Programming on 34 Keys (2022)
53 comments
·May 25, 2025stephendause
My coworker has a similar setup and loves it. Personally, it feels diametrically opposed to the way that I like to use my keyboard. I don't even like holding Shift to type `{`, `_`, etc when programming. I wish I had dedicated keys for those and other common symbols. I don't mind moving my hands a few inches at all, but for some reason, it feels cumbersome to me to hold down a key to activate another layer. To each their own, of course.
theroncross
There's a non-obvious, but significant, difference between holding with a thumb in a neutral position and holding with a pinky in a stretched position. Layers become effortless on a keyboard like this.
Hojojo
I have my layer switch key configured to require only a button press, then the next key I type will be from that layer. So I don't have to hold it down. It's so much more comfortable to use special symbols this way. I've also done this for my shift key.
_def
I guess that's why the thumbs get used here to activate the other layers. I have to try it, but thinking about it it seems way more ergonomic compared to the usual position of the shift key
Hojojo
This is definitely the case. Since the layer key is at the thumb, it doesn't require moving your hand and you barely need to move your thumb. As somebody who suffers from wrist pain, this makes a huge difference.
layer8
Unfortunately I developed beginning arthrosis in my thumbs, so pressing space is about the most I can subject them to.
layer8
I agree. I also developed serious RSI from overuse of modifiers and cords. Not everyone’s RSI is the same, but just as a caveat.
lawn
I suggest you look into combos (press multiple keys as an extra key).
For example, I don't hold to type either { or _ or any symbol (O can hold of I type multiple symbols in a row though).
https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe...
FrankWilhoit
Are there, really, developers whose productivity is first and foremost constrained by how fast they can type? If so, what else is known about them? What class of problems are they working on?
NobodyNada
It's not about how fast you can type, it's about how effortlessly you can type.
Programming involves long periods of thinking interrupted by short periods of typing. Anything you can do to reduce the mental effort of typing reduces the impact of this interruption to your train of thought.
Try programming by hunt-and-peck typing -- it's certainly possible, but having to think about putting each individual character on the screen is incredibly tedious and distracting. This is why people learn things like Vim motions or minimalist keyboard layouts -- anything that speeds up the feedback loop between your brain and your code is an improvement. It's not a drastic difference, but it's significant enough that I now feel mildly annoyed using a regular keyboard when I have to move my whole arm to reach the arrow keys rather than having them right under my fingers on the home row.
throwaway71271
For me its not how fast I can type, my brain(ADHD or whatever this is) needs certain flow of speed; I think of something and want to type it, if I am delayed (e.g. imagine I change from qwerty to dvorak and am still learning) for whatever reason, e.g. key is stuck, my mind goes somewhere else, and then I have to "bring it back".
Also as I am typing one thing I am thinking of another, or even third, so if something goes wrong with the mechanics of the first thing, then whole set of dominoes fall and I have to go back.
Sometimes for a given thought I even type 3rd of 4th word instead of the first if for some reason my keys are not pressed. And then I type a word from the next thought and etc. It even gives me anxiety.
As I am typing the code, I am thinking about the code that is going to use the it, and then the code one layer up, I also think of the machine itself, its wires, cache lines, or I think of how the variable I am typing now is related to its surroundings, I imagine a ladder to the moon each step with its address, and I think how far are things from "me", and so on.
I cant speak of others, but for me keyboard layout and even key feeling/rythm is important just because it allows me to think uninterrupted.
carlmr
I find fast typing is super important to my programming, not because I need to write walls of text, but because if I get into a flow state, I find it irritating if my thoughts are constrained by my typing speed.
jinay
I used to think that typing speed was not really that important, especially when now we have so many LLMs doing the typing for us. But honestly, now I think it's even more important because the specificity and detail in your prompts are paramount to getting a good response, and something like a dictation tool (which is what I'm using right now) is really good for generating very specific prompts.
In fact, I wrote all this out using a dictation tool in ~20 seconds (258 WPM).
arcanemachiner
Agreed. I installed Whisper on my Linux computer with a program called SpeechNote. The dictation is all done offline, and it is astonishingly good.
I also have a whisper dictation app on my Android phone (the app's ID string is 'org.woheller69.whisper', there's a few Whisper apps with the same name "Whisper", but this one is my favorite).
FWIW this was typed by hand on my phone, but these apps are both amazing.
carlinm
Curious, what dictation tool are you using?
jinay
https://github.com/JinayJain/dictator
Built one for myself. It's context-aware and promptable.
Tested well on Linux, not so much on other platforms but in theory should support them.
It's a bit meta but I wrote it mostly using Claude Code. Once I had an MVP, I was able to prompt much faster by just speaking out what I wanted it to change.
carlmr
Same, 258wpm is something.
arcanemachiner
FYI I wrote a comment in the same thread where I described the tools I use (TLDR: Whisper).
kfrane
Typing speed might not seem that important if you're looking at the speed of typing and the overall amount of code that an engineer produces that ends up in a PR. But it might take 10x more code that are ephemeral versions that lead up to the full solution. If you're very comfortable with typing and editor commands to manipulate code efficiently then you can iterate faster, creating more intermediate versions of the code that then lead to better overall solutions just because you've tried out more stuff.
linsomniac
I recently replaced all my decade old consumer-level battery power tools with contractor-level ones. The old tools were fine to use, but the new ones are just an absolute joy to use. Some of that is just better design and build, some of that is just my perception, but in any case I love using them more.
My "fancy" keyboard is a lot like that. It lets me do some customizations that I really enjoy (ctrl when I hold z and /, esc + win next to a and ', "CAPS WORD", using thumbs for more than just space). I just enjoy using it more. Though it does have a few rough edges I probably need to see if I can fix, I CAN fix them.
I am however thinking that I probably would prefer one of the low-profile ones that is more like a laptop keyboard keys, the regular Cherry Blue desktop keys I feel like I'm tripping over a lot.
yoyohello13
Just because it’s not the main bottleneck doesn’t mean it’s not worth optimizing. Also, yes I have seen devs that type so slowly they really would benefit from learning how to type properly.
I actually switched to an alternative layout and minimal keyboard like this just because it’s fun. If I can make my work day more fun, that’s a win in my book.
spooneybarger
I use a layout like this and I'm slower than on a traditional qwerty layout. OTOH, I also have far fewer RSI problems.
Speed is rarely a consideration in the community.
bowsamic
Changing keyboard ergonomics is absolutely not the way to deal with RSI. You should instead go to the gym and do proper physio exercises
aarroyoc
It's not mutually exclusive but getting into the right posture is key. Otherwise you're just fighting against it constantly. That's why most doctors advise for change of habits as the first thing to look for. This is sometimes difficult as we want to keep doing the same things but changing keyboards ergonomics is a thing you can try. In fact my doctor was the one to suggest that for me.
Most keyboards have not spent a single thought on ergonomics, unlike chairs where it is common. There's not a lot of real research in this area and there are contradicting theories (some physicians even say that creating muscle in certain areas like the neck is not worth in the long term). Microsoft ergonomic keyboards have some studies behind and many people report success on split and column staggered keyboards.
cultofmetatron
> You should instead go to the gym and do proper physio exercises
wish more people would heed this advice. my wrists are jsut as good as when I was in my 20's. in my early thirties I was starting to develop issues. they went away as soon as I started deadlifting and pullups regularly.
danieldk
Going to a split, key well board, solved my wrist issues. I had severe issues on a traditional row stagger keyboard and they have just gone. The only time I feel discomfort is when I type on a row stagger keyboard again for two weeks (e.g. when taking my laptop with me during a trip).
jpc0
If you hand is in a position that is putting any of your anatomy at a weird angle no amount of exercise is going to sort that out.
jerrygenser
If you have small hands and you are stretching for delet/backspace and a small kb allows you to hit this key without strain, it absolutely helps with strain on fingers.
I tried many things over the years including other ergonomics and gym etc.
Changing to a smaller split keyboard helped the most and I have not had pain since.
Granted mine has about 50 keys or so so it's not as extreme.
pandastronaut
I am always amazed by the dedication and craftmanship that keyboard enthusiasts put in their creation.
In the meantime, I have spent my life following the opposite path : minimizing all form of customization so that I can switch computer at any time without feeling lost or missing something ( I have to use computers from several clients all the time).
whartung
I am absolutely in this camp.
I won't say I never customize things, but, 99.99% of things, I do not customize.
I just cope with what's there, make do.
E.g. the limit of my emacs customization is Slime for Lisp (and, honestly, it took me several years to pull that trigger).
Same reason I learned vi a zillion years ago, while my friend was pushing emacs. I had to jump around random Unix boxen as a daily thing, and they weren't mine.
CTDOCodebases
I'm 100% this for software.
Living off the land with minimal customization.
CTDOCodebases
You can do both.
I use to type on 60 key boards using layers but when I switched to using a laptop keyboard it would mess me up as I used caps lock to switch layers and I had a navigation layer that used hjkl for arrows.
So what I changed to a TKL 80 key keyboard for QWERTY and then use Colemak Mod-DH on my split (Cantor Remix).
The result is I can type on both due to the context switch. So if I need to use a QWERTY board I am fine.
Also my golden rule with split keyboards is I only use open source designs. I don't want to invest time into a layout if the keyboard isn't going to be available in the future.
eddd-ddde
On my main keyboard I can activate custom "layers" by holding some special keys, then each layer turns every other key into a special binding.
I have so many shortcuts programmed that whenever I'm working directly on my laptop's keyboard I found myself pressing wrong keys expecting it to do something different. It's really funny how muscle memory works.
lawn
So then you'd have to be comfortable with multiple operating systems, IDEs and to some extent keyboard layouts.
If you use a custom keyboard (and layout) then you only have one extra thing to learn.
I can still use VSCode and a regular keyboard/layout but I still maintain my own custom keyboard layout and highly configured Neovim setup.
mrbenjihao
I feel that most tend to not realize that typing on a keyboard like this actually forces you to type correctly. In the past I've gotten by through my own typing style, however since moving to this type of split keyboard I've found myself using every finger to a much greater degree - especially my pinkies.
cenamus
The navigation and symbol layer (not the limited number of keys) seem very reminiscent of the Neo layouts.
In german, but should be clear enough: https://www.neo-layout.org/
hackernudes
I didn't see any way to type function keys (f1, etc...). I see some of the allure of minimalist keyboards but when I imagine myself using it it seems painful.
CTDOCodebases
The firmware that is loaded on these devices is very configurable.
There are layers and double/quick/long tap keys that can let you add these keys to the layers.
To use keyboard shortcuts though you need to put a lot of thought into the layout and what shortcuts you use.
The payoff is better ergonomics. No bent wrists (if you type that way) and open chest when typing and less slouching. It opens up a multitude of options e.g. mount the keyboard halves to the sides or arms of your desk chair and code on your loungeroom TV or supine computing.
The downsides is the time spend configuring a layout and learning it.
xkriva11
ColorForth environment uses only 27 keys. See https://www.greenarraychips.com/home/documents/greg/cf-edito...
danieldk
Some observations from someone who has also used minimalist layouts on similar keyboards for a while:
- Thumbs can also get overuse. I would generally only recommend to use one key for each thumb very frequently to avoid too much lateral movement. Also don't go overboard with layer holds on thumbs.
- The thumb key placement on some of these boards, e.g. the placement of the inner thumb key on the Ferris-based keyboard in the linked post, is quite disastrous. Unless you have very small hands, the thumb will be very close to the palm or even under the palm, and this can get very painful over longer periods. Even worse is that if you type very fast, the index finger can cross the thumb. Just try it a few times. If you keep your thumb on the thumb key while doing that, there is a lot of tension in the fingers.
- The obsession with minimalist layouts is to minimize finger/hand movement. But I could find not much evidence in the scientific literature that less movement is actually good. It's also a huge trade-off, because you end up with a lot of holds (which are probably not great for your fingers either) or additional key presses (Callum mods). There are also other ways to decrease finger travel, like using a key well keyboard, which not only reduces distances, but also puts your fingers in a more natural resting position and makes the finger movements more natural (since keys are laid out along the natural arcs of the fingers) [1].
I went away from small keyboards and minimalist layouts. I certainly use far fewer keys than most people and some layers. But I have found that key well boards make more keys reachable and have superior ergonomics.
Also, if you have a finger/hand issue as a result of keyboard/mouse use, visit a medical expert, not /r/ergomechkeyboards .
(I am not a health/ergonomics expert, just speaking from experience. Though it's probably best to ignore this and consult an expert.)
[1] There is a lot of pseudo-science in the whole ergo keyboard community, with folk wisdom like "Dactyl-style squeeze thumb clusters are better, because we naturally squeeze our thumbs to grab objects", meanwhile a lot of folks had thumb injuries from that type of cluster. The only types of keyboards that I could find research papers about were Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard-style boards, which seem to have their design decisions grounded in actual human trials and some of the early Maltron keyboards.
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gryn
I started using (programming and everything else) with a 34key keyboard with miryoku layout with inverted T arrow keys & native mouse emulation layer enabled around 2years ago and I haven't looked back. it's more comfortable, it fixed my pathological touch typing too.
for those a want to give it a try, here are my the problems I encountered so far:
- stuff like Figma where you need to keep holding the space bar to change editing modes, won't work you need to make you custom (single purpose) space button if you want it.
- you can't play video games, unless you make you own custom layer or give each game a custom key bindings. I don't game much and when I do I use a gamepad so this haven't been much of a bother for much of bother for me but if you do It's something to keep in mind.
- the MCU boards that are available are very finicky, the nice!nano breaks easily I bought multiple replacements, they are very heat senstive. I had pins die, the charging circuit die on multiple ocasions in different boards. also I think using the mill-max pin was a mistake on my part even if it was the recommendation, they more expensive, annoying and you can't just plug them in a breadboard to test & debug them. on the web there's also an alternative commendation to use the leftover metal parts of the resistances/diodes. I would also recommend against it, with time the connections to the board start disconnecting since you probably won't cut all of them to the same exact length and that they wiggle inside the mill-max pin sockets. just use the standard ones that are used in most PCBs even if they are bigger.
- avoid using jack connectors to connect the sleeves, they can fry your MCUs and when they don't with time they give out and they start to disconnect and need time to reconnect and it makes for a bad user experience.
- if you make a wireless keyboard don't add LED backlights or individual per key LEDs they significantly drain your battery life even when you're not using them.
- Bluetooth connection is still somewhat unreliable, having something with wireless 2,4ghz would be better but I don't think there's an open source solution for that which is off the shelf, so if you want it you'll probably to make your own or tweak something from somewhere else.
I want to make a keyboard like the one that was submitted here a few weeks or months ago that takes these notes into account but I haven't found the time or the motivation. EDIT: this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43255529
I've also seen some people sell some open-source versions in ali express recently for around 60eur pre-assembled. I haven't ordered one so I'm not recommending it, just curious if anyone here ever did.
abhinavk
> - stuff like Figma where you need to keep holding the space bar to change editing modes, won't work you need to make you custom (single purpose) space button if you want it.
https://zmk.dev/docs/keymaps/behaviors/hold-tap#quick-tap-ms should work.
Discussed at the time:
Programming on 34 Keys - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32648245 - Aug 2022 (69 comments)