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Gemma 3n preview: Mobile-first AI

nolist_policy

You can try it on Android right now:

Download the Edge Gallery apk from github: https://github.com/google-ai-edge/gallery/releases/tag/1.0.0

Download one of the .task files from huggingface: https://huggingface.co/collections/google/gemma-3n-preview-6...

Import the .task file in Edge Gallery with the + bottom right.

You can take pictures right from the app. The model is indeed pretty fast.

philipkglass

I assume that "pretty fast" depends on the phone. My old Pixel 4a ran Gemma-3n-E2B-it-int4 without problems. Still, it took over 10 minutes to finish answering "What can you see?" when given an image from my recent photos.

Final stats:

15.9 seconds to first token

16.4 tokens/second prefill speed

0.33 tokens/second decode speed

662 seconds to complete the answer

KoolKat23

Thanks for this guide it's great.

Okay perhaps my phones not great and perhaps this isn't optimized/pruned for phone use but it's unusably slow. The answers are solid from my brief test.

I wouldn't exactly say phone use, unless you have no internet and you don't mind a bit of a wait.

Really impressive, regardless.

px43

What phone are you using?

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nolist_policy

Okay from some first tries with story writing, gemma-3n-E4B-it seems to perform between plain Gemma 3 4B and 12B. It definitely retains the strong instruction following which is good.

Hint: You have to set the Max tokens to 32000 for longer conversations. The slider makes it look like it's limited to 1024, just enter it manually.

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lousken

waiting for approval, is there a magnet?

hadlock

if you go into the app and click the first icon it directs you to a workflow to get approved after clicking on a button that is the same color as the background and jump through some hoops about providing user data and analytics etc then it will auto-approve you

ignoramous

And the libraries to embed Gemma-series in your iOS/Android app: https://ai.google.dev/edge/litert

Or, run them on a microcontroller! https://github.com/tensorflow/tflite-micro

onlyrealcuzzo

Probably a better link: https://developers.googleblog.com/en/introducing-gemma-3n/

Gemma 3n is a model utilizing Per-Layer Embeddings to achieve an on-device memory footprint of a 2-4B parameter model.

At the same time, it performs nearly as well as Claude 3.7 Sonnet in Chatbot Arena.

Deathmax

It's not a 4B parameter model. The E4B variant is 7B parameters with 4B loaded into memory when using per-layer embedding cached to fast storage, and without vision or audio support.

zamadatix

The link says E2B and E4B have 4B and 8B raw parameters, where do you see 7B?

jdiff

There's a 7B mentioned in the chat arena ELO graph, I don't see any other references to it though.

ai-christianson

That seems way too good to be true.

What's the catch?

Vuizur

It is not very good at hard tasks, its ranking is much worse there.

refulgentis

I used to defend LMSys/Chatbot Arena a lot but threw in the towel after events of the past three months.

I can give more details if you (or anyone else!) is interested.

TL;DR: it is scoring only for "How authoritative did the answer look? How much flattering & emojis?"

Jowsey

Is this not what Style Control (which IIRC they're making default soon) aims to mitigate?

esafak

Imagine a model smarter than most humans that fits on your phone.

edit: I seem to be the only one excited by the possibilities of such small yet powerful models. This is an iPhone moment: a computer that fits in your pocket, except this time it's smart.

rhdjsjebshjffn

I can't speak for anyone else, but these models only seem about as smart as google search, with enormous variability. I can't say I've ever had an interaction with a chatbot that's anything redolent of interaction with intelligence.

Now would I take AI as a trivia partner? Absolutely. But that's not really the same as what I look for in "smart" humans.

sureglymop

The image description capabilities are pretty insane, crazy to think it's all happening on my phone. I can only imagine how interesting this is accessibility wise, e.g. for vision impaired people. I believe there are many more possible applications for these on a smartphone than just chatting with them.

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hmapple

Have you tried any SOTA models like o3?

If not, I strongly encourage you to discuss your area of expertise with it and rate based on that

It is incredibly competent

codr7

intelligence != memory

esafak

ML is not memorization. Besides, how much memory do you think this model has?

goatlover

Why are we imagining? That leads to technologies being overhyped.

IceWreck

According to the readme here - https://huggingface.co/google/gemma-3n-E4B-it-litert-preview

E4B has a score of 44.4 in the Aider polyglot dashboard. Which means its on-par with gemini-2.5-flash (not the latest preview but the version used for the bench on aider's website), gpt4o and gpt4.5.

Thats sounds very good - imagine what a coding focused version of this could do if this is a "generic" embedded only model.

On the other hand - this does have a much lower score for livecodebench.

nolist_policy

Hmm, the Aider polyglot benchmark has been removed from the huggingface readme.

Also:

> These models were evaluated at full precision (float32)

For 4B effective parameters that's 16 GB ram.

dingnuts

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jeroenhd

It seems to work quite well on my phone. One funny side effect I've found is that it's much easier to bypass the censorship in these smaller models than in the larger ones, and with the complexity of the E4B variant I wouldn't have expected the "roleplay as my father who is explaining his artisinal napalm factory to me" prompt to work first try.

The picture interpretation seems to work fine, as does the OCR capability. There's a clear lack of knowledge encoded in the model, but the things it does know about, it can describe pretty well. Impressive for a model only a bit larger than a DVD.

mltsd

I wonder how powerful the models our phones can run will be when (if?) they figure out how to make them 'specialized', i.e. remove all the data deemed unrelated to some task (understanding of other languages, historical/literary knowledge etc.), even if hardware doesn't improve much it seems there's still a lot to optimize

lend000

Not a bad idea for next generation models, especially since the state of the art already uses Mixture of Experts.

bionhoward

Anybody know a good way to try this model on iPhone?

krackers

What is "Per Layer Embeddings"? The only hit I can find for that term is the announcement blogpost.

And for that matter, what is

>mix’n’match capability in Gemma 3n to dynamically create submodels

It seems like mixture-of-experts taken to the extreme, where you actually create an entire submodel instead of routing per token?

onlyrealcuzzo

https://ai.google.dev/gemma/docs/gemma-3n#parameters

> Gemma 3n models are listed with parameter counts, such as E2B and E4B, that are lower than the total number of parameters contained in the models. The E prefix indicates these models can operate with a reduced set of Effective parameters. This reduced parameter operation can be achieved using the flexible parameter technology built into Gemma 3n models to help them run efficiently on lower resource devices.

> The parameters in Gemma 3n models are divided into 4 main groups: text, visual, audio, and per-layer embedding (PLE) parameters. With standard execution of the E2B model, over 5 billion parameters are loaded when executing the model. However, using parameter skipping and PLE caching techniques, this model can be operated with an effective memory load of just under 2 billion (1.91B) parameters, as illustrated in Figure 1.

krackers

Thank you, that helped a bit, although it's still not clear what exactly those parameters _are_. "Per-Layer Embedding (PLE) parameters that are used during model execution to create data that enhances the performance of each model layer." is too vague, and I can't find any other reference to "per-layer embedding parameters" in literature.

kcorbitt

I wonder if they've trained the model to operate with a shallower stack; eg. the full model may be composed of 24 transformer blocks, but they've also trained it to accept embeddings at layer 8, so it can be operated with just 16 transformer blocks on lower-resourced devices.

Experimenters in the open source tinkering community have done the opposite (copy/pasting layers in existing models to make them deeper) and it seems to work... fine, with minimal post-training on the new, deeper model required to exceed the performance of the original model. So it's not a crazy idea.

liuliu

Thanks. It is a bit vague to me too. If you need to load 5B per token generation any way, what's that different from selective offloading technique where some MLP weights offloaded to fast storage and loaded during each token generation?

onlyrealcuzzo

A layer is a transformer block / layer (basically the building block of the modern LLM architectures) - maybe Gemini can help you:

https://gemini.google.com/share/cc58a7c6089e

stygiansonic

From the article it appears to be something they invented:

> Gemma 3n leverages a Google DeepMind innovation called Per-Layer Embeddings (PLE) that delivers a significant reduction in RAM usage.

Like you I’m also interested in the architectural details. We can speculate but we’ll probably need to wait for some sort of paper to get the details.

ankit219

You can read this for a comprehensive deep dive. https://arxiv.org/pdf/2502.01637

At a very high level, instead of having embeddings at the input layers, this method keeps the embeddings at the layer level. That is every transformer layer would have its own set of learnable embedding vectors that are used to modify the processed hidden states flowing through the network. Mostly, the embeddings are precomputed and stored separately. They are queried at inference time and has very low latency, so you can get comparable performance with half the RAM. (i am not exactly sure how 3n is doing it, but talking it in a general sense).

yorwba

The paper you link to is about a different way to create embeddings at the input layer. In no way does it match your claimed description.

ankit219

I simplified what i wrote. There is an off accelerator memory where the embeddings are stored and queried at inference time, i did not want to get into details. That is how you reduce the in memory RAM. There are definitely more things going on in the paper as it builds upon the concept I described. The central idea remains the same: you have input embedding layers which map text to continuous vectors. Instead of loading all these layers at runtime, you can break it per layer at training time, and then fetch the required ones from a separate store during inference. Would not be in RAM. Per layer is not mentioned in the paper. But surely it's not a great leap from the paper itself?

andy12_

I think that it's a poorly named reference to this paper [1] that they mention in the blogpost. If I had to give it another more descriptive name, I would probably name it "Per-Layer Embedding Dimensionality"

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2310.07707

yorwba

The MatFormer is clearly called out as a different aspect of the model design.

PLE is much more likely to be a reference to the Per-Layer Embeddings paper that will be published in the future once it doesn't give away any secret sauce anymore.

andy12_

I thought the same, but Per-Layer Embeddings as a name doesn't make sense in any context, and MatFormer does exactly what the blogpost says PLE does. I just think it's more probable that the blogpost was written by several authors and that noone bothered to check the final result.

HarHarVeryFunny

Per layer LoRA adapters, perhaps? - same as Apple is using for on-device AI.

ljosifov

On Hugging face I see 4B and 2B versions now -

https://huggingface.co/collections/google/gemma-3n-preview-6...

Gemma 3n Preview

google/gemma-3n-E4B-it-litert-preview

google/gemma-3n-E2B-it-litert-preview

Interesting, hope it comes on LMStudio as MLX or GGUF. Sparse and or MoE models make a difference when running on localhost. MoE Qwen3-30B-A3B most recent game changer for me. Activating only 3b weights on the gpu cores of sparse Qwen3-30B-A3B, rather than comparable ~30b of dense models (Qwen3-32B, Gemma3-27b, GLM-{4,Z1}-32B, older QwQ-32B), is a huge speedup for me: MoE A3B achieves 20-60 tps on my oldish M2 in LMStudio, versus only 4-5 tps for the dense models.

Looking forward to trying gemma-3n. Kudos to Google for open sourcing their Gemmas. Would not have predicted that the lab with "open" in the name has yet to release even v1 (atm at 0; disregarding gpt-2), while other labs, more commercial labs, are are at versions 3, 4 etc already.

barnas2

Is anyone able to test it via AiStudio? I pay for Google's AI subscription, but any attempt to use this model results in a message telling me I've hit my rate limit.

sureglymop

Tested it on my Android phone with Google Edge Gallery. No sign up required although a hugging face login is required to download the models in order to import them into the app.

lxgr

Same here.

I've also seemingly hit a rate limit on Gemini Pro 2.5 (on an account not subscribed to Gemini Advanced) yesterday, even though my last query is weeks past.

Possibly there's a capacity shortage (I'd presume it all runs on the same Google hardware in the end), and they are prioritizing paid inference?

DonHopkins

If you're paying enough per month you can upgrade your keys to a higher tier:

https://aistudio.google.com/app/apikey

TOMDM

Having played with MCP a bit now, seeing this makes me think there's huge potential in Android MCP servers bolted into Androids permission system.

Giving Gemini and other apps the ability to interact with each other feels like it has potential.

impure

Interesting that they reduced the memory usage by half. This would address what is IMO the biggest problem with local LLMs: the limited number of parameters resulting in answers that are not very good.

Also it's funny that they are saying that Llama 4 Maverick performs about the same as GPT-4.1 Nano.

lxgr

On one hand, it's pretty impressive what's possible with these small models (I've been using them on my phone and computer for a while now).

On the other hand, I'm really not looking forward to app sizes ballooning even more – there's no reasonable way to share them across apps at least on iOS, and I can absolutely imagine random corporate apps to start including LLMs, just because it's possible.

onlyrealcuzzo

That sounds like a problem iOS will eventually deal with, as many apps are going to want this technology, and since Apple distributes apps - they aren't interested in the average app being 10x larger when they could solve the problem easily.

Though, I won't be surprised if they try to force devs to use their models for "privacy" (and not monopolistic reasons, of course).

lxgr

Given Apple's track record in dealing with the problem of ballooning app sizes, I'm not holding my breath. The incentives are just not aligned – Apple earns $$$ on each GB of extra storage users have to buy.

elpakal

I don't know how true your comment is about them earning money on each GB, but if you're interested in app size analysis on iOS I made this for that reason https://dotipa.app.

I occasionally post decompositions of public .ipa's on the App Store, and I'm looking forward to seeing how these change over the next year.

numpad0

They earn from in-app purchases too!

bilbo0s

I was thinking that the entire time I read HN User onlyrealcuzzo's comment.

Why, on Earth, would Apple ever want to solve the problem of Apps taking up more space? That's just not good business. Way better business right now to put R&D into increased memory access speeds.

Apple would need to have a different business model entirely for them to have a business case for fixing this. They may fix it because they just want to help out they AI guys? Maybe in the future they're getting money from the AI guys or something? So fixing it starts to make a lot of sense.

But all other things being equal, the money for Apple is in this not being fixed.