Dutch spy services have restricted intelligence-sharing with the United States
127 comments
·October 20, 2025michelb
crote
> our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure
And this is already being criticized over and over again. With various German government organizations now actively moving away from Microsoft and demonstrating that you don't need Outlook & Office 365 to run a government, I would be quite surprised if the possibility of doing the same here won't at least be discussed any time something needs an overhaul.
wkat4242
The Dutch IRS just doubled down on M365 though saying they couldn't find any alternative. Strange detail though is that they were not on a cloud service until now. It's a bit of a weird time to decide to migrate to a US cloud service when most places are trying to get away from them.
Johnny555
I'm not surprised, I used to work for a cloud SaaS provider, everything we had ran on Linux, everyone in the office ran on Macs and Google Docs.
Then as we grew the finance team, they found that Google Docs couldn't handle the spreadsheets they needed, and even Excel on Mac wasn't compatible.
So, the Finance team started running VM's where they could run Windows and native Excel. Then as they grew (in size and power) they found themselves using the VM so much that they started moving from Mac to Windows laptops. Then as our windows footprint grew, more and more departments started requesting Windows.
When I left around 25% of the ~1000 person company was on Windows (almost all on the corporate admin side, engineering remained overwhelmingly on Mac), and the Windows support team was twice as large as the team that managed the Mac infrastructure.
seper8
Bullshit, Belastingdienst has been on Azure for a very long time.
Source: I was inside one of their offices for a few Azure trainings.
renewiltord
I've been hearing about the German government moving to Linux from the days when I installed Red Hat Linux 7, I think https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/news/it-managers-cite-sec...
We will probably have fusion power first.
deepsun
I think it's not a binary yes/no thing. No one will ever be full-on Microsoft, and no one will ever be full-off Microsoft.
But even knowledge that your department must support non-Microsoft way is good, as it helps getting at least some parts vendor-neutral.
Same as security -- there's no perfect security, but the grade matters a lot.
deepsun
I think it's not a binary yes/no thing. No one will ever be full-on Microsoft, and no one will ever be full-off Microsoft.
But even knowledge that your department must support non-Microsoft way is good, as it helps getting at least some parts vendor-neutral.
Same as security -- there's no perfect security, but the grade matters.
jeroenhd
As with every large Microsoft migration, the problem isn't figuring out what's necessary to run a government.
People in high places only know Microsoft and they don't want to risk having to learn something new. National security isn't as big of a deal as having to spend a few afternoons of training, after all.
crote
People in high places have assistants to operate Word for them. If anything, the money Microsoft pours into lobbying is a bigger threat to gaining independence - the killing of the LiMux project[0] made that quite obvious.
immibis
The bribes also make a difference.
jll29
It's easy enough to wrap some open source software in GUIs that closely resemble proprietary software (cf. LibreOffice as an example).
paganel
That won't ever happen at a large enough scale in Germany itself because of the Ramstein military base (and other such US military bases located on German soil). Playing "we're independent!" it's just a futile game as long as the military US presence in Germany is an ongoing thing.
lovich
Well if you were ever planning on evicting those bases you’d probably want to start by getting off of other infrastructure controlled by the owner of said bases, right?
FridayoLeary
[flagged]
jeroenhd
Don't underestimate the AIVD/MIVD. They have quite the history infiltrating Russian networks and operations and operate a rather useful satellite listening post.
That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat.
America has always been spying on Europe, making it a bit harder by not willingly providing intel is a step in the right direction at least.
netsharc
It'd be risky if Russia-friendly folks start telling Moscow the intelligence that the Dutch gathered, and some of the current American administration seem very Russia-friendly..
mdhb
That is very literally the accusation that is being made for the record.
jimbohn
Somebody might even say that the administration sees russia as a useful tool to force europeans into paying a protection tol, not sure it's limited to this administration either
CamperBob2
That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat.
Gee, you think? https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/pete-hegseth-tie-causes-...
The entire Trump administration is indistinguishable from a deliberate -- and very successful -- attack.
hagbard_c
> That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat.
That's just pabulum for the masses which you're better off not repeating so as not to appear so easily fooled. Keep your friends close and your enemy closer [1] rings a bell I assume?
[1] https://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/keep-your-friends-close-...
throwawayq3423
No it's a summary of repeated pro-Russia statements and actions. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
mettamage
> The USA probably doesn't worry much
No, if they did, they'd know about certain attacks or planned attacks earlier [1]. So they should but they don't.
[1] https://www.amazon.nl/Het-oorlog-maar-niemand-ziet/dp/946381... - not an affiliated link, just the first one I could find.
terminalshort
If Dutch intelligence is failing to encrypt their data to the point that AWS / the US government could see it then they deserve to lose every byte of it.
vanviegen
Don't worry, these agencies seem to be appropriately paranoid. As an example: each intelligence worker gets three desktops PCs with various levels of security / airgapping.
ohdeardear
If they were truly paranoid, there would be a lot more they would do. I would call it naive, but then again, they are.
Icingdeath
Is it fair to say the US has been a bit erratic lately? Seems to me its hard to maintain trust in these circumstances.
stronglikedan
> Is it fair to say the US has been a bit erratic lately?
More than usual? Not really
alliao
so they say.. perhaps they detected leaks and just doing some a/b testing now
jacquesm
The current dutch (demissionary) PM is the former head of the Dutch intelligence services. To say that Trump isn't trusted by EU intelligence services would be a vast understatement.
michelb
Well, that's the same guy that planted Palantir in the Dutch government, since 2011.
jacquesm
Yes, so?
Indeed, that wasn't a great decision. But... there is a serious lack of alternatives that makes it very hard to get around the United States and Israel when it comes to this kind of software. Of course the Dutch should have rolled their own but give that we can't even get our tax software sorted out (I think they've been at it for 30 years), had our digital notary services hacked and a number of other noteworthy items I think that maybe 'buy' instead of 'build' was the right decision.
It's very tricky, I would definitely not be able to claim that in his shoes I would have done better. As a prime minister he's done a fair job given the absolutely impossible situation in our government right now, and this decision is one of those where at least he's willing to make a stand (unlike many other EU countries).
This level of governing is always going to be an exercise in endless compromises.
crimsoneer
Palantir installing their kit on your on prem network doesn't give them anymore magical ability to exfiltrate data than installing Microsoft office would.
XorNot
Palantir might be an American company, but if you hire them it's not like a bunch of Americans come and take over your IT systems. There entire business model is "forward deployed engineers" who by necessity are locals and come help setup things on your own infrastructure.
red-iron-pine
unless those engineers know about, and can shut off, backdoors in code, then their locality is meaningless.
10 guys in Northern VA are making those calls, not the forward deployed engineers and not your infra.
palantir dials home at some point to verify a license, right?
bamboozled
Good
IT4MD
Smart move.
OutOfHere
It would be glorious to see Five Eyes fall apart, but that is much bigger ask. Canada would be wise to kick it off before the US annexes it.
psunavy03
Because what we all need is to see the Ministry of State Security be the most capable intelligence agency in the world . . . wait, no we don't.
Alive-in-2025
Russia and China still exist and are pre-eminent dangers. The US has gone crazy but we still need to work together to discourage wars related to invading taiwan or Europe. I am terrified the US won't come back to being an actual democracy that follows the rule of law. At the same time, we can just stop surveilling our citizens in the democratic free world. We can just decide to do that.
micromacrofoot
five eyes falling apart now seems like a "be careful what you wish for" situation where we'd start losing long-held alliances?
anigbrowl
I think you might be putting the cart before the (stampeding) horse here.
josefritzishere
I think we all know whose fault that is.
stronglikedan
[flagged]
crote
The original interview clearly states that the US can no longer be trusted to do the right thing with data concerning Russia, and the spy services explicitly say that they are keeping a close eye on the potential of intelligence being politicized or used to violate human rights. There is no need to guess why that is the case, it is painfully obvious to anyone paying even the slightest attention to US politics.
Regarding "their loss": the self-destruction of the US on the international stage is directly leading to a "massive scale-up" of the way various European agencies work together. If anything, I'd call that a win.
lenerdenator
> Regarding "their loss": the self-destruction of the US on the international stage is directly leading to a "massive scale-up" of the way various European agencies work together. If anything, I'd call that a win.
It's going to take time and resources to match what any sort of "lost" cooperation with the US had, assuming they even can match the capabilities. That's a naturally bad thing for intelligence agencies in the interim.
Fnoord
It is a two-way system, and this article is about the information flow from NL to USA.
TylerE
It's probably the guy who has repeatedly and publically stepped on every rake, over and over again.
stronglikedan
Biden's been out of office for a while now.
aa_is_op
Well... taking into account that Trump was screaming and swearing at Zelenskyy to surrender to Russia or Putin will destroy Ukraine just yesterday... I don't see why the Dutch would stop sharing intel with the US
</sarcasm>
jay_kyburz
Where did you see this? I haven't read that anywhere.
unit149
[dead]
crises-luff-6b
[dead]
Covzire
[flagged]
jacquesm
No, they want to avoid being accessory to violation to human rights and the weaponization of such information for political purposes. That's fairly clear.
lenerdenator
I don't think they care nearly as much about that as many suspect.
Trump's a loudmouth idiot and the Dutch government has to look like they're doing something about it. Telling a nation that they're "not" going to share intelligence is one way to "do" that.
The only problem is, spies are born liars and the world of espionage is inherently opaque to the public, so what this really means for US-Dutch intelligence sharing is probably going to depend on what the intelligence is, what the Dutch have to gain from sharing it, and what could be prevented should it be shared.
If the Dutch government thought that they could benefit from what Trump's doing, they'd go through with it, humanitarian consequences be damned. Nations don't have values, they have interests. People in Amsterdam aren't going to stop drinking coffee en masse because of the coffee trade's reputation for economic exploitation of the global south, and they're not going to stop talking with the US if they can get to draw benefit from it, either.
Covzire
Seriously though, the article doesn't say why they're more "critical" but say that intel sharing remains "excellent". That's a lot of words without saying anything, these kinds of articles are fantastic for one thing and one thing only: reinforcing pre-existing beliefs.
Deukhoofd
The article they cite from De Volkskrant does mention the reasoning why some information is being restricted; the politicizing of information, and the violation of human rights.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/nederlandse-diensten-de...
Fnoord
I'm a subscriber of De Volkskrant and follow Huib Modderkolk. He is an investigative journalist in the area of (Dutch) intelligence services. He has uncovered that the Dutch agencies were involved in hacking Natanz, specifically in the last mile part of the operation. He also uncovered a strange motor accident of the alleged agent in the Middle East (out of my head Qatar or Dubai I don't remember and mix some of these countries up, mea culpa). He's done several interviews with former agents and has build up a network of sources.
That the leaders of AIVD and MIVD give this broad interview to him is unique, and a sign that they want to inform the voter before the election on 29th of October. These guys and services are normally very reluctant to share any information because they know the enemy reads it as well. After all, as you asserted elsewhere any idiot can use Google Translate which works quite well with Dutch for a very long time (since forever?).
Covzire
That's a paywall, and I don't speak Dutch, what precisely are the human rights violations they're accusing the US of?
And these kinds of accusations go both ways, free-speech is under constant attack in the EU, the ruling class doesn't want citizens informed or even able to inform one another of critical political processes and actions without their thumbs in everyone's mouth, that much is clear.
The USA probably doesn't worry much, our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure. All internet access flows through the same cable the NSA has access to. Radio traffic is intercepted in multiple locations in The Netherlands.
So sure, there are probably some signals the USA won't receive, but they still get the bulk of it.