Backyard Coffee and Jazz in Kyoto
96 comments
·June 23, 2025dataviz1000
criddell
I recently heard Craig Mod[1] in an interview. He has walked thousands of miles in Japan and has produced books that document some of what he has seen. The photographs he has published online are beautiful, but I've never seen any of his books so I can't comment on those.
Anyway, in the interview, he talked about places that sound like what you are describing in the first paragraph but he called them kissas.
dataviz1000
Oh, my. I'm scratching my head wondering how this is the first time I have ever heard the word kissas. [0]
Dracophoenix
These small cafés/bars are called kissa (kee-sah). Unlike a regular café, the kissa is designed to create an atmosphere allowing for a quiet appreciation of the music while drinks are served as an accompaniment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_kissa
For the interested, Chris Broad (Abroad in Japan) interviewed the owner of such an establishment (Basei) located in Ichinoseki: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1-9RMSbl_Uo
> (There’s one that’s chock-full of Star Wars memorabilia, for example.)
I'd definitely like to know where this one is.
altairprime
Nijo Koya, at 382-3 Mogamicho, Nakagyo-ku, Kyoto.
lubujackson
It doesn't feel run down because it isn't run down. No dust in the corners, no dents in the wall - this is the difference between patina and "old crap": a lifetime of care.
munificent
This is a really excellent observation. In addition:
> It’s such a curious, almost uncanny, feeling to enter one of these places. The inside feels much bigger and grander than the outside.
It makes sense for people to have an innate desire to be in places that are, you know, good for people to be in. The most obvious way to tell if a place is good for you is if it carries evidence that it has historically been good to other people.
Maybe we have some subsconcious processing that picks up on signs of human activity. That means wear and tear, built things, modifications. The way humans leave their mark on an environment when they spent time on it. All of that spent time is like accumulated votes that "yup, this is a good human place."
At the same time, we don't want to find ourselves hanging out in a dumping ground, slag heap, or other environment that humans have left their mark in by expoiting it. That's not a good place to be, because it's not just used, it's used up. So what we want to look for is not just signs of human activity (which a landfill has in spades), but a certain kind of caring activity. Marks in the space that seem to have been done to leave it more appealing to be in.
I think that's what the author is picking up on here. These tiny, aged spaces have a deep accumulation of caring attention. They feel bigger than they are because we pick up on that huge information density of all of the past people that have left their mark on a place. The place isn't large spatially, but it's large in time.
It's the exact opposite of how walking into a giant mall or corporate office can still feel claustrophobic because there's nothing—no things—there, no sense of history or connection to any lived experience.
jamestimmins
Thought similarly. It looks very clean, is well lit, the decisions look purposeful (no random crap on the shelves), and the materials wear well (wood vs e.g. cheap plastic chairs).
wagwang
I went to a cafe in kyoto near the bamboo forest where it was literally an old ladies house and in the moment, being there conjured deep resentment within me towards urban planners and zoning.
ecshafer
Japan has zoning but its done very sensibly.
In the US our zoning is done very restrictively: in this place you can build a detached single family home with this kind of set back and up to this height. In this spot you can build low density commercial. Etc you can ONLY build what the zoning board says. Then there are also complications from HUD, like they dont give FHA loans for condos or if developments have straight roads.
In japan the national government has a zoning policy. The most common zoning is “light industrial”. But if you have a zoning policy, you can build anything at that level or below. So in light industrial you can build a coffee shop, or a house or an apartment or a machine shop.
anon-3988
Man, I know it is a meme but Japan simply have mastered "aesthetics". It is especially incredible given that they achieved this in an urban area.
For example, consider the vines that are growing on that shed. Is that dirty? Should we clean them to get a pristine shed? Yes, you have to sweep the floor everyday to clean the dust, but should you cut down that small plant growing between the cracks of your building? Or the vines overtaking the roof? I think if you answers no to this, then you understand that sense of aesthetics.
For some people tho, they think its a bad thing (1), which I simply don't understand? I don't understand how people can willingly spend every couple of hours every week to trim their lawn to a pristine, perfect cube of grass. Is this beautiful? I think not. In my apartment, I have trees growing from the cracks of the building, and I think that's beautiful.
I don't know how they do it, it is not simply just being clean. I think parts of it is "allowing nature to take its course" which gives a typical structure depth and age.
1. https://www.reddit.com/r/landscaping/comments/vs1n0n/help_wh...
latexr
> Is that dirty?
That’s not what you should be worrying about.
> I have trees growing from the cracks of the building, and I think that's beautiful.
It probably is beautiful. It may also be inconvenient or outright dangerous. As the trees continue to grow and expand the cracks, the building’s structure becomes ever more compromised. Maybe the cracks will expand and more rain will come in, causing mold and making your home less effective at keeping its temperature. Or maybe they’ll expand in a way that a whole wall will fall off.
Seeing plants sprouting from the ground in cities is fun and aesthetically pleasing, I agree. But it is not always safe to let them keep growing.
appreciatorBus
It's a 1 storey building. Even if the vine means it will only last 50 years instead of 100 years, the risks are low and the cost to replace is low.
If we were talking about public infra where thousands will die if a structure fails prematurely, then sure, let's be careful about vines. But if a private land owner wishes to grow vines (or allow vines to grow) on their private building, I think it's fine.
latexr
> It's a 1 storey building.
I’m not talking about the building in the article, or even Japan specifically, but addressing the general point of trees and other growths which cause literal cracks and compromise structural integrity.
> If we were talking about public infra where thousands will die if a structure fails prematurely
That is exactly what I’m talking about. Well, maybe not thousands, even a four story building with a compromised structure can lead to unnecessary deaths.
null
card_zero
This shouldn't really matter, but it matters to insurance. So landlords cut down trees.
Chris2048
> the building’s structure becomes ever more compromised
on what timescale though? and in an invisible way?
I believe buildings are seen as more temporary in japan than in the west; maybe point at which the damage is excessive would outlive the building?
potatolicious
> "on what timescale though?"
Depends on how extensive the growth is and how structurally stable the thing is in the first place. But expect major problems on the decades-timescale.
> "and in an invisible way?"
Yes. This is the main problem with allowing unconstrained plant growth near/in/under structures - the degree of structural compromise is hard to assess (especially without spending a lot of $$$), and failure can be sudden. You're not gonna get as much warning as you'd want.
In the US it's a popular look to have vines growing against brick walls. They're beautiful but often hazardous for structural safety, especially if not proactively maintained and constantly monitored (which is $$$!)
[edit] I think overall the focus on the "pleasantly ramshackle" aesthetics of the shack misses the forest for the trees. There's a lot of daylight between "permit small businesses in possibly unsafe structures" and "western status quo norms for business licensure".
I think something Japan gets done really well is making it easy and inexpensive to run businesses, especially hobby businesses. There are a ton of policies that encourage this outcome, and we can and should adopt entire rafts of them without changing existing regs about the physical structural stability of said businesses ;)
latexr
> on what timescale though?
Short enough to kill you or your direct descendants. These things can look fine for years and then collapse in one day.
> and in an invisible way?
Makes no difference how visible it is if you don’t understand the risk and do nothing until something happens. And the longer you wait, the harder it will be to remedy.
> I believe buildings are seen as more temporary in japan than in the west
I’m not talking about Japan, I’m addressing the general point.
TechDebtDevin
I've never been to Japan, but lived in Norway for a couple years and I always felt like they had mastered western "aesthetics". Norwegians seemed to really appreciate Japanese/zen styles as well. One thing I always found interesting is most homes in Norway will have fresh flowers, despite living in a climate not conducive to that at all.
They have this word called koselig that we don't have in English that means cozy plus a lot more things, and these Japanese coffee shops really do embody that word.
Swoerd
We have a word for that: Japandi. "Japandi is an interior design and architecture style that blends Japanese minimalism with Scandinavian functionality."
PaulDavisThe1st
> I don't understand how people can willingly spend every couple of hours every week to trim their lawn to a pristine, perfect cube of grass.
I do ours because our lawn is 70% tumbleweeds (kochia) and cutting it before any of it can go to seed increases the chance that one day it will be only 30% kochia.
1024core
I remember roaming around the back alleys of Tokyo, as I'm wont to do to get a true feel for any place I'm visiting, and came across bicycles parked on sidewalks, covered with vines. Those bikes must've been there for several years.
Coming from SF, a couple of thoughts came to mind: first: wow these bikes have been sitting here for a long time. And second: this must be a _really_ safe place, because in SF, a bike parked outside won't last a day or two.
Funny thing is: the area didn't look rundown or anything. It was clean and well maintained. Except for the bikes in vines.
thfuran
> I don't understand how people can willingly spend every couple of hours every week to trim their lawn to a pristine, perfect cube of grass.
I once went out of town for two weeks figuring much the same and came back to a freshly cut lawn and a five-day-old notice from the town posted at my door stating that I had three days to trim the lawn or they'd do it for $300.
null
RankingMember
The western obsession with lawns is well past due for a paradigm shift.
mlhpdx
Regarding plants, my English influenced yard in the US contains no “tortured little trees”[1], but is also intentional and beautiful. Investing in beauty without ego is difficult and unusual but not exceptional.
[1] The Essential Pruning Companion by John Malins
enaaem
Pristine lawns were originally a status symbol thing. You would show off how much land and resources you could waste.
hapara2024
There is "no nature taking its course" here. Japanese garden also require good deal of trimming, it's just that the style is difference :)
2cynykyl
So true. I once saw a gardener removing weeds from a moss patch with tweezers. Very meticulous.
buildsjets
Oooooh so that's how to deal with the grass sprouts in my Irish Moss.
SSJPython
There's just something about Japan that makes its simplicity so beautiful. Yes, we all know Japan has dealt with economic problems, lost decades, declining fertility, etc.
But they still manage to keep the beautiful simplicity of life that makes their culture one of the world's richest.
shermantanktop
Jazz—classic jazz, not Kenny G- is common in urban Japan. Very common to hear Miles Davis or Dave Brubeck in a restaurant, coffee shop, etc.
frereubu
This reminds me very much of one of my favourite series on Netflix, Midnight Diner (not Midnight Diner - Tokyo Stories, which is a Netflix remake with many of the same cast, but not as enjoyable as the original in my opinion). Most of the action centres around a group of regulars talking while at a small izakaya in Shinjuku, Tokyo, which is run by someone known only as "Master" and only opens from midnight to 7am. You see a bit of their lives outside, but it always reverts back to the izakaya where they debate on various topics. Given the setting, each episode feels a bit like a theatre play.
sho_hn
I tend to react a bit allergic to the Japan-everything fetishizing so prominent on Hacker News (although I've come to realize that it's mostly Americans holding up an example of everything they feel they lack domestically, and in that sense isn't so much about Japan as it is about America), but perhaps it's an interesting data point that at as a grumpy cynic I still want to second this recommendation. :)
For one reason or another, the Japanese school of story-telling has a pretty prominent streak of this type of low-stakes, downtempo "slice of life" premise like this, that I find very satisfying. The director Hirokazu Koreeda has made many films of this type as well. For a while my wife and I would alternate watching Spanish films by Pedro Almodóvar and Koreeda on movie night, working through both catalogs, which somehow made a lot of sense together.
latexr
> Japan-everything fetishizing so prominent on Hacker News
It’s far from exclusive to Hacker News. In fact, it doesn’t seem to be that prevalent here, as when it’s mentioned it at least tends to be in relevant context. Reddit, Tumblr, Imgur, and plenty of other communities both on and offline have an appreciation for Japanese culture.
> although I've come to realize that it's mostly Americans holding up an example of everything they feel they lack domestically, and in that sense isn't so much about Japan as it is about America
Also not related to America at all. It’s just as common in Europe and western countries in general. Generation probably plays a role. Find anyone who had their mind blown by an anime at a formative age, and you’ll find someone who to this day is likely to have some degree of fascination with Japan.
sho_hn
> Also not related to America at all.
I'm honestly convinced it's a bit more prevalent in America, and I've explored this in earnest conversations with American friends. I don't mean to villify it either, as it makes a certain amount of sense. Their take is roughly that Japan is the benchmark case for a sufficiently alternative/different culture from an American POV and thus invites comparison. As in, yes, you could also cite equivalent examples in Europe (say, cozy hole-in-the-wall cafés in 200 year old structures with vines hanging off of them ...), but since the cultural overlap is much larger (or presumed to be), it's less striking. To quote one friend, "if you're going to make the comparison, why not go for the maximum you can?"
Add the surplus in shared history, the far greater exposure to Japanese products (e.g. car brands) inviting more interest, and so on.
Sure, you can find manga/anime fand pining for that Japanese lifestyle also in Europe, and Europeans are certainly no strangers to orientalism through the ages. But the incidence of finding "look at how the Japanese are doing it differently" in random mainstream media is a lot higher in US publications. And it's also largely been US-based consulting companies and/or organizations that have taken the hoishin and the kaizen and what not global in corporate culture and particularly in tech.
Klonoar
It’s far from exclusive to HN, but HN is still a prime example of it.
There’s a ridiculous number of Japan-centric things that make it to the front page compared to any other culture. Tech has always had a Japan obsession.
prideout
I have never seen a Koreeda film but he sounds compelling -- which movie would you recommend for a first-timer?
sho_hn
Shoplifters was a recent international success and is maybe the most accessible. My favorites of his are After the Storm and Maboroshi, though. All of them feature wonderful characters and quiet adult moments.
On the arthouse circuit, I think he's best known for After Life, which is a bit more challenging (honestly: I found it a bit dull) but worth biting into.
Do you know that pang of melancholic joy-and-regret you feel after you've had a wonderful day and you know no matter how much you and the others involved try, you can probably never quite recreate that magic a second time? Grateful for the memory you'll always have, yet at the same time sad? That's how his movies feel to me, where I'm often both happy and sad I've seen them. It's pretty damn great when a movie can do that.
flobosg
The show is based on a manga, by the way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin%27ya_Shokud%C5%8D
frereubu
TIL - thanks!
ape4
Turntable on a speaker - I thought that was not advised.
meesles
Why though? Because vibrations from a speaker can cause the turntable to move and move the arm or cause the needle to move.
In a jazz cafe, I assume the music plays low most of the time and so it probably doesn't matter much.
buildsjets
The motion of the speaker feeds signal back to the needle/input device. It matters even more in Jazz/syncopated music. The needle tracks with a force of only 1.5 grams or so, and any motion is greatly amplified. Also if you listen to jazz with the volume low you are doing it wrong. Do you link the volume was low in the club when Sun Ra was recording?
But besides that, those speakers are placed terribly for stereo imaging. Even tucked in the cubby, why place them with the drivers together rather than apart? And those speakers appear to be dreadful anyway. A single 12" driver in a vented / untuned baffle with no midrange or tweeter elements?
So this is definitely set up for aesthetic, not sound quality.
2b3a51
Depends how well the turntable is decoupled from its plinth. Think in terms of a lumped systems model with a mass on a spring being driven by (probably lower frequency) vibrations from the speakers.
"Now that I think about it, there was nothing in this shop that would tell you it isn’t still, say, 1960."
I'd go for 1980s based on the amplifier, turntable and speakers. It would be a radiogram, probably valve based, in actual 1960s. Nice though.
fitsumbelay
This ROCKS
Wabi-sabi spaces are awesome regardless where in the world they are. Portals? Even better. Awesome post.
MarkusWandel
What's also magical is that businesses like that can exist without being run aground by bureaucracy. In my city it is nearly impossible to even get a permit for a mobile food stand.
timr
Hah, hilarious. I used to live not far from this place. [1]
I don't know the story behind the structure, but it was a re-purposed storage shed [2] that someone was either subletting or owned outright. Probably the former -- the area is not remote, and is surrounded by new housing. Most likely is that some landowner is making a little bit of cash by renting out the space, and the business owner is exploiting the niche of having a cheap property so near to Nijo castle (a tourist black zone in Kyoto).
Setting aside the aesthetics, the most "Japan" thing about this is that it's possible at all to get a license to run a food establishment, electricity service, etc. in such a marginal space. It would never be allowed in the US.
Secondarily, leaseholder rights in Japan are pretty different than in other parts of the world. It's fairly common, even in major cities, to find underdeveloped, tiny little plots of land where there's a lessee who has a ~perpetual right to the space, independent of the "owner". Landowners will buy and sell the underlying rights to the rental cashflow, almost like a long-term bond, with no hope for redevelopment, and the lessee can independently sell the rental rights [3]. Again, I don't know if that's what is going on here, but it wouldn't surprise me. These kind of situations make it feasible for a business owner to invest in creating a business in what is essentially a potting shed -- one of the major risks would be that no one rationally would want to keep that old building in place in an area of Kyoto that could be more fully developed. But as you can see, this building is completely surrounded by new construction, and has been for many years.
[1] It's here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/3KtWnTAkmatMqN9b6
[2] I could be wrong about this part. The roof is tiled, which is pretty fancy for a shed. My recollection was that it was far too small to ever have been a house, but it's possible that it was originally a section of a larger machiya, which would make sense for the area and the geometry of the lot.
[3] This is sort of like mineral rights or air rights in the US. It's not a totally foreign concept to us, we just don't do it for houses or...shacks.
This streetview gives a better perspective on exactly what is around it -- you have new development in front and behind, and the area immediately to the front of the shop is a dedicated parking area for a nearby business. I suspect that the shop and the parking area are part of the same parcel, owned by the business.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0112669,135.7504895,3a,89.9y...
I entered a jazz izakaya in Kanazawa with only two stools and no room for anyone else. There was an old man on one stool and a bartender in his 70s or 80s. It is rude to tip and they will not except it but offering to buy a drink for the bartender is encouraged. I ordered a Japanese whiskey and offered the old man and bartender one. There were piles of knickknacks and maybe $15,000 worth of stereo equipment including a record player, planar magnetic speakers and a vacuum tube amplifier in this little room. I heard the distinctive sound of Sonny Rollins saxophone and used the translation app to say I saw Sonny Rollins play live at the Monterey Jazz Festival and he played an encore of La Cucaracha for close to two hours where his band eventually left the stage and he kept playing and playing. The bartender pulled out a Sonny Rollins record from his stack of vinyl and put it on the record player. The three of us sat there for 40 minutes not saying a word listening.
If you are in Kyoto, I recommend a similar style bar called Brown Sugar. They tend to have these types of names, for example, in Sapporo there is one called Jim Crow. [0] However, if in Sapporo, I recommend the half note. [1] Most bars and restaurants for that matter will not serve me because I do not speak Japanese, so they say. If I wanted a drink I would stick to Karaoke and jazz bars. I made some friends in Kyoto who were finishing their 4th year studying engineering at University of Kyoto who were from Africa -- these kids are African royalty. They spoke perfect fluent Japanese and they couldn't get access into bars that would let me in. So the names are fitting and likely they know exactly what they mean.
[0] https://www.google.com/search?q=sapporo+japan+bar+jim+crow
[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=sapporo+japan+piano+ba+half+...