NIH limits scientists to six applications per year
92 comments
·July 21, 2025gadders
prasadjoglekar
Indeed, and failing to name and punish the individuals in question means the rest of profession is now bearing a collective weight going forward.
jeltz
While I personally do not mind people abusing the system being called out, in this case I am not sure that is an issue. Is there any purpose in allowing people to submit more than six?
mbreese
The process itself can require multiple submissions for the same grant. From my reading of the article, initial submissions, revisions, or renewals will all count as a “submission”. Additionally, if you are part of a collaboration (program project), that will count too. The concern here is that with these caps in place, you’ll see a pull back from collaborative efforts (which are normally looked on favorably).
The main gripe isn’t the fact that there is a limit, but rather that the threshold is too low. If you doubled the threshold to 12, I don’t think you’d see much pushback and still be able to limit over submissions. This being NIH, I’m a bit surprised there wasn’t more data presented to show why 6 was a reasonable limit.
amelius
Sadly this kind of greed and indecency seems pervasive in society. We're transforming into a new species: homo economicus.
gadders
There really does seem to be a "vibe" in the last few years where (paraphrasing) "Society is going to sh*t so although this action is morally dubious, it's not strictly speaking illegal, so I'll maximise my earnings so at least I am well resourced when everything falls apart."
conception
When you see it working so well around you, you get the idea it may work for you too.
sorcerer-mar
It's called being a loser and we should ostracize such losers at every turn. Making money won't make them less of a loser. Can't wash it off, actually.
Nasrudith
They follow their leaders basically. Look at the pattern of avoiding claiming responsibility like the plague as it ends up with all of the downsides. When borderline the 'not illegal' legalist ethics prevail across all segments of upper society, with Congress sticking to that and blatantly illegally insider trading or worse instead of a higher 'avoid even the appearance of impropriety' the shit has rolled down hill.
Although it might also just be an impact of illusions of nobility from the past shattered by increased transparency. George Washington abused his power to land speculate for one, presidents who had their affair participant institutionalized for stating uncomfortable truths about whose child was whose.
theobeers
Indeed, many such cases. Our society is full of institutions that functioned only because "no one in a position to participate would be shameless enough to abuse it." Then that assumption breaks, and it's ruined for everyone.
It is relevant, though awkward to discuss, that a large share of NIH and NSF funding proposals (and indeed funded projects) are led by researchers who didn't grow up in the US. I wonder if it's in fact a majority.
gus_massa
It's hard to know without reading them, and perhaps 40 is too much for a innocent explanation, but ...
It's common that the head of the laboratory submit the applications for each project, so 40 application may mean 40 subteams with 2-6 minions each (where each minion has a Ph.D. or is a graduate student.) Usually when the paper is published, the head of the laboratory is the "last author".
Now it's getting common to make an AI cleanup, like fixing orthography and grammar and perhaps reduce the text to 5000 characters. Without reading them it's hard to know if this is the case or it's nonsensical AI slop.
BeetleB
> It's common that the head of the laboratory submit the applications for each project, so 40 application may mean 40 subteams with 2-6 minions each (where each minion has a Ph.D. or is a graduate student.) Usually when the paper is published, the head of the laboratory is the "last author".
I believe this is the reason they are limiting it. A not of grants require the PI to spend at least some percentage of their research time on the project. PIs trend to ignore that requirement. As a result big names were getting a huge number of grants and early career researchers were getting none. Requirements like these give other researchers a chance.
BiteCode_dev
Is there ground to sue those people?
amelius
I suppose you could if you looked at it as a denial of service attack.
colechristensen
Maybe someone could make a fraud case out of it? It really depends on details not given whether or a decent civil or criminal case exists. Very likely a university-level ethics investigation would be warranted.
lazide
If it wasn’t against the rules, and the submissions themselves were legit (albeit AI assisted), what basis is there for fraud?
randomizedalgs
For perspective, the CS programs in the NSF already have a two-submission limit per year [1].
Besides reducing the incentive to spam, this rule has had another positive effect: As a researcher without funding, you don't have to spend your whole year writing grants. You can, instead, spend your time on actual research.
With that said, NIH grants tend to me much more narrow than CS ones, and I imagine that it takes a lot more grants to keep a lab going...
[1] https://www.nsf.gov/funding/opportunities/computer-informati...
elehack
Describing this as a limit on "CS programs" is a common, but erroneous, understanding of the proposal limit.
This specific solicitation — CISE Core Programs — has a 2-proposal-per-year limit. However, that only applies to this solicitation, and only counts proposals submitted to this solicitation. CISE Core Programs is an important CS funding mechanism, but there are quite a few other funding vehicles within CISE (Robust Intelligence, RETTL, SATC, and many more, including CAREER). Each has its own limits, that generally don't count or count against the Core Programs limit.
krallistic
Seems like a band-aid solution for a broken system.
But in general science will have to deal with that problem. Written text used to "proof" that the author spend some level of thought into the topic. With AI that promise is broken.
RhysU
It's going to be really funny when the NIH eventually sits down the professors, hands them blue exam booklets, and makes them write proposals in freehand.
paulluuk
The question is: is AI breaking the system, or was it always broken and does AI merely show what is broken about it?
I'm not a scientist/researcher myself, but from what I hear from friends who are, the whole "industry" (which is really what it is) is riddled with corruption, politics, broken systems and lack of actual scientific interest.
jeltz
Everyone even remotely close to the system knew that this was broken and this is just bandaid. More fundamental changes would be needed to fix this.
raphman
"Broken" is a spectrum. Adding rapid-fire AI exacerbates the existing problems and makes it harder to fix them.
miltonlost
Yeah, a single drip of water leaking out of a pipe is "broken" but is substantially different than a deluge flooding out constantly.
strangescript
I was literally typing band-aid when I scrolled down.
Many systems are going to have to come up with better solutions to the problems AI will pose for legacy processes.
n20benn
The same is happening in the Computer Security academic research realm. All of the four top conferences (USENIX Security, ACM CCS, IEEE S&P, and NDSS) have instituted a submission cap--you can't have your name on more than 6 papers being submitted in a given cycle. This has all happened within the last year, likely due to the same GenAI abuse that puts undue burden on PC reviewers.
jasonhong
Having been on the program committee for some of these conferences, this issue of limiting number of submissions was being discussed long before GenAI. Specifically, there was talk of a few highly prolific security researchers that submitted 15-20 papers to these conferences each cycle, with pretty good quality too.
d4rkn0d3z
This seems like a good example of a more general issue; when you have a machine that produces bullshit mixed with gem-like phraseology, at a pace that we cannot possibly match as humans, we may be faced with intellectual denial of service attacks.
maratc
There was a natural barrier of investing time into writing the proposal.
This barrier is clearly broken now.
A different barrier could be money that people submitting grant proposals would need to pay. First grant proposal could be $0, second $1, third $10, fourth $100, etc.
nness
Or more limited in impact — flag people who are behaving outside of the norms for manaul review, i.e. too many or too frequent submissions. Manual review and if any are found to contain AI, assume all are AI, and charge only that person a fixed proposal review fee going forward.
Cthulhu_
The "if found to contain AI" part will possibly become harder and harder to detect over time, at which point you have to assume all entries could be AI, and flagging or making them pay a review fee would become the standard.
But it's similar to emails, under water your e-mail account has a 'trust score' based on previous behaviour, domain, etc. It could also come from the other side, if a scientist is attached to a university or other research body, they should sign off on a declaration that AI was not used (or used but clearly marked as such), with a big fine and reputation damage for the university if their researchers violate it.
maratc
That would need a clear definition of what "too many" or "too frequent" mean. Every time this definition is changed, you'd need to retroactively apply the change. Changing the "person" would circumvent this.
My idea doesn't involve any of that -- you want to submit 10 proposals? $111,111,111 please.
WillQuinn
I think its fair that the decision criteria should be qualitative, its just a bummer that its happening at a time with a complicated political environment and dwindling research funds, making it harder for researchers
Balgair
I'm curious for an economist's take here.
It seems to me that the incentives are such that now you've just guaranteed that all PIs will now submit 6 applications every year.
It may be less that what you originally were seeing, but I don't know the population stats.
It also may be that you've now poisoned all the other grant agencies (NSF, etc) and they'll soon have to have maximums too.
nxobject
Where did the 6 application/year number come from? The justification seems a little fast-and-loose:
> According to the new notice, the number of PIs who submit more than six applications per year is “relatively low.”
I imagine that, given funding cuts, PIs are going to try to work harder to find funding opportunities (i.e. more proposals submitted) for insurance.
throwpoaster
The decision criteria for NIH grants should be qualitative, not quantitative.
stingraycharles
Well yes but I can completely understand the fears of them being overwhelmed by the amount of things to review.
Unless they start using AI on their end to review the quality as well, which I don’t think is the way we want to have things going.
poulpy123
Which is what they still do or at least pretend to do. What they are limiting here is the number of submissions which actually will allow them to spend more time evaluating the quality if they wish so.
tornikeo
This reminds me of how I used to have spam-filled email inbox before I switched over to GMail. It almost feels like we are back to that state. There's now a large demand in keeping the context of humans free of AI bullshit. I wonder what the solution to this would look like? Identity-based blacklisting?
eloisius
Would it be cynical to think World(coin) is the answer?
poulpy123
What would a cryptocurrency even provide except more scammers ?
eloisius
I’m not saying it won’t, but the entire premise of World is to “authenticate humans online.” Once LLMs have made the dead internet theory a reality, another one of Altman’s companies can provide the solution: only trust content that is authenticated by World to be real, organic, human content.
jeltz
I don't think it is the answers but I could definitely see it being intended as an attempt to answer it.
seydor
it s not like spammers are anonymous
arghwhat
Not cynical, just wrong - yet another identification solution doesn't solve anything.
Bluestein
We are going to end up in a "personal certificate" cryptographically secure ID environment for users ...
... and everybody else is going to be assumed to be a software system.-
PS. Even worse (better): Your agent is going to be cryptographically bound to your identity.-
Al-Khwarizmi
How do you ensure that I don't write the proposal with an LLM, have it on my mobile screen (or even printed), and then copy it typing with my human hands in the super secure environment?
I don't see a way of ensuring actual human input that doesn't involve panopticon-level surveillance.
d4rkn0d3z
This would not be a problem because human hands are limited, their output is bounded.
seydor
the obvious solution is using AI to De-AI
addicted
I can't speak to whether the 6 applications is the correct number, but it seems like a reasonable first pass to apply some limit as long as the NIH is closely monitoring this and modifying the restrictions as needed.
From TFA:
"Lauer notes that not long before he left NIH, he and his colleagues identified a principal investigator (PI) who had submitted more than 40 distinct applications in a single submission round, most of which appeared to be partially or entirely AI generated. The incident was “stunning” and “disappointing,” says Lauer, who was not involved in creating the new NIH policy but hopes the cap will discourage other researchers from abusing the system."
Always somebody who ruins things for everybody else.