Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface
206 comments
·July 11, 2025notarobot123
DonHopkins
HyperCard and Timothy Leary's Mind Mirror would be a match made in heaven!
Timothy Leary's Mind Mirror (1985) (usc.edu)
https://scalar.usc.edu/works/timothy-leary-software/index
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32578683
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oabRxvjf9k
I extracted all the text and data from the Apple ][ floppy disk:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37486524
https://donhopkins.com/home/mind-mirror.txt
https://github.com/SimHacker/lloooomm/tree/main/00-Character...
kmoser
> His open-source approach democratized psychedelic exploration, shifting power away from costly retreats and elite gatekeepers toward broader accessibility.
No surprise that, in keeping with the hacker spirit, Bill wanted to democratize information that is otherwise accessible only to "high" priests.
trenbologna
If you have ever had the experience you will want to share with the world and give everyone the opportunity to experience it.
ComplexSystems
Is this different from regular DMT?
Liquix
Yes. Regular DMT is N,N-DMT, Atkinson's Jaguar is 5-MeO-DMT. They have been referred to as "the power and the glory" respectively. 5-MeO-DMT is regarded as one of the most powerful and profound psychedelics, even when compared to N,N-DMT.
null
dare944
Off-topic, but I have to...
(From the photo caption) "Bill ... with his iphone prototype"
Nope. That's a Sony Magic Link, built by Bill (and others, myself included) during his time at General Magic. I feel General Magic is another one of Bill's endeavors that isn't widely understood or appreciated.
yyzaxle
Hi there. I will correct the iPhone prototype reference. Thanks for the heads up. - Axle / www.patternproject.ca
radicaldreamer
There was a great documentary on Magic Leap! https://www.generalmagicthemovie.com
Stratoscope
That is a great documentary, but it's about General Magic, not Magic Leap.
dare944
Yep. I can be seen briefly in one scene, listening intently in the background while Marc Porat waxes poetic.
piyiotisk
This is my favourite documentary on tech! If you know more please let me know
piyiotisk
Who are you sir? I am a big fan of the general magicians
dare944
My name is Jay. I guess I was one of the "lesser" magicians. I worked on the Telescript side, doing infrastructure for the Telescript engine. But I got to interact with both Bill and Andy, and Phil and Tony, who I followed to further ventures. My experience at General Magic was certainly eye opening and super educational.
brainless
I am on the fence with these topics because I have years of fear drilled into me. These topics are a taboo and I have rarely ever tried anything at all. The experiences did not ruin me, they made me more curious about my brain in a positive way. But the social taboo lingers.
What surprises me the most is that we have accepted sugar, alcohol, cigarettes and a ton of mass manufactured food which are harming us. I am struggling with high blood glucose for 12 years. Yet, the substance which I can grow in my* own backyard and may actually not be as harmful is just brainwashed out of my limits.
edits: you to me
stego-tech
As a similar "Boy Scout" of sorts, the fear is/was real. I didn’t experiment with so much as nicotine or alcohol until I’d tried “stuff” with the supervision of an experienced "sitter"; I ended up having some of the best times of my life in the safety and context of home and friendships. Combined with my own life experiences with drug abuse and addictions, I was able to build a healthy relationship with those substances that didn't result in dependency or abuse.
In the time since, my views have changed dramatically on these substances, and I'd like to try more of them. However, my personal moral compass prevents me from using substances outside of a legally permissible setting, at least at present - and that's something I'm fine with.
Ultimately, the taboo side of things is something the individual has to grapple with on their own. I can only commiserate with your frustrations, not help overcome them unfortunately. My only other advice would be to use any substance only to amplify good vibes, never to cope with bad ones.
If all you do is chase a lost feeling, you're missing out on what's in front of you now.
zoklet-enjoyer
Is there that much of a social taboo? Maybe it's just the people I hang out with and work with, but most people are open to psychedelic use and a lot have at least tried some.
skyyler
Some people’s conception of “normal people” is people on the bus or train.
Some people’s conception of “normal people” is people at a church ice cream social.
Different perspectives, I think.
lelandfe
Yes, it’s your bubble. There are American states still charging people over marijuana. Having grown up Christian I personally know people in their 30s who view psychedelic and heroin users similarly. Those people would have the opposite view of you.
Years back, my friend’s parents asked me to stage an intervention for him after they found out he regularly took LSD. He was 19 at the time.
dudeinjapan
Growing up my friend’s dad was a conservative christian and a frequent caller into conservative talk radio shows. There was a state referendum to legalize marijuana, so I asked what he thought. “Of course it should be legal. It says right there in Genesis—God said: I give you every herb bearing seed upon the Earth. What could be more clear-cut than that?”
null
zoklet-enjoyer
I live in a Republican state where marijuana is illegal
franze
I used that exact same image for ma Atkinson Dithering Algo Learning Page https://atkinson.franzai.com/
xeonmc
Ok, where is this psychedelic community found?
I must sample their handles for videogame character names.
diggan
> Ok, where is this psychedelic community found?
Bit like asking where all the beer drinkers are! People who are into psychedelics come from all walks of life and we're everywhere :) Start talking about fringe stuff with people and eventually you'll stumble upon others.
zeckalpha
The article mentions Erowid
firtoz
There are some decent communities in Discord, for both research oriented but also hobby oriented communities of psychedelics.
trenbologna
Burning man and other festivals are a good resource
copperx
Bill disliked the expensive retreat hurdle.
dudeinjapan
Visit your local Hobby Lobby and ask around.
kragen
Is the world's most powerful psychedelic the personal computer, or is it 5-MeO-DMT (Jaguar)? Not having tried the latter, and therefore speaking from a position of ignorance, I'm inclined toward the former. I think Timothy Leary agreed with me.
dpc050505
Having experience with a lot of psychedelics it's completely ridiculous to put the personal computer in that category.
Timothy Leary might've drawn a parallel on the psychological impact of computers (I have no idea on the exact quote or it's context), which is enormous, but computers are just not psychedelic.
_fat_santa
We need to push to make this stuff legal. I wouldn't go so far as to say lets sell it OTC vape pens at gas stations but a middle ground where you can go to a doctor to have this treatment performed.
I personally have never taken DMT though from everything I've read and heard on podcasts it's not something to be taken lightly. I think having a sort of "DMT Clinic" that you can go to would be the best middle ground of allowing the public access to these substances while also ensuring that there is a trained professional there to guide you through the process.
Saying "trained professional" in this context feels wired because this stuff has been underground for so long but I think it's starting to bubble up into the mainstream enough that we need to start bringing all that "into the light". Lets have training programs that teach people how to administer this stuff properly, how to deal with the negative side effects, etc.
One of the things that while I find understandable is ridiculous is the fact that Bill had to use a pseudonym in the community. I feel like if were at the point where you have C-suite types at Apple taking this stuff, it's time to think about making it available to the broader public.
shpongled
N,N-DMT is very intense and not to be taken lightly - but you could say the same with LSD, psilocybin, etc. Personally, I am much more wary of large doses of LSD/psilocybin than DMT, in part to the substantially longer duration of the former. Ego death and the complete dissolution of reality makes it harder to have a bad trip
gavinray
I'd generally agree with you, but:
> substantially longer duration of the former
shpongled
True, I should have qualified "actual" duration, not perceived duration!
lukan
"I think having a sort of "DMT Clinic" that you can go to would be the best middle ground "
Well, Ayahuasca (with DMT as the active ingredient) retreats seem more and more common and are for some reasons tolerated more and more in europe. Technically it is illegal, but I can still book them online.
But I won't, as I don't trust the competence of the average new age "shaman".
copperx
I dislike the idea of potential life threatening toxicity, the constant vomiting, the feeling like shit for days.
Ayahuasca trips seem to be like edging with poison. But maybe the documentary I saw was biased.
lukan
"But maybe the documentary I saw was biased."
Seems like it.
I did it one time and there was no vomitting and feeling great the day after.
But that maybe was, because the plant that was used was apparently not so strong. So yes, it is from natural plants, that can have very different concentrations. I suppose this is what the documentary means with life threatening poisening? Getting a plant that had a unusual high concentration?
But I never heard of those horror stories from people who do it regulary. (Vomitting is quite normal, though) Otherwise I have limited knowledge in that area, but I do know with mushrooms for example, you can use different ones of the same species to mix them to average out concentration differences. I assume the same can be done with Ayuahasca. But like I said, I would not recommend the commercial retreats anyway.
(I did it when I was invited into a ceremony in a remote place by people who were not frauds)
temp0826
Fwiw, "DMT" usually refers to nn-DMT, which is a lot different than 5-MeO-DMT (or bufo).
evmar
The state of Oregon is experimenting along these lines:
https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/preventionwellness/pages/psilo...
"A client may only access psilocybin at a licensed service center during an administration session in the presence of a trained, licensed facilitator."
hncomment
Oregon had gone with a broader decriminalization as of February 1, 2021, but rolled that back in 2024: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Oregon_Ballot_Measure_110
kelseyfrog
Agree, but the proponents of "Big Reality" really really really fight against its disruption.
pdabbadabba
Could you explain what you mean by that? Who are the proponents of “big reality”? How do they fight against its disruption?
kelseyfrog
Psychedelics challenge the post-Enlightenment project of "rational" adulthood. Western civilization has a deep myth: the myth of necessary order - a yoking of rationality, order, and progress together into what forms the basis for modernity. Psychedelics cannot have intrinsic value outside of rationality, so, they must either be accepted on the basis of rationality and order or face rejection. We express this using the rational basis of improved mental health. The contradiction of course is obvious; psychedelics provide us with profoundly irrational experiences that don't obviously fit into our cultural value system.
The point is that western civilization values rationality, order, and progress in a self-justifying way. The values that our culture provides to us form a feedback cycle of myth and virtue. Every argument that assumes this basis, reinforces its truth.
"Order is obviously preferable to chaos", is one of many subjective perspectives. Why should it hold more truth than "Plurality of perspectives are obviously preferable to the fragility of one perspective for the sake of objectivity"? The apparatuses of the state[1] all rely on the same cultural myth and promote it in a way that crowds out all possible alternatives. Thus the myth of necessary order has become synonymous with reality.
Like all deeply rooted cultural myths, this is something that's going to appear obviously true which coincidentally serves as a way of shielding it from honest critique. If there's one thing that I've learned, it's that questioning foundational myths feels like a cultural violation. René Girard’s theory holds; when a community is anxious or unstable, it lashes out most viciously at people who somehow threaten its central, but unspoken, truths or anxieties. The greater the received response that a cultural axiom obviously true; the more certain I am that it reflects a core cultural myth than any semblance of reality.
1. See Louis Althusser, Ideology and Ideological State Apparatuses, 1970.
gregschlom
It's a joke. People often have conspiracy theories about Big Pharma trying to prevent access to novel drugs that could disrupt their cash cows. The parent was jokingly talking about "Big Reality" as an imaginary group of people who hate to see "reality" disrupted by psychedelic experiences.
rekttrader
That’s an amazing sentence…
hncomment
A wise legalization might help with access & harm-reduction... but legalizations are sometimes bungled.
In the SF bay area – & plenty of other regions around the world – the criminal enforcement against hallucinogens is, de facto, a very low priority as long as you're not flagrantly endangering or inconveniencing others.
mosburger
Last year I underwent treatments for my treatment-resistant major depression using Ketamine. It was a clinical setting, where you'd get wired up to blood pressure, pulse-ox, and other monitors while you were monitored by an RN via video camera. This was IV Ketamine, so not the inhalants that are available now. According to the clinic, the inhalants (which they also offered) are also generally less effective than IV, and the IV was safer in my case because I have other medical conditions where being able to "shut it off" was a good thing - you can turn an IV off, but once you inhale, you're on your own.
So... this clinic was not entirely unlike what you're proposing w/ DMT.
FWIW, the results were incredible. I was effectively "cured." But unfortunately my insurance changed, and it became no longer covered, and I couldn't afford the $2000 every six weeks for the treatment anymore. And it's not super convenient to take two hours off from work to go to the trip-sitter's to get the treatments.
I hope that they figure out what it is in psychadelics that make them effective at treating stuff like depression and PTSD and make it more accessible because it seems like there's so much potential there.
(Also: fuck Elon Musk for making Ketamine a punchline)
copperx
I like the potential healing value of Ketamine.
But that doesn't make replacing every instance of ketamine with "horse tranquilizer" any less funny.
chrisweekly
"wired" -> weird
GuinansEyebrows
immediately jogged my memory for one of my favorite stupid Simpsons moments:
"why, there's no magazine called 'Weird' is there?" [0]
esseph
I hope research with psilocybin, DMT, and other psychedelics continue and that some of these possible discoveries pan out.
Example that just came across my news feed: "psilocin, a byproduct of consuming psilocybin, the active ingredient in psychedelic mushrooms, extended the cellular lifespan of human skin and lung cells by more than 50%."
https://neurosciencenews.com/psilocybin-longevity-aging-2942...
Euphorbium
I have not used 5-meo, but for n,n DMT the vape is without a doubt the most convenient method.
gavinray
I've done it a few times. Unlike DMT, you don't have to vaporize it.
It's active intranasally and well as buccally/sublingually.
Effects-wise, it feels roughly identical to DMT but with a longer duration.
temp0826
As someone who has done a lot of both (as well as drank ayahuasca several hundred times), they are completely different animals especially at the full-dose levels.
turnsout
Several hundred times? There's a story there…
gehwartzen
To me it feels like a completely different drug compared to nnDMT. 5-meo-DMT also feels very different depending on the roa from my experience (vaped vs IM)
gavinray
Ah, a fellow "I've IM'ed tryptamines" person.
I made this mistake exactly once, with 4-AcO-DMT.
That was the last time I ever did such a thing.
wvlia5
Expand on roa effect difference?
fer
I found it significantly less visual. As in, about as immersive, but somewhat lacking visual depth/detail to things. But everyone's different anyway.
hnthrowaway0315
I'm skeptic about psychedelic. Is there enough unbiased research about these stuffs? I myself is interested in it too but so far it is in general illegal in Canada, and I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to try it out.
nick__m
there are plenty of psychedelics legal in Canada, I know of a few chemical suppliers that specialize in this. It's been at least a decade since I last ordered from them, but they are still in bussines.
However you said that your not knowledgeable and I guess that you doesn't have access to a milligrams scale, so your better to stay away and learn the theory first. A lot of psilocybin analog (alpha-MethylTryptamine was one of my favorite and it's still available) from Thikal are still legal in Canada so that book is a good place to start learning.
xsmasher
There is not enough research because, at least in the US, there was a blanket ban on any research since 1970 when most psychedelics were placed on "Schedule I" - meaning they had "no accepted medical use" and "high potential for abuse."
"Big Reality" was either terrified of everyone becoming drooling monkeys, or people seeing behind the curtain of society, depending on who you ask.
demiters
Not a big fan of the ongoing productisation of transcendental, possibly brain-scrambling experiences. Keeping them somewhat less accessible tends to filter out people who don't do their homework to understand the substance and who consider it just another novel experience to try on a whim, which increases the risk of negative outcomes.
t-3
I disagree. Every time I've seen someone get a "bad trip", they're people who read a lot and worked themselves into a state of anxiety over the fact that something could go wrong. If they had just approached it like "ooh lets get high and have fun" rather than "I have to do X, Y, Z or else it's going to be horrible!", they would have probably been OK. Hallucinogens have way too much gatekeeping and mysticalization around them for what they are.
Understanding the risks of buying potentially adulterated or counterfeit products is another thing entirely, which would be helped greatly by increased commodification and legalization.
colecut
I know two people who had prolonged psychotic episodes, as in, for weeks they were in their own world. These were both people who had many fun/enjoyable experiences beforehand.
I myself have had bad / hell like experiences a small percentage of the time, despite literal hundreds of good experiences prior.
Becoming a father many years ago significantly altered my trip experience.
Dosage also plays a strong role..
These things are generally less toxic than alcohol and it is criminal to punish someone for having them or using them.. But they are also extremely powerful, and despite potential amazing experiences, do carry risks.
And they are definitely not for everyone.
01100011
Also worth noting that persistent negative effects do not require a bad trip. You can have a wonderful time and still have long lasting issues.
Bnichs
Can you explain how it changed after being a father?
hampowder
Whilst that might true as per your observations, I've also seen people do zero research, take a substance in the wrong place/frame of mind, and subsequently had a more turbulent experience than they were expecting
patcon
Yes to both.
We often attract certain types of people, and have a wealth of experience with that type.
We probably all take this as obvious knowledge. But only when I uncomfortably enter a group of people unlike me -- and feel totally alienated not just by their norms and assumptions, but their misunderstandings of my own -- only then do I truly confront the implications in a visceral, non-academic sense :)
esseph
That's true with anything, though.
turnsout
I have a family member who jumped off a balcony on LSD and needed extensive reconstructive facial surgery. I'd call that a pretty bad trip. It's kind of kept me away from anything more than mushrooms.
zeta0134
I suppose this is a dangerous counterargument to make, especially as I'm not a substance user at all myself, but... what's wrong with wanting to seek out novel experiences? I'd much rather folks who wish to do this be able to do so safely, with good sources of information about those risks and with a support network that is allowed to talk about it. I feel like the taboo nature of substances in general causes folks with this interest to hide it from their peers, exactly the people who would otherwise be first in line to spot problems and offer assistance. Shouldn't it be okay to talk about it?
wbl
Four entered the garden: Ben Azzi, Ben Zoma, Acher and Akiva. One looked and died. One looked and was harmed. One cut down all the trees. And one entered in peace and departed in peace.
aswegs8
I didn't know this story, but thanks for pointing this out. It's scary how people in this thread talk about hallucinogens like they could not ruin your life.
Citing Sam Harris:
“Ingesting a powerful dose of a psychedelic drug is like strapping oneself to a rocket without a guidance system. One might wind up somewhere worth going, and, depending on the compound and one’s “set and setting,” certain trajectories are more likely than others. But however methodically one prepares for the voyage, one can still be hurled into states of mind so painful and confusing as to be indistinguishable from psychosis.”
“This is not to say that everyone should take psychedelics. As I will make clear below, these drugs pose certain dangers. Undoubtedly, some people cannot afford to give the anchor of sanity even the slightest tug.”
mock-possum
Lemme guess, Ben Zoma was the peaceful one?
lostmsu
They are totally OK as long as healthcare is not socialized.
Gravityloss
There's angles to socialization. If a person with brain issues gets free doctor visits and a medicine, that is at cost to society.
If they are safe to be around and are able to hold a job or have children, then there's societal benefits gained. One could consider the treatment costs as investments.
If that person was untreated and they did something unpleasant or bad in public, or ended up in prison, that also has a cost to society though it might be more complex to quantify.
dtj1123
Does that line of reasoning extend to things like fast food and motorcycles in your eyes? Not trying to undermine your point, just genuinely curious.
hnlmorg
That has been various governments approach to drugs for literally decades and it got us nowhere.
The problem isnt that this still is casually available. Drugs have been casually available since forever.
The problem is that pushing drug usage to the fringes makes it less safe for people who haven’t done their homework. Ironically the exact opposite of that you claimed.
demiters
You're right. I'm all for across-the-board decriminalisation btw. But I don't really know where a responsible balance would be for psychedelic availability, my intuition is we shouldn't be aiming at OTC disposable DMT vapes etc.
JKCalhoun
Perhaps administration of the drug from a professional? Make the treatment an affordable and legal option.
mathiaspoint
I think with psychedelics it's fine. The problems you're talking about are with addictive stimulants.
asveikau
With psychedelics the risk profile is very different. Firstly, people can do harmful things during the trip. Second, a more vague, difficult to measure and predict concern around long term psychological effects to some people.
throwforfeds
The thing that bothers me the most are the companies out here trying to get psychedelics to a state where they own the tech and can try to make as much money as possible off of it. Not so much the part where it becomes more available with consistent quality for more users.
I was getting ads for MindMed's clinical trials of their LSD analogue a few months back and was considering signing up for it, as I'm totally down with more scientific research on these compounds. However, the idea that a corporation with a patent on an analogue that is lobbying to make it so their version is the one that is approved is kinda the worst. We already have LSD, it's cheap and it's amazing, yet here we are marching down the road of some patented version being the one that's approved for use. I get that these companies want to fund research, but this isn't the way.
jamal-kumar
Welcome to the USA. Psychedelics are just the tip of an iceberg here. There's shit like highly effective cough medicines or antidepressants available in other countries which show promise in saving lives but nope mired in patent stuff and corrupt regulation...
https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/european-cough-medicine-...
perching_aix
> do their homework to understand the substance
Is that actually the common thing to do amongst recreational psychadelics users (i.e. is there research backing this up)?
And how do these folks "understand the substance(s)"? We (humanity) know very little about how the brain works comparatively as far as I'm aware, and psychadelics research is further relatively lacking due to regulatory and funding constraints. Most resources I hear of just seem to be compilations of anecdata, frequently muddled with subjective remarks.
demiters
I can only speak for my own circle that I know about where test kits are the norm. Anecdata isn't ideal but it does seem to be valuable as long as the reader considers both positive and negative reports equally and understands the risks rather than just yoloing. I still consider Erowid a great harm reduction resource, TripSit wiki is also fantastic, and I very much support the approach taken by the Subjective Effect Index website.
perching_aix
I see, fair enough. I'd be just hesitant to say "xy keeps yz from doing zx" without data, cause it sounds like a claim (or even a fact) rather than an opinion/anecdote, and it's pretty hard to pick up on this difference.
We were able to clarify it and we're both being decent sports about the topic, but you can imagine how well this might go over in less careful and open minded situations. Or even desperate ones.
Someone
It also makes doing your homework a lot harder. If I want to buy alcohol, I can go to a shop and can get something that’s correctly labeled with an alcohol percentage and is highly unlikely to contain methanol.
If I go buy some psychedelic, chances are it is diluted or laced, so I would have to know how to test that what they sell me is what I asked for.
allears
There are jurisdictions where it's legal, and shops that will ship it virtually anywhere. The product is pure, tested, and consistent.
Of course you have to find such a shop (hint: try Canada), and it's still a lot of hassle for something that should be perfectly legal, and is, in many places.
jexe
Incidental gatekeeping by leaving it on the black market isn't the way to keep it safe, quite the opposite - that poses a lot of dangerous risks.
Bringing it into the light under thoughtful consideration and openly discussing and encouraging harm prevention is the only way to make this safe. Everyone should have the right to to exploring this if they want to, and there should be plenty of open discussion, research, and education. I really appreciate the open-source approach here, the spirit of this movement feels like the right thing for humanity.
Etheryte
I'm of very two minds on this topic. On one hand, it's widely accepted that most (not to say all) drugs leave a permanent mark on brains that are not yet fully developed, so teenagers who are often most curious about these things. Gated access is highly desirable in this context, especially as you can't take self regulation for granted. On the other hand, many of these substances show great promise in many clinical trials for a wide variety of issues, and decades of hostile legislation has kept all of that on the back foot. Openly sharing information about these topics can help people make more informed choices whereas those who came before them often had to go it blind.
justinrubek
I'd be interested in seeing specifics on brain development. When are they "fully developed" or what is a sufficient point that they could be considered to be. What other things do we practice that should be gated around brain development?
BolexNOLA
Yeah - I feel like we need a little bit more of a stripped down approach to drugs in the US. If you’re 18 or under, there need to be a lot of restrictions because we know for a fact that a lot of these things have a profound negative impact on brain development, and we also know that we don’t even fully understand the extent to which various mind altering substances can impact development. It’s just safer to say “no” until then as much as I am loath to endorse anything remotely akin to prohibition culture.
Teens will always get their hands on things so it’s up to parents to teach kids how to be safe around drugs and alcohol, but I know I personally will be really trying to communicate to my kids that they need to wait until they’re 18 to really start exploring all this stuff. I know they will before that, but as long as it’s a little experimentation here and there and not regular use I’ll consider it a success.
Once you’re past 18 or so, it needs to be all about education and general availability for most substances. Safe usage and community protections (such as not driving while intoxicated) should be the #1 goal.
512
> I know they will before that
I'm curious in what demographic/location context you're in to say that. As a teen I wasn't aware of anyone in my social circles experimenting with drugs and would estimate usage to be <10% and from very particular kinds of people.
Related: Hypercard was inspired by an LSD trip which Bill explains in an interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdJKjBHCh18)