I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

It really depends on just how cold it is outside and how much (or little) heat you are comfortable with inside. For mild winter weather (+5 to -5°C) and 18°C in the cabin, the range drops to around 80km or so. On a sunny summer day, I can easily get about 130km on Norwegian country roads, probably more.

When driving to the Netherlands in the months between March and October, the consumption has been around 8.3kW/100km. The car is light and has little tech that consumes power.

Since the car has no heat pump, heating the cabin has a noticable impact on range during cold winter days.

That said, it is a really good car to drive in the winter as the cabin gets warm in no-time and the windows in the front and back are heated and melts away thick ice in about a minute, even in really cold weahter! When doing normal commutes, the shorter range does not matter at all. But I would probably not drive to the Netherlands in -10°C during the winter!

> just like is possible with many ICE vehicles

Many older ICE vehicles, you mean? EVs aren't really special in their use of custom car-bound head units. BMW XDrive is the same XDrive they have in their EVs as they have in their ICEs. Mandatory backup cams is only going to accelerate that.

> it will likely retain almost no value as time goes on.

If you're buying a car as an investment I have bad news for you...

I have a 2017 Bolt as my only car and the slow L3 charging is definitely a downside, but I haven't found it to be a huge issue in practice. On a trip long enough to worry about fast-charging you're going to need to stop to eat periodically anyway so if you plan your charging around meals you don't end up waiting too long. Obviously gets a bit more annoying on trips that are long enough to require more than one fast-charge per-day, but I don't take trips that long frequently.

Day to day charging is generally all going to be L2 or even L1 depending on how far you drive and how long typically parked somewhere with a plug. That will be roughly the same speed in any car. Some cars do have higher capacity L2 chargers than the Bolt does, but most public L2 stations don't provide the higher current needed to see the difference.

Are you saying SuperCruise on the Bolt stops working or just that they wont expand existing coverage?

This Bolt EUV car drives so damn good. I was very impressed when I drove it.

The Bose audio is also quite good. After testing several new cars, I learned that Bose audio is not implemented the same across manufacturers. For example Mazda Premium Bose is just plain mediocre.

For the price that you can pay for one, Bolt EUV is an amazing deal. Unfortunately the charge speed is a deal breaker for many. But I never forgot how well it handles.

I really hope these cars last, they are a hidden gem and I think a lot wouldnt care about resale value if that charge speed was a bit better.

"driving assist platform is now deprecated and no longer receiving area expansions"

What driving assist platform? I don't think the older Chevy Bolts have any such thing. At least I'm pretty sure my 2017 doesn't.

If you're worried about self driving features, there's always the option of a Comma AI retrofit

Lane keeping works (poorly) but Bolt's automatic cruise control implementation is really good and works in stop and go traffic and at street speeds. I've used ACS systems before that refused to work in both those scenarios.

Charging time for road trips sucks. 99% of my driving is around town. Being a smaller EV it fits city life very well and I just top it off on a 120v plug every night.

I got a 2023 fully loaded with sunroof (except super cruise) for 24k, only had 40 miles on it.

That said the app is horrible and you can see how GM just didn't give a shit all throughout the car. No AC/dog mode. If you shift too fast after turning the car on you have to reboot the car using a secret method that is buried on forums (anyone reading this, don't press break, hold down the power button until the car restarts) and you can only remotely turn climate on to its last setting from the app.

Oh and even if you pay monthly for remote access just checking the charge level through your phone probably won't work (time outs...) and locating your car really won't work.

If you turn on climate remotely, drive somewhere less than 10 minutes away and then get out, you may try to turn climate back on using the app, but that won't work because the app has a really long cool down before it even checks the car to see what the status is so you end up in an invalid state where the app thinks the car is still on even though you just stepped out and turned it off.

Resistive heating means even with Seattle's mild winters I barely have 200 miles of range.

The car isn't smart enough to close the sunroof visor on hot days to keep the car cool.

In general it feels like what it is - a mid 2010s car that was far behind Tesla at the time for thoughtful details (expected given the year and GM) that was sold into the 2020s way after other manufacturers had updated their cars electronics to have common sense features.

That said some details are nice. You can be connected to car play and Android Auto at the same time and designate one of those as primary for apps and navigation but take calls through both. Physical climate controls are appreciated, and the rain sensing wipers actually work well. ;)

The 360 camera is wonderful to have. It cost me $10k vs getting a the base trim car, totally worth it.

I bought it April 2024 and I have some 0 maintenance other than car washes. So damn cheap to own.

In the 16 months I've owned it I've only put on 6k miles and it'll never pay for itself on gas savings , but last car was totalled and I legit enjoyed test driving the EUV more than a Lexus UX 300h that cost a lot more.

So anyways happy with the purchase, great value, horrible for road trips but I do them anyway.

--1

I've seen Leafs for $3k or less. The problem is their battery life is ~10 years max, and replacing the battery costs $5k-$15k. That old leaf may have a 30-50 mile max range.

Don't get me wrong, that would still cover 80% of my daily driving needs, but when I need to drive to the big town for work on a moments notice I may not have time to drive home and swap out for my ICE vehicle.

I have a pre-order in for the Slate, having 150 miles range would cover 99% of my driving needs, so I am not against EVs, just sharing the awareness that battery degradation is a thing to be concerned about.

Until September 30th so better hurry.

> The fact that both J1772 & CCS2 are 100% universal in Europe is huge.

Funnily enough, not for the Leaf! Though it will be on the third generation that's coming out this year. The second-gen Leaf (a ten year old design, at this point) that the author of the article bought doesn't have it. The EU only mandates CCS2 in _charging points_; manufacturers can still sell cars without it, though I think Nissan may be the only remaining one who _does_.

It's IEC 62196-2 Type 2 (Mennekes) and CCS2 in Europe. J1772 is the North American standard that is used in CCS1.

> Anyone who follows Jeff will know he's US-based

That was obvious from the article but given they specifically mentioned CCS2 bundled with the mess that is US charging I thought important to point that (anecdotally) the situations are quite distinct. Both in terms of charging hardware and payment.

Go to your local Mitsubishi dealership in Europe and you will find the 2025 Outlander PHEV with a CHAdeMO plug. And I believe if you buy a pre-2019 Tesla Model S or Model X, you will have to deal with Tesla's own plug.

I don't know how it is in the US but there is no one standard charging port here in Europe.

This seems like the kind of regulation that causes more harm than it saves in anyone's house actually burning down. I did a cursory search and didn't find any EU reports of a house fire caused by a L1 charger.

Sure you might burn a house down if you find one that has a plug which isn't correctly installed with loose connectors but the fire risk here wasn't the EV. Its the incorrectly installed wiring.

You don't tell people to get rid of their fridges because some people might have forgetten to plug theirs in and therefore they could get food poisoning from spoiled food inside.

This surprises me, given that almost every country has safer electric plugs than the US. Heat is a function of current and car chargers limit themselves to less than the current the plug is rated for. "Less than" equals 80% in the US.

Norway is not in the EU.

> but I don't know what car uses those

It is exactly this kind of Nissan Leaf. Japanese older generation cars. Enough around to still be available, but I think it is slowly disappearing. After that only 6kW (32A/single phase) charging will be available for these cars.

A big difference is that if you go to a gas station you’ll have both (and possibly more). At least in Europe. So while you need to fill with the right fuel unless the pump is broken or the tanks are empty the fuel you need will be available.

In the US, if you roll up to a random charging station you may or may not find a plug matching your car’s port.

You can’t easily/accidentally fill a petrol car with diesel. The diesel nozzle is too wide. Other way around is easier. But this is the drawback of ancient standards grandfathered in over a century. EVs don’t have this legacy to carry around.

This doesn't make sense. Wall plugs (like circuit breakers) are designed for a particular max amperage draw. If I have a 10A 120V circuit and wall plug, I can't charge my car at 8A?

I have wall ovens that connect via a 50A circuit. Do I need to worry about fire hazards when I bake something for hours and hours?

Source?

Re: the tax credit, note the income requirements here:

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-cr...

I don't know anything about your situation, but I'm guessing quite a bit of the readers here on HN from the US won't qualify.

For another data point... I purchased a used 2011 Leaf for $5k a few years ago and still use it as my daily driver. It gets between ~50-70 miles per change and charges incredibly slow, but I'm been happy with it.

The deals on used electric vehicles are pretty shocking.

Used Chevy Volts are actually more expensive now than they were a few years back, at least on the CarMax website. Maybe a higher price because they were discontinued but I used to love my Volt. Averaged 150mpg over 3 years.

kind of nuts since a used tesla is within 5k of this

BMW i3 are going for about the same.

Could've bought Model 3 for this and spend $300 for third party buttons. It has software thats actually somewhat hackable and car is far more capable. But I understand it's hard to recommend Tesla these days lol.

In NZ you can get a Leaf for $1-2k, about 50km range remaining.

Registration is usually far higher with EVs because they aren’t paying into gas taxes that go towards road work.

which networks/providers are good?

Tesla and Apple understand that the charger elegance and design is more important than the strict engineering requirements.

NACS is theoretically a worse charger, but it's more approachable to consumers.

CCS1 is clumsy , heavy and makes the car look like it's attached to an umbilical cord.

That's why they had to dump it.

CCS1 for others who are curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

aren't they all dumping it for NACS in North America?

This is not a general rule and many non-cooled and air-cooled batteries can hold up pretty well. The battery cooling becomes a limiting factor for DC charging, especially if multiple charging sessions are required per trip.

The Leaf limited battery life is mainly to its battery chemistry (LMO), although it arguably doesn't go to great lengths to ensure thermal stability of the pack.

I've driven an EV on 500 mile trips. Getting out and stretching your legs for 20-25 minutes once every three hours isn't "super annoying." If all I did was drive around all day, every day for 500 miles at a stretch, it might be, but not nearly as annoying as routinely driving for 500 miles.

For most people, the vast majority of their driving takes place well within the range of the typical BEV and range anxiety is a total non-issue. The fact is, even accounting for the occasional long trip, I spend less time at charging stations than I did at gas stations when I owned an ICE car, because the vast majority of the time, I just plug the car in at my house and let it do its thing.

> People who have bought them abroad are sometimes advised to keep the battery between 20%-80-90% full.

You want to keep batteries roughly in that range to maximise their lifetime health. That doesn't mean the battery will explode if you do otherwise once in a while e.g. you charge limit the car to 80% for your daily drive and before a big trip you charge to 100%.

Route planners will generally keep you in that band anyway because charging speeds fall off a cliff as charge exceeds 80~90% (depending on the manufacturer's usable % standard), and it's rarely worth wasting 30mn charging to full to save 5~10mn extra at the next stop (the same occurs to a lower extent at very low states of charge, plus you want some spare, so the lower 10% are generally treated as a reserve).

I keep the car at 20-80% when at home and driving around the city, I charge once a week. Before a trip, I let it charge to 100%, then charge to 80% on the trip (otherwise you waste time on the slow parts of the charge cycle).

It's really not a hassle at all. What's a hassle right now is finding a charger, as there aren't enough fast ones along the trip, but I've had the car for a year and have never needed to do a trip that long yet.

I did a 6500 mile ev road trip and battery capacity means next to nothing. All that matters is the charging curve between 3% and 60%. Literally all other variables disappear over a road trip.

> recharge after roughly 170 miles ... these cars won't be dead weight or dirt cheap

The average car journey is 8 miles. Being an average with a finite lower limit of 0 it is skewed higher by the people who for various reasons drive long distances.

You don't need a 1,000 mile range to get to the shops at the end of the street. It helps, but not that much.

> When and if there is a sudden jump in range innovation that reaches the entire market and not just flagship brands

I've read/heard about this innovation coming to the market in six months every few weeks for about ten years and it has never materialized. There are continuous, slight and consistent improvements to battery technology which add up over time, but none of the wunderwaffe battery technologies ever materialized into the market and produced any huge jumps.

We bought a VW e-Up here in the UK for the same reason - it shares all non-drivetrain parts with regular Ups so spare parts should be available forever and it's a very easy car to work on. Its easy 120-150 mile range is perfect for day to day use, I just charge it at home overnight. And I actually took it on a trip to the lake district few weeks back, no problem at all - 30 minute stop at a fast charger on the M6 both ways gave me way more juice than needed to get to my destinations. And it has an 8 year warranty on the battery, and VW lets me extend the main warranty for £200 a year, and a service is only due once ever 2 years and costs £90. What's not to like lol.

For £2,000 the maintenance plan is sending it to the scrap yard.

Gordon Gekko would buy it, break it into its constituent parts and sell them off for £5,000.

I would add one thing my family has complained about wrt road trip charging is it’s not just the time you wait to charge, it’s the time and games/anger dealing with all the people in line waiting to charge.

I agree with you on the drive time. A buddy of mine has a Model X, and he occasionally will make the 400 mile drive to visit. He stops about halfway to stretch his legs and eat lunch, the same thing he did when he had an ICE powered SUV. The only difference is now the car is charging while he eats.

> that is 8-10 hours of constant motorway speed driving and its not safe to drive that long

[citation needed] considering plenty of people do it all the time (truck drivers)

EV charging is hassle-free if and only if you have a home charger, which typically means you have to own a house as well.

Workplace charging gets extra competitive because it's often free, meaning all sorts of bad behavior is incentivized. It's weird how wound up people with $50,000 cars can get about $5 in free electricity.

I only got an EV after getting a house for this exact reason. I really like EVs, but I wouldn’t buy one, if I don’t have a convenient place for routine charging.

An apartment complex being built next door offers you to buy a parking lot together with the apartment, and optionally equip it with an EV charger. This is the way.

I have the same issue with a lack of charging at home, and totally identify with what you say here. The lack of an organised queue (could be in the provider's app, rather than a physical one) at oversubscribed charging stations is the worst thing about EV driving for me.

I have driven 20 thousand EV miles in the past year, with 50% of my charging being at public chargers (and 50% at home). I have never needed to wait in line, and have never needed to interact with anyone regarding charging.

EVs make less sense for people who don't have a dedicated home or work charger. But if you're lucky enough to have one, EVs make a great deal of sense.

Even then the Leaf stands out with seemingly unusually high battery degradation compared to the uncooled battery competitors from 2014.

> Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet.

Let me guess - Hyundai? They are notoriously lying about degradation.

> It's really old.

Funny, how 2 years old car is really old. For combustion engines, old is like 15+?

EVs will have the same problems as mobile phones. Maybe manufactures want that. But software will define the age of your car and I don’t like it. What if the car requires internet connection and the company dies?

What was the purchase cost difference between a Model Y and a Leaf in 2022?

Is that the health reported by the car dashboard, or by LeafSpy? The dash has some wiggle room in its 1-10 display an IIRC it will display 100% until the SoH is below like 90%...

The performance/battery life of a phone can be seriously affected by the software (each new iOS being built for newer CPUs), whereas this is less of a factor for cars.