On The Meaning of Ritual
34 comments
·July 5, 2025buntsai
zdragnar
Fraternal societies (everything from "greek" societies in universities to the Masons and elk lodges) did this quite well until recently, collapsing membership along with other communal organizations.
Anon84
There is an argument to be made that the current loss of a sense of community and the meaninglessness epidemic can (at least in part) be attributed to a lack of shared rituals. S. Junger (https://amzn.to/4nSaxfY) and M. P. Some (https://amzn.to/4eB5sUW) do a great job of making this point from somewhat different (and non-eastern) perspectives.
TimorousBestie
> Let us therefore just come up with a new set?
This is one of the purposes of 中国式现代化.
sandspar
I think we still have rituals. Rituals are often invisible to the participants, so it wouldn't surprise me if ours were invisible to us. I can't think of strong ones off the top of my head. Perhaps social media rituals, like posting certain content to "appeal to the algorithm".
eszed
I think the other top-level posters (at the moment) are missing the meaning "ritual" as defined in the article. (I'm not familiar with Xunzi, so can't comment on its overall accuracy to his philosophy.)
In the article, "ritual" is almost ridiculously capacious: it seems to be any social action or societal assumption that conditions our unreflective behavior in any way.
Cross the street against the light when no cars are coming (even though there aren't police around)? That's "ritual", by this definition - and, anyone who's traveled can tell you that behavior varies widely, even amongst superficially-similar regions and cultures.
I think it's a useful concept, and it's a pity that discussion seems to be being led astray by a confusion with the (mutch narrower) conventional definition of the word. Is there a similarly pithy term that might apply instead?
brazzy
I think there is actually a large amount of overlap with "culture" itself.
alganet
Over the years, I've seen many charlatans use eastern references to manipulate western audiences.
These kinds of texts, therefore, must be taken with caution. Which parts are "actual wisdom that I can apply to my life", and which parts are my own mind playing a trick of "it's old, and it's eastern, it's humble and it's philosophical, therefore is wisdom I can apply to my life".
So, I'm not questioning whether there is wisdom there or not. I'm questioning whether I can apply that wisdom to my life, through western eyes.
This part is particularly troubling:
> The first four points are essential to any 21st century ruling ideology that aims to be both moral and effective
Again, not saying that there isn't wisdom here. But should I apply this kind of wisdom using western eyes? I, personally, think I shouldn't.
rawgabbit
“Ritual” is part of Xun Zi’s interpretation of Confucianism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xunzi_(philosopher)
Confucianism itself was attacked during the Cultural Revolution. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticize_Lin,_Criticize_Con...
Now, it appears Confucianism is being pushed by the Chinese government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute
alganet
Thanks for the interesting historical additions.
I am not, however, approaching this from a political perspective.
What I said applies to Indian, Japanese, Native American, even Abrahamic. All of these have been used in the past by charlatans of various kinds.
The kinds of charlatans I'm referring to are not strictly political. Honestly, I was thinking of cheap cults and schemes (like I previously illustrated by my Häagen-Dazs comparison in another comment).
alicemaz
for me, the value of the xunzi isn't that it's old or that it's eastern, but that it's a sophisticated text which describes a system of morality, statecraft, and international relations which I largely (but don't entirely) agree with
the period he came from was extremely intellectually fertile, and you can find advocates for everything from rational totalitarianism to postmodern anarchism, ethical egoism, hippie utilitarianism, and jeffersonian pastoralism. I think an "east vs west" lens doesn't really capture it well, because the codification of what we would consider "eastern" took place long after this period, over the course of many centuries
there are things xunzi gets wrong, and after I finish writing commentaries on the essays by him I think are most important, I'll probably write a critique on that. I think of him more as a starting point than an ending point
alganet
How do I even know if the blog post represents this Xunzi faithfully? I don't even know how to properly read the source material in chinese.
jhedwards
I've read quite a bit of classical Chinese philosophy, and in my opinion that major piece that is directly translatable to Western concerns is the discussion of management principles. Confucian and legalist scholars recognized that statecraft was fundamentally a management problem, and they included a lot of wisdom about that sort of thing in their writings. This includes:
- One of the most important jobs of a leader is to find the talented people and give them work worthy of their talents
- Large projects start by laying a foundation which will facilitate later work
- Resource and disaster management are central problems of government
- If someone makes a bad decision, it is probably because they didn't see the value of the better decision. Instead of criticizing the path they chose, show them the superior value of the one they overlooked.
alganet
We brazillians have a popular saying: "muito cacique pra pouco índio" (a rough translation would be "too many shamans for too few tribesmen"). It's used as a criticism when too many people want to be at the helm.
I can related to that wisdom much more than I can relate to some old chinese (or old anything) text. I lived it, many times.
Maybe there are some important leadership advice in the text. But should you really apply it in the 21st century?
t-3
I don't really disagree with anything you said, but none of this is even presented as "wisdom you can apply to your life". It's discussing an ideology for the ruling class, by the ruling class. The 0.01% and maybe people who aspire to join them are the only audience.
alganet
That's precisely one of the tricks charlatans use.
Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it.
Again, how much this is actual wisdom you can apply to your life, and how much this is your mind saying "I want to be a leader, this is for leaders, so this is for me!!!"?
It doesn't need to be presented as wisdom per se. Like I said, by being old, and being eastern, and being philosophical, it suggests wisdom.
It's like Häagen-Dazs. It sounds scandinavian, but it's not. It's never presented as "true scandinavian ice cream", but people fell for it for a while.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4agen-Dazs#Origin_of_bra...
TimorousBestie
> Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it.
Is this a problem you have? You couldn’t pay me enough to join the “ruling class.” The best seem to be misguided, idealistic fools; the worst are responsible for thousands or millions of deaths, depending on what one feels like counting.
zdragnar
> "Ritual" also covers the comportment of people in their individual relationships, particularly unequal ones such as parent/child and lord/minister, where each side has their own particular obligation to the other.
These writings, like those from kongzi (Confucius), mengzi (Mencius) and others of the period are tailored to the ruling class, because it was a time of turmoil, but were for the purpose of fostering a harmonious and peaceful society. As such, the philosophy covers everyone in scope, at least in parts.
We have unstated, uncodified rituals everywhere in our lives. When you go to work, you wear more formal clothing than in your daily life. You act respectfully towards your boss, and use less profane or vulgar language. This is less true among hip SWEs but is generally true in most cultures.
Unlike xunzi's original audience, we won't get much out of the writings on ruling, as we don't have the means or culture to enforce behavior. We can and do order our own lives, however. Some go to church once in awhile out of habit, and some revolve their entire lives around their faith such as the Amish. Others find more of a middle ground.
alganet
That's not the point.
Why should I take citations from an old text in a blog post on how to apply it to the 21st century at face value?
The answer is: I shouldn't.
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titanomachian
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alganet
> should always be respect
How do you know if you're being respectful to a culture you don't know?
> Constant studying is the key, don’t you think? “Walk softly and carry a big book”
If the Buddha thought books were the key, he would have left scripture.
Also, if you meet the Buddha, kill him.
I'm not buddhist by the way. I'm repeating old sayings that I believe are less prone to being charlatanized.
titanomachian
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indiebat
Something I learned over the years, claims of ancient grandeur about some esoteric ritual or mythology doesn’t make it automatically great.
As general idea of rituals go, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that (any) ritual gives cravings of certainty of that rigid states of mind and that delicious centrality to our passing being here on earth (as opposed to cold indifferent randomness of life),
It’s more fulfilling ritual wise and to fill your ancient wisdom shaped hole, if you make a habit to read Shakespeare or Montaigne or someone you know and understand (as you can retroactively read, question and speak to the author in your head)
I’m having a bit of bad trip for sometime now, having realized ancient Indian mythologies are just (different versions of) Ancient Greek Homeric myths. That made me question assumptions of grandeur we make about “ancient” texts without giving it much thought.
P.S : To my fellow western geeks, Marcus Aurelius and Greek and western canon is the way if you’re searching for ancient wisdom, largely speaking eastern philosophy is not that thought provoking as “content writers” or Steve Jobs make it to be (evidently), it’s just that esoteric or exotic to you!
card_zero
Greco-Buddhism relevant?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
Possibly important to Western philosophy for inspiring cynicism and skepticism.
I agree with the author on the centrality of ritual in 荀子. But I find the author's suggestion that we should invent new rituals hubristic and naive.
We Chinese have lost the ritualistic practices that undergirded society 2500 years ago. Let us therefore just come up with a new set?
Who have been the most successful at inventing new rituals for our age? The Axis Powers starting with the 1936 Olympics. Hmm.
The author needs to read the first few pages of Alasdair MacIntyre's After Virtue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Virtue