US Airlines Push to Strip Away Travelers' Rights by Rolling Back Key Protections
180 comments
·September 24, 2025doodaddy
code_for_monkey
yeah, now imagine when its even worse
Mistletoe
I’ve seen the movie Brazil and I wish more people had so they would have voted better.
nyc_data_geek1
Is your form stamped? There's no stamp on it.
smt88
I'm not sure why you think that would've helped. A lot of the people who won't shut up about 1984 and Ayn Rand still vote for the closest thing to monarchy they can find on their ballots.
wartywhoa23
People should seriously wake up from this illusion of being in charge of anything via the scam they know as voting
lumost
Not to mention the lack of standards on leg room/entertainment packages/food quality for any of the above combinations on any airline!
lotsofpulp
If each flight leg is a different price, how can the website show you the total until you select both (or all) legs?
xenator
When I traveled USA this was my biggest insight. You never knew how much you need to pay. I took car and drove from Manhattan to Venice Beach through about 17 states. Every time I paid by cache on oil stations. Sometimes my car was half empty, sometimes it was almost full, but I expected long run. And every time amount I need to pay was completely unpredictable.
Netherless to say with anything else in shops. For me USA as country and as system left in my brain as one big endless lie comparing to Ukraine, Russia, Thailand and other not Western countries I glad to be resident for a long time. I'm not saying anything about people, about views and or nature.
I had very strong aftertaste that USA as part of the Western Civilization at this moment built on top of hidden slavery, when you don't own even your money. And this insight was a shocking, because I thought that my country was "developing", happy to be outside. World is much more honest and better for people like me who traveled a lot and experienced different ways to live.
Aurornis
> Every time I paid by cache on oil stations. Sometimes my car was half empty, sometimes it was almost full, but I expected long run. And every time amount I need to pay was completely unpredictable.
How is this any different than filling up a car in any other country?
Gas stations post their prices outside. You should get a feel for how many gallons are going into the tank when it’s half full or mostly full.
The pump shows the price in real time as you’re pumping. You can stop whenever you want. I’m having a hard time believing your story because it’s so clear what your price is by the second as you pump.
Also FYI: You could have walked into the gas station and asked the attendant for “$20 on pump #3” and then pump #3 would only dispense $20.00 of gas before stopping.
> I had very strong aftertaste that USA as part of the Western Civilization at this moment built on top of hidden slavery,
Gas stations charging by the gallon is slavery? What? I’m having a hard time believing this comment is real and not just some “America bad” thing. You can’t honestly equate paying for gas to slavery or act like paying by the gallon only happens in the United States.
imgabe
> paying by the gallon only happens in the United States
It does. In other countries they pay by the liter and it's also much more expensive unless you're in the middle east.
zitterbewegung
Each gas station in America does two things. One they take delivery of gas and they have to factor this with the future price of gas which requires one piece of data to setup the price of gas. The other piece of data is that they determine the price to also factor in demand which is obvious for them. Thats primarily why you can't predict gas prices. They can mess this up this easily.
ericmay
If you drove your car across 17 countries in Europe would you expect to pay the same at every station you come across? I don't think what you're saying is even the norm within European countries, is it?
JackFr
Exactly.
States in the United States are more than just administrative districts. in the case of the first thirteen states, the predate the federal government.
Each one has its own elected government. They have their own criminal and judicial system, as well as their own tax regimes.
Apart from the tax regime though, some states are home to large refineries which produce gasoline and many states don't. The distance you are from the point of production of the gasoline also comes into play.
bc569a80a344f9c
I suspect it’s something about how often in the US, taxes are added to the displayed price at the cash register. That’s not true in Europe, and is jarring when visiting or moving here.
However, this doesn’t apply to gas stations in the US. The displayed price is always inclusive of all taxes and fees. I don’t think there are any states in the US where that isn’t true.
anal_reactor
Big difference is that prices shown include all taxes and other fees.
tshanmu
you would know before consuming how much you would end up paying. not so in the land of the free.
kortilla
You didn’t know how to pay for gas so you felt like you were in a country built on hidden slavery!?
egonschiele
> Family Seating Guarantees: Under current regulations, airlines must ensure that families with young children are seated together without additional charges. This would no longer be guaranteed under the new proposal, meaning families could face extra costs just to sit next to one another.
This one is wild. You want to sit next to somebody's crying 2 year old? Go nuts. Change their diaper while you're at it.
null
AtlanticThird
I don't think that's what anyone wants. I think they just want families with young children to pay to sit together, like everyone else has to
itopaloglu83
Asking families if their teenager could be seated separately is one thing, but knowing the airlines, they might as well start seating the toddlers in the overhead luggage compartments.
bthrn
The most profitable way to fill a plane would be to knock everybody out and just pile them up in the fuselage.
eadmund
> [Elimination of] Automatic Refunds for Cancellations
Does this mean when the passenger cancels or when the airline cancels? If it’s when the passenger chooses to cancel, this seems fine and fair: he paid for a flight; he chose not to take it. If it’s the latter, then it seems very unfair.
> Transparency of Fees
This seems patently unfair. Folks should know what they’re going to be paying ahead of time.
> Family Seating Guarantees
On the one hand, this seems fair. If you want to sit together, pay for that privilege. It doesn’t make sense to tax every other passenger for it. OTOH, families are a net benefit to society, so maybe it’s right for everyone else to pitch in a bit. Also, nothing is worse than the folks who didn’t pay up ahead of time who bug one, ‘may we switch seats so we can sit together?’ So perhaps free family seating makes life easier for everyone.
> [Elimination of] Accessibility Protections for Disabled Passengers
I wonder what that actually means. It could be fair (for example, folks too large for one seat purchasing two) or unfair.
DangitBobby
> If you want to sit together, pay for that privilege.
Agreed. I think they leave too much money on the table. Use of window shades and lavatories could be behind a subscription service as well, with Sky Comfort+ affording you the privilege of multiple lavatory visits for those who have chosen the luxury IBS lifestyle. I'll let you know if I think of anything else those pesky airline passengers take for granted.
Bhilai
Agreed. There should be a fee for speaking too. Some passengers are really chatty. In today's world where free speech is already being curbed, Airlines should charge a free-speech fee for passengers who plan to converse.
Separately there should be a fee for opening/closing the AC vent and using the overhead lights.
masklinn
Are you a consultant for ryanair? If not, you should apply.
They tried to straight up remove the window shades, but that’s currently required by Ireland so no dice. A toilet charge has been floated but is apparently difficult both legally and technically. However given Ryanair’s usual treatment of passengers with disabilities I have no doubt a passenger with IBS would have an experience.
0xAFFFF
Ryanair talks a lot, but they mostly do it for the free PR they inevitably get when people act shocked. Almost all of their proposal are unfeasible or downright illegal and all of them should be considered bullshit until proven otherwise.
dillydogg
I think paying for water is a great opportunity. Maybe even the precious Biscoff. Especially for those cross country flights.
jghn
When I was young there was a discount airline named People Express that actually operated like this. In retrospect I imagine a lot of their nickel & diming would be considered standard these days, but back then it was revolutionary in both good & bad ways.
masklinn
You’re way late to that party, Ryanair used to charge crew for water.
LPisGood
Spirit Airlines does not give free water. They will give you a cup of ice if you ask.
jjcob
> If you want to sit together, pay for that privilege
This is evil. There is no cost to the airline to put people who booked together next to another. It's seems like Mafia-tactic to seat people apart from another unless they pony up another $500 in upgrades.
I refuse to fly with United. I understand that there may not be 10 adjacent seats when flying with a big group, but spreading out a family on purpose just so you are more likely to buy an upgrade is evil.
I understand paying for checked luggage because luggage handling costs money. But purposely making the experience worse just so you can charge money for upgrades is evil.
AtlanticThird
What do you mean there is no cost? Aisle and window seats are more valuable and can be sold for more, and this would force airlines to sell them to families without any up charge they would've received from other customers
fwip
If you're sitting together, that means at least one person is in the less-desirable middle seat, right?
hedora
Checked luggage charges are mostly about price discrimination and not cost savings.
They also free up the cargo hold so they can transport mail. Speaking of which, did you know the TSA screening area is a farce?
NickC25
> Speaking of which, did you know the TSA screening area is a farce?
My man, the TSA is a jobs program disguised as security theater. It's also a funnel for money into contractors' pockets (see: Leidos).
lumost
I’ve always wondered if it would be cheaper to just have everyone check their bags and eliminate the overhead bin. I wouldn’t be surprised if airline boarding was sped up by 2-3x this way.
kortilla
Some seats are worth more than others (aisle/window vs middle). Putting families together means giving “preferred seats” away for no premium.
eadmund
> > If you want to sit together, pay for that privilege
> This is evil. There is no cost to the airline to put people who booked together next to another.
Bin-packing is tough (look at Kubernetes!). Economically, giving folks willing to sit in a random seat an extra $10 and charging folks who want to sit together $10 is a wash.
Evil is, you know, torture and genocide, not efficient allocation of limited space.
LPisGood
Can you elaborate on the Kubernetes bit
cls59
> It doesn’t make sense to tax every other passenger for it.
I'd rather pay a monetary tax on my ticket to keep families organized together instead of the discomfort tax of sharing a row with parent+child that has been unexpectedly split up from their partner and is now trying to manage the child's behavior for the duration of the flight without the benefit of teamwork.
hedora
They don’t guarantee both parents are with the kid. They only guarantee that at least one parent is next to each (very young) child.
This presumably would mean you’d be feeding a random kid a bottle on long flights. God knows how they’d accommodate breastfeeding.
the_sleaze_
You are suddenly shaken awake from your restless, fractured sleep. A woman with a look of bright concern implores "Sir your son is watching porn!" "Huh?" She gestures to your right towards the 11 year old boy seated there. "That's not my son"
8organicbits
Agreed. Flying with my own kids, I'm constantly helping them. They struggle with headphones, opening food, fastening seat belts, being reminded to use the bathroom. Worse: they spill food, have potty training accidents, kick seats, yell, cry, and get scared. It gets easier as they get older, thankfully.
With an infant, having two caregivers within reach is huge. When flying with infant in arms there's nowhere to put the kid down, you don't have a free hand. An extra set of hands to wipe up spit-up, help adjust clothing for breastfeeding, collect the diaper bag, etc is a huge help.
The idea that parents need to pay more to help their children is cruel. I would expect people seated next to a child to end up swapping, to help the parent and to escape the noisy child. But that slows down boarding as people shuffle seats and adds anxiety that we're perfectly able to resolve.
hedora
Family seating guarantees are pretty crucial.
Many airlines have punitive seating algorithms (looking at you, Alaska), or pull crap like moving your seats around and separating you after you select them unless you have status (United used to, at least, since they had a practice of selling non-existing flights, then bin packing planes the day before) so without this you can end up having a breast feeding infant sitting across the plane from its family.
In essentially all cases, the kid can be put next to the parent without splitting up another parrty.
spartas
> Also, nothing is worse than the folks who didn’t pay up ahead of time who bug one, ‘may we switch seats so we can sit together?’
Some of us parents ask that question for your benefit, not ours. Do you want to sit next to my three-year-old?
eadmund
> Do you want to sit next to my three-year-old?
Not particularly, no. What I want is for you to purchase the seats your family needs ahead of time, not ask me for them for free.
I know that travelling with kids is really tough. I sincerely sympathize! But it’s not a surprise that a kid needs a seat next to his parents. They know when they bought the ticket that he’ll be coming along, because they’re buying the ticket. They should select the necessary seats then.
Sure, if the airline had to move flights around then 1) they should attempt to preserve group cohesion 2) in extremis folks should negotiate. But for awhile I was getting requests from late-boarders every single time I flew. That’s not an accident: they are flying on cheap tickets and trying to get extra value. I sympathize with that too! But I pay for the value I get, and I don’t appreciate social pressure to give it away.
hoistbypetard
The airline asks the age of each minor traveler when tickets are booked. The airline could perfectly well require that a kid be seated next to a caretaker. (Regardless of whether they impose an extra charge for that.)
Your gripe here is with the airline.
thieving_magpie
Then don't whine when you're sitting next to a 3 year old that has all the same justifications you do for sitting there. I don't appreciate social pressure to make your flight as comfortable as possible at my financial inconvenience.
In all seriousness I understand your point but I think it's worth considering that you're also applying social pressure.
null
vincnetas
:) tables have turned. Do you want to switch seats for a "small" fee :)
No, ok never mind, enjoy your flight.
philipwhiuk
Some of us think you're just being cheap.
hedora
I’ve definitely selected adjacent seats in the past, then ended up separated the day of the flight. Even if it’s a couple, it’s probably the airline’s fault.
I solved the problem by preferring southwest, but their new CEO is an a*hole, and instead of raising ticket prices $50 a seat is adding assigned seating, removing legroom, charging for bags, adding ticket change fees, etc, etc.
cdrini
> [Elimination of] Automatic Refunds for Cancellations
Airline cancellations. Seeing as they're talking about making a change, I assume it's airline cancellations, since no airline will currently refund you for a passenger cancellation.
itopaloglu83
They want to benefit from passengers who don’t know their rights, because they won’t request a refund.
Similar things happened to family members multiple times where their initial flight (overseas) was delayed by 6 hours, they had many issues, and nobody provided information about their rights. I told them about what to ask for and voila, $1100 refund.
hedora
Southwest used to for all tickets, for free.
They’re eliminating it because the new CEO is trying to speed-run them out of business.
atonse
Even though I’ve flown a dozen or more airlines in my life, I actually felt true loyalty towards Southwest because of their amazing no fee policies. And it was worth playing the “check in quickly cuz there’s no assigned seats” game for all the other benefits. And we’ve flown so many flights as a family due to that. It removed all the stress from the ticket purchasing process.
This CEO is a freaking idiot. Is this an excel jockey/MBA a-hole like the kind that ran Boeing and Intel into the ground?
What’s wrong with the board that voted this idiot in?
cdrini
I see they offer free cancellations and refunds for their two top-tier tickets, but can't find a reference for them offering it for all tickets. Do you have a link?
accrual
Delta at least supplies a 24 hour grace period to cancel in case one made a mistake. I noticed they don't even charge cards until after this period
kortilla
I think this one is required federally because every US airline allows this that I’ve flown.
tarentel
Some will, you just have to pay an extra fee when you buy the ticket. It is ridiculous.
cdrini
I think charging a fee for passenger cancellation insurance is reasonable; the airline takes on a decent amount of risk if a consumer can cancel at any time.
ghaff
It will typically be in the form of a credit but United, for example, does allow cancellations (not sure how far in advance) for no charge.
jvvw
If you're travelling with young children being seated together isn't a luxury, so it's basically a tax on travelling with children, and a fairly expensive one ($100 easily for a return flight perhaps for four seats?) when you've paid it for all the seats for your family.
Though when we had young children, we seriously considered not paying and enjoying having somebody else looking after our four or five year old for the flight :-)
Given it is a necessity, I feel it should either be a compulsory extra cost if you have children below a certain age or it should (ideally) be free to be seated together, so that people who do pay for particular seats know that there won't be an unsupervised child allocated to the seat next to them.
vonneumannstan
>On the one hand, this seems fair. If you want to sit together, pay for that privilege. It doesn’t make sense to tax every other passenger for it. OTOH, families are a net benefit to society, so maybe it’s right for everyone else to pitch in a bit. Also, nothing is worse than the folks who didn’t pay up ahead of time who bug one, ‘may we switch seats so we can sit together?’ So perhaps free family seating makes life easier for everyone.
I don't understand, are people buying random tickets and hoping to be put together once on the plane? I've literally only bought assigned seats on flights except on Southwest.
kortilla
Yes, exactly. They want to avoid the upcharge for seat selection so they roll the dice and hope.
bsimpson
I'd be curious to see how the all-in price of airline tickets has evolved in recent decades. It feels like it's now commonplace to have hundreds of dollars in additional fees for things like legroom. That means a cheap ticket is a midrange ticket and a midrange ticket can end up being quite expensive unless you fall for the "we get to strap you behind the bathroom with only the clothes on your back" Saver ticket.
It also means that you're often still out actual money if you use award miles.
izacus
Hundreds of dollars for legroom? Are you... sure? For what kind of flights?
mjparrott
One example: Chicago to New York on United, direct flight that is ~2.5 hours. $209 for economy and $381 for Economy Plus. This is a $172 difference.
sroussey
And its even more for first class!
hopelite
Maybe karma for short jokes?
Next up, $200 for head-room. You didn't think you could fly keeping your head upright for free, did you?
runako
In a search just now, Delta Main r/t from ATL-LAX is $337. Delta Comfort on the same flight is $727. (Yes, it's more than 2x the price.) Obviously Comfort boards earlier, but it's not unreasonable to attribute most of the fare differential to the legroom.
Checked bags are also extra for either seat.
onionisafruit
Don’t forget they give you all the 10¢ bags of sun chips you can eat.
ghaff
I'm most familiar with United. Economy Plus (which is mostly about a bit more legroom) does have a modest premium absent sufficient status that gets you it for free. But Premium Economy that gives you somewhat wider seats as well as legroom gets into the hundreds of dollars. International business has lots of benefits including legroom and lie flat seating but that usually gets into the thousands.
makeitdouble
Nothing should be allowed to be called "Premium Economy"
tclancy
US flights (99% of what I have experienced) definitely can get into three figures for anything other than "middle seat, way back". They know there's at least a built-in audience of taller people who will spring for legroom on any flight over an hour. And now that I am old and tall, an aisle seat and legroom are incredibly valuable to me (don't tell 'em, ok?).
Y_Y
Oddly there is no such premium for wide people. I understand (somewhat) price discriminating based on the quantity of space required by the passenger (for comfort or from physical necessity), but then why does this apply to one dimension and not the other.
I'm not even talking about pay-by-weight as was famously tried between pacific islands. Nobody wants to have someone spilling over the armrest into their seat, and I'm sure plenty of people who are wider than the seat would like to fit without going first class. I'm not even so unusually sized, but cannot sit in the aisle without being hit by every person and trolley passing by.
joshstrange
Yes, as a 6' 2" person, I can assure you that a single leg of a flight will be less that $100 but round trip and multiple legs moves it to $200+ very easily.
onionisafruit
The point of the comment is it’s hard to be sure because the pricing is anything but clear.
hopelite
Related to that; I am curious in what airlines think they will get or what motivates them to prioritize being deceptive, sneaky, dishonest, manipulative, lying, con-artists, i.e., just abusive all around? If everyone is required to provide "all in pricing" then there is no competitive advantage in being a bigger, better fraud; so must it be concluded that they think they have a competitive advantage at being the better scheming, fraudulent, manipulative con artist?
The airline market is so constricted and basically well across the line of a cartel, but I guess they think they get something out of it or do they just like the getting one over on people? "ha, you thought you were going to have a good time with your family or see your grandmother's funeral for X price, but we squeezed another $200 out of you, Sucker! *board room high fives all around*"
Or maybe is it a kind of momentum of the people and organizational structure that was built up over many years, aimed at facilitating the con and fraud perpetrated on the public that still has power to manipulate the airline enterprises themselves? The people who used to do that are after all, as I assume adept and oriented towards being deceptive, manipulative, scheming.
It's all a bit odd to me and I would love if someone could spill the beans on what motivates the airlines on being so adamant about cheating, lying, abusing, scamming, conning and generally being really awful to people and society.
Spooky23
It’s really easy: it’s all about revenue maximization.
Honestly, people fly too much. I’m 6’5 with a 24” shoulder - flying economy is painful for me and the poor soul stuck next to me.
I don’t need to fly for business and am fortunate to have a lot of PTO. So, I fly first class, business class, or not at all. If the cost is too much, i drive. There’s virtually no east coast trip that is more unpleasant to me via car. I’m young enough that I can do NY to Georgia or Chicago overnight with no ill effect. There’s so much wasted time around the airport many flights don’t even save time.
I’m going on a trip to Asia in the early spring with my kid. I could save like $4000 flying in the back… but why? If that amount of money is breaking the bank, I cannot afford two weeks there anyway.
cats_4_freedom
Your first instinct is to complain about shoulder room? Lose some weight, fatass
nemomarx
First principle is that customers will choose whoever has the cheapest flights in general, and airlines that try to market on having an inclusive price without surprise fees suffer anyway because the real cost is closer to fees.
The second is price discrimination - think current McDonald's prices. Soaking people who can afford it and letting people who are very frugal navigate your confusing system and membership etc is worth a good amount of money
cats_4_freedom
Nope. A good airline is hard to find (as long as they aren't f@sc1st$)
ghaff
I'll just amend to say that many on this forum are probably not super price-sensitive. But, within the broader population, many people are going to be more or less unconditionally looking to shave $100 off their family vacation. Which encourages a lot of a la carte nickel and diming over all-in charges.
cats_4_freedom
Not entirely true with the cheapest = first. I've been using a reputed and magnanimous airline for years and it doesn't matter what the other low-blow contenders are offering.
As long as it's in my anticipated budget, I want comfort, consistency, and courage. These undercutters have me scared they shaved off a wing to save on price. @#$% them. I fly with my airline, and these jerkoffs who want to bend over for fascism can die with it.
hoistbypetard
The Behind the Bastards podcast episodes covering Frank Lorenzo might be right down your alley:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bmGff5f-Ug
(They are available from all the usual podcast places, but it just happens that the youtube mirror is the easiest way I know to link a specific episode.)
EE84M3i
To add to this - is there some kind of general rule for what specific industries will devolve into the pattern of having these sorts of anti-consumer practices? Off the top of my mind I can think of cable companies, gyms, cellphone providers, airlines, live events. Is it market capture and/or the high cost of switching providers that prevents meaningful competition?
myrmidon
I think the main motivation is simply that reduced transparency enables better price discrimination: As a company, you want every individual to pay as much as they are willing/capable. You explicitly don't want to sell the same service for the same price to everyone.
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duxup
Original title did not fit on HN so I had to edit it, origional:
>American Joins Delta, Southwest, United and Other US Airlines Push to Strip Away Travelers’ Rights and Add More Fees by Rolling Back Key Protections in New Deregulation Move
grafmax
Deregulation once again helping business at the expense of consumers.
clcaev
As more legislators (and supreme court judges) use their donor's private airplanes, you might imagine how much they are thinking about the typical flight experience.
cats_4_freedom
Deport ICE personnel to a random country in Antarctica. Problem solved.
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pluc
In Canada, we've already learned to always fly a European airline when possible. We have some legal protections but Canadian airlines are happy to put people on a complaint waiting list instead of doing anything - it's pretty laughable. As of August, there's 85k complaints waiting. It's a 1.5-2 years wait.
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/air-travel-complaints-resolution-p...
bthrn
There is a 90 day decision timeframe starting from the time of submitting a complaint.
But note: > Due to a high volume of complaints, there will be a delay between when a complaint is submitted and waits in the queue and when the complaint process will start.
wat
LightBug1
One of my biggest regrets is not travelling the length and breadth of the US two decades ago when I had an opportunity.
What with orange two-chins in charge, MAGA, ICE, deregulation across the board, and the general shit-housery that seems to be going on over there, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to attempt it again in my lifetime ... it's not the actual travel that is the issue, it would be the non-stop gag-reflex on landing ...
RIP USA ...
hiphipjorge
I honestly think it's pretty amazing how cheap air travel already is in the USA and Europe. It explains why we're seeing all time highs for air travel.
The air industry seems like a good example of just the right level of regulation: There's tons of competition, different pricing tiers with their corresponding levels of quality, and a lot of dynamism combined with a good set of consumer base regulations (24 hour cancellation period, for example).
handwarmers
This might be the case if all your travel boils down to off season direct flights between major airports.
In my experience, it has been rapidly going up in price and down in quality since the end of the pandemic. You have very few protections as a passenger, and while you may have some rights on paper, they have been made excruciatingly difficult to pursue with the way support lines work with airlines.
To add insult to the injury, look up the history of bailouts airlines have received.
vonneumannstan
You probably work for Boeing lmao
WaitWaitWha
I echo what some already stated. I think this topic if real needs to be known. Problem is that I cannot find any reference where this information is coming from.
Give me a link, document, reference, or something to back up the claims. Otherwise it comes across as FUD.
> Instead of the clear, itemized pricing system that passengers currently rely on, airlines could hide fees until later in the booking process…
They call what we have now “clear”? Where when looking at a page of flights I don’t know how much the multitude of economy/economy+/economy++/premium economy/business/business++ seats will cost until I click on each flight? Where every carrier offers slightly different variations of these seats such that I can’t cross-shop on Google Flights?
Is that the clear and transparent system the airlines are complaining about?