in 2016 with batteries made in China by LG, a South Korean company.
  Angry consumers and dealers complained that local officials were denying them subsidies, people familiar with the episode said. G.M. switched heavily to CATL for the huge Chinese market.

  Why a Chinese Company Dominates Electric Car Batteries.  Keith Bradsher and Michael Forsythe, Dec 22, 2021, NYT

  ... A rival had released a video suggesting that a technology used by the company, CATL, and other manufacturers could cause car fires. Imitating a Chinese government safety test, the rival had driven a nail through a battery cell, one of many in a typical electric car battery. The cell exploded in a fireball.
  Chinese officials took swift action — by dropping the nail test, according to documents reviewed by The New York Times. The new regulation, released two months later, listed who had drafted it: First on the list, ahead of the government’s own vehicle testing agency, was CATL.

re: subsidies. China's consumer direct purchase subsidy ended in Dec 2022, but was extended again as tax credit for another 4 years in Jun 2023. Just to be sure though, there are many other subsidies besides the consumer subsidies at every layer of China's EV/battery supply-chain. The EU's anti-subsidy probe last year (see Regulation 2024/1866) for instance evolved around "export subsidies."

This doesn’t seem that crazy to me - a broadly applicable coordinated OTA zero day applied across cars during US rush hours has the potential to result in likely hundreds of thousands of deaths in a few hours if safety critical systems like airbags can be tampered/inhibited by OTA-capable systems.

The scale of car travel plus the inherent kinetic energy involved make a correlated risk particularly likely to lead to a mass casualty event. There are very few information system vulnerabilities with that magnitude of short-term worst case outcome.

The security risk of backdoors in your IT may drive you crazy, but backdoors in your car may drive you off a bridge.

I agree with your point. But cars are the last line of defense, and they are technology most people understand. With computers, you can just unplug them at the end of the day. A backdoor in a car or a drone or something just kills you.

> Cars are not critical infrastructure

Their production infrastructure is.

> the idea that China would turn off their EVs or starting to use them as weapons from the other side of the world is borderline absurd

Is it? If we got into a shooting match with Beijing, would we not try to hijack Tesla’s OTA features to disrupt their economy?