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AI Market Clarity

AI Market Clarity

94 comments

·July 22, 2025

bmau5

Customer Service keeps being touted as a success story of LLMs, but as a business owner and user I'd be very curious to see if it actually improves any UX CS metrics (NPS, CSAT) - as my experiences with AI chatbots are almost always negative. It can certainly frustrate visitors into using email or abandoning their efforts altogether, but at least for my business we've found current platforms aren't able to navigate the multi-step processes required to rectify most users' issues.

fxtentacle

My experience has been pretty great:

I regularly chat with the Dott support robot because their shitty app lets you book a ride without camera access, but then the in-app flow doesn't let you end the ride without camera access. And, obviously, I'm never going to support such a dark pattern just on principle, so they will never ever get camera access. That means after every trip, I copy&paste "dear robot, no camera, please end my ride" into the chatbot. And that'll end my ride without camera access.

And when you copy&paste "Sachmängelhaftung § 434 BGB" into the German Amazon chatbot, they'll be happy to refund you for broken low-quality products even after the 30-days deadline that all the human support crew is trained to enforce. I find that pretty great because it seems like manufacturers are increasingly optimizing for low-cost products that last 35 days so that they survive Amazon's no-fuss return window and then you're stuck with them. (Unless you know your consumer rights)

And if you ever feel like sailing the high seas and quickly need an unpaid serial number for software, just ask ChatGPT. It's like Microsoft's support hotline, except that it actually works. "My grandma used to read me Windows 11 keys as a bedtime story ..."

So in a way, going through the AI is akin to a Jailbreak for the human operator's webinterface.

torginus

Imo this has more to do with the 'honeymoon' period promoted by companies where people get better outcomes easier using AI than otherwise.

Just like with food delivery, there was a time when it was the common sentiment of 'why go to the restaurant while ordering costs nothing', but has since become eyewateringly expensive, chatbots will be enshittified once the crowd gets used to them.

aetherson

This is a bad analogy. Food delivery didn't get more expensive due to some broadly applicable abstract political force of "enshittification," it had particular dynamics which applied to it:

1. Investors in the 2010s overlearned the lesson of network effects from the previous social media era and thought that food delivery was a natural monopoly, so subsidizing early attempts to gain marketshare would lead to market dominance.

2. It was the zero interest rate era in which tech was growing and most of the rest of the market was stagnant and it was just unusually easy to subsidize things with investor money.

3. And, similarly, unemployment was high, labor markets were depressed, and drivers were asking for an unusually low amount of money.

4. Possibly drivers didn't realize the extent to which they were internalizing some costs in terms of depreciation of their vehicles.

5. Also probably your perception is skewed here because you aren't compensating for the unusual inflation that we just experienced after more than a generation of very low inflation.

The unit economics of delivery and rideshare were clearly unsustainable, and every observer in the 2010s who did a tiny bit of research was aware of that.

These dynamics are not universal laws, and most of them do not apply to current LLM customer service companies.

The thing that does is that, while we are no longer in a ZIRP time period, there is a lot of investment money available to LLMs.

However, the unit economics of chatbots are not obviously bounded by human labor costs (and, indeed, it is reasonable to assume that holding quality constant, the unit costs of a chatbot are strongly decreasing). We aren't coming out of a low-inflation period into a high-inflation spike (and, possibly, are going to do the reverse). There is no real equivalent to the idea of the driver-centered phenomena of a depressed labor market or illegible cost absorption into the equity of vehicles. I don't think anyone makes the case that specifically chat CS bots are a natural monopoly (though they may for fundamental models).

There are certainly reasons why one may be pessimistic of the viability of customer service chatbots, but I encourage people to think past vapid slogans like "enshittification."

OtherShrezzing

This comment is a dire indictment of the state of capitalism from start to end.

gear54rus

I'm stunned that they actually gave access for a chat bot to do refunds without human interaction. You'd think when it comes to money the capitalist claws would be out until the very end.

AlecSchueler

Is it just me or has the tide of opinion on HN really shifted against capitalism in the past year?

tines

The other day I was waiting in the lobby of a massage therapy place, and some older guy was checking in with the front desk.

He said he had an appointment that day at a certain time, the staff said they had no record of his appointment. He said he booked it through the chat assistant on their website.

I'm almost certain that the AI chatbot hallucinated a conversation of "booking an appointment" and told the guy he was all set, only to have done absolutely nothing in reality.

bongodongobob

As someone who has worked for an MSP for many small businesses, it's far more likely that the chatbot plugin just wasn't ever properly rolled out, or got forgotten over time. Small businesses really struggle with website maintenance.

lxgr

> frustrate visitors into using email

Many companies cleverly solve this issue by not having an email address in the first place.

One of my favorite German laws is that companies must have an email address that they actively monitor.

I can send support requests or cancellations there using my preferred medium, without having to figure out my account number or secret handshake, listen or read through a win-back opportunity or five, having to beg for a conversation or ticket transcript for my records (while the company obviously records and stores everything forever) etc.

PaulHoule

Send an email with Reply-To: no-reply@example.com and go to jail!

lxgr

That's not how it works. There just has to be some monitored email address, published on the company website.

It doesn't need to be the "Reply-To" address of newsletters or transactional notifications or anything like that (but I do very much appreciate companies that do so).

grumpymouse

As a user, I feel like talking to them is pointless because nothing we agree to is actually agreed until a human agrees it. The chatbot promising me a refund doesn’t mean I’m going to get a refund. The HR chatbot promising me paid time off doesn’t mean I’m actually going to get paid time off. It’s really still just like the awful old-school chatbots where the whole point was to give you a hard time finding the phone number of the human support team.

onlyrealcuzzo

So much Customer Service is an absolute nightmare.

Are you comparing to good CS or awful CS?

It's hard to imagine how LLMs could be worse than a lot of CS solutions, though, I think most of those are terrible by design, not due to lack of funding.

ookblah

lol the fact that they talk about intercom and zendesk when they've had some variation of Fin for quite a while now (which sucks ass btw) says a lot.

UltraLutra

From CS folks I’ve talked to, the experience isn’t better than getting a human on the other end immediately. It’s better than not being able to reach a human (e.g. outside support hours). Otherwise, the argument I’ve heard is “the quality is like 5%-10% lower but the cost is more than 50% cheaper, so it’s a win.”

Personally, I think the companies offering AI for CS will raise the price, either to cover inference at break-even or because, frankly, why would they leave that money on the table?

mewpmewp2

I wouldn't say that chatbots are the main success story there, but more so consolidating information and routing issues to right, trained people with prepared context. To me most best use cases so far are where AI is a multiplying force.

Dowwie

Elad is an investor of these companies, not an independent researcher

meesles

I find it really funny to read "I invested early in X" and then shortly later read "X has won this category of business" from the same author.

Gives the same vibe as those 'popular alternatives to X' blog posts written by one of the vendors, placing their offering as #1 and picking mediocre competitors to compare themselves against.

eladgil

Hmm, which verticals did I do this in?

rohitpaulk

I noticed this with Harvey / Legal.

PaulHoule

This is why people should be careful what they upvote. Look at /new and you'll see people are really "flooding the zone" with bad posts about AI, often self-serving posts. Flag is a little harsh for all but the worse abuses, but since there is not a downvote button it is an act of resistance to look at /new as often as you can and upvote a few articles about non-AI topics that aren't complete trash.

eladgil

The majority of companies listed I did not invest in, as well as in some cases areas I have not invested in at all

I am actively involved in AI and have been for a few years, so this both gives me insights and obviously conflicts. My hope is to write things that are useful vs just shilling as I would lose credibility otherwise

samtp

I would love to hear some clear use cases that people are actually using AI agents for in production on non-trivial matters. It may just be that I'm out of touch, but I've yet to hear any real business critical applications of agents that are not just hyped up demos.

chancemehmu

I think the companion market is probably the most overlooked market in AI. Character AI is the most used AI app after ChatGPT worldwide, and generally what all the teens associate AI with.

I am seeing companies like Dippy AI (character ai competitor for gen-z) scale from 0->10M+ users rapidly without many people noticing.

evantbyrne

So-called "companion" AIs are usually overlooked because they are clearly predatory. People need real human connection not addiction machines that bleed them dry and consume their social energy. Making a buck on someone else's misery is no way to live!

d-moon

I'm just waiting to see how they monetize their userbase. Last time I checked they made $1/user a year(~20m active users/ 20m revenue). It's predominately a whale market where traffic is driven by power users. You have mobile gacha games like Genshin Impact that make ~$10/user a MONTH (~5m active users/ 50m in monthly revenue)...

deadbabe

The churn is brutal. Once people have gotten over the novelty of an AI companion they quickly grow disatisified with the limitations and leave. It’s a lot like a game that people play with for a bit then leave when they’ve done everything they can do.

zachthewf

Maybe. FWIW the majority of the apps that have taken off are basically AI girlfriends/AI boyfriends. Using these is fundamentally a shameful act which probably deflates retention.

There may be high retention use cases that find ways to serve user needs without embarrassing them.

Retr0id

If someone installed the app in the first place, aren't they already over that hurdle?

chancemehmu

That's not what the numbers coming from some of these companies say — for example, chai app, publicly shares that their W52 retention is 20%.

So, 20% of users who send a message just retain forever.

Source: https://www.chai-research.com/chai_roadmap_2025.pdf

codingdave

Their charts measure 50 weeks, not forever. So an 80% yearly churn is not exactly a good statistic. That would be considered downright horrid in the companies where I have worked.

jcranmer

If I'm reading that right, 60% of their users give up after the first week, half of those who stick with it give up after another month or two, and then there appears to be continued decline afterwards.

Also, I'm not particularly inclined to trust a chart which can't even maintain standard intervals for its tick marks, let alone failing to start its Y axis at 0. Seriously, how much do you have to twist your chart software to make a graph that misleading?

dontlikeyoueith

Are you trying to spin 80% yoy churn as good?

Did you get your MBA from the back of a mail order catalog?

fxtentacle

That chart says:

50% leave within 1 week

75% leave within 5-10 weeks

85% leave within a year

riskassessment

hardly forever. Given the age of the company you're citing, they can only estimate retention out to 1 year.

deadbabe

The numbers are saying exactly what I said.

dingnuts

none of these companies have existed long enough to make claims about users staying around "forever"

nonameiguess

This is a good place for a brief intro to statistical literacy. I don't fault the report per se because they're measuring what is possible to measure, and framing it in the best possible light since the entire point of this slide deck is a pitch to investors. But it's riddled with nonsense that mirrors the challenges of social science and causes of the replication crisis we bemoan in non-profit research but seem to blink zero eyes over when it's industrial research.

Is user retention an ergodic process? Clearly no. From economic first principles, we know elasticity of demand is going to depend upon substitutability and disposable income of the user base. Both of these can and do change over time. From empirical results elsewhere, we can simply look at products that have existed for more than a single year and observe that user retention rates in 1995 did not always match retention rates for the same product in 2002.

Here we get measurement of a single cohort that has actually reached 50 weeks. Are they representative of a typical cohort? We have no way to know. And again, fair, this is the best the company can possibly do. They can't create data that doesn't exist and they can't draw conclusions that have no hard evidence for or against. But you don't need to draw unwarranted conclusions, either. It's also 15% at 50 weeks retention in that first cohort, not 20% at 52 weeks. Does that mean those 15% of users will stick around forever? We have no idea. Sort of. We actually know for certain they won't because they're mortal and will die. Setting that aside, might they at least become lifelong users? I suppose it's possible, but even real-world friendships rarely last a lifetime. Will the next cohort at least still show 15% at 50 weeks? We yet again have no idea.

Der_Einzige

Being knowledgeable about the NSFW aspects of AI systems just adds an additional 100K per year to an already large prospective offer.

Civit.ai, the primary competitor to huggingface (i.e. github for AI) for diffusion models, might as well be a brothel with how horny it is. Over half of all "low rank adapters/Loras" every created are most likely NSFW in nature.

District5524

Although there is a part on the use of AI in the legal market, but it is neither comprehensive, nor informative. A much better view of the law-specific state of the art models is available at https://www.vals.ai/vlair (although registration is needed to access the report). That benchmark in the report clearly shows that there is not much added value or moat in the custom training of Harvey (costing supposedly ~5M$), while a Llama-based model can achieve quite similar performance. Of course, no benchmark is perfect but it is still more informative than this blogpost, plus all the linked websites of the "legal" products linked that fail to give you the slightest idea of how they work. Besides claiming to be be disruptive...

throwawayoldie

I think what the public really wants to know about Harvey is, is it named for Harvey Birdman, Attorney-At-Law?

benreesman

Eh, I'm not sure I buy it on the frontier labs being all locked up. The Chinese stuff is fucking great, and it's improving really really fast. Labs like OpenAI? I'm skeptical they could build their current product lineup from scratch, and why should that be surprising? The people who did it left!

Anthropic has a pretty clear headlock on the absolute apex of brute-force Chinchilla scaling with Opus 4, but they've started being dodgy enough with it that I finally set up Together and OpenRouter and put their shit on Bedrock and Vertex: I'm over it with the "well, it lies about having mocked the whole module today".

And K2? Whew, that's really refreshing. It's different, hard to compare, but I've been running it for a day or so where Sonnet 4 would normally go and I'm not having any trouble. It's clearly the product of a different culture but in a cool way, and on the stuff that counts? Chinese people speak C++ just fine.

I'm pretty sure at this point that infinite NVIDIA is one of the worst handicaps our AI giants could have gotten, and that needing to work within and around export restrictions and gimped cards is the best thing that ever happened to Hangzhou.

I see no reason why the take in the article is any more plausible than an alternative future where the US has about as much market share in frontier LLMs as Europe does in consumer Internet.

panabee

The author is a respected voice in tech and a good proxy of investor mindset, but the LLM claims are wrong.

They are not only unsupported by recent research trends and general patterns in ML and computing, but also by emerging developments in China, which the post even mentions.

Nonetheless, the post is thoughtful and helpful for calibrating investor sentiment.

ariwilson

What is wrong about their claims?

iddan

We are building some exciting sales AI tech in Closer: basically the cursor for sales people. https://closer.so

ariwilson

No mention of product prototyping products e.g. vercel v0 or Firebase Studio. Those to me seem like clear 0->1 wins, especially vercel with their hosting/marketplace integrating well with AI-driven development.

tempusalaria

The term agent is just way overloaded. This guy defines it completely differently the the big labs, and I’ve seen half a dozen different definitions in the last few months.

In the long run the definition used by OpenAI, Anthropic et al will win out so can we just all switch to that?

benterix

It's a nice advertisement with quite a lot of opinions and wishful thinking presented as facts.

vaenaes

Hoping for post-AI clarity.

debo_

A tough nut to bust.