AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence
86 comments
·May 2, 2025dweinus
sincerecook
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qoez
I wish there was tighter rules around what stays on the front page of HN. I come here for tech news or interesting nerdy blog posts not this stuff.
PurpleRamen
Talking about the situation of potential workplaces/countries is legit here IMHO. There are many tech workers living or planing to live in other countries on this site. And several complaints in the last years about Germany were about the growing hostility from the extreme right. This is a step in a good direction. But it won't solve the problems in general.
flohofwoe
Not much worse than every other post being about AI bullshit tbh.
josefritzishere
I have the same complaint. If AI can automate a whoopie cushion it gets a post.
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BobaFloutist
God forbid we add a tagging system that lets you blacklist tags.
Then again, I have the same complaint about reddit (which has flairs, but doesn't let you blacklist them because then you'd be able to filter out all the ragebait)
thrance
Those posts generally don't stay there more than a few minutes. Feel free to hide them. But I agree with you on a point, I wish it was better specified which kinds of politics are allowed or not and when.
Edit: aaand it's flagged.
nataliste
I finally got fed up yesterday and wrote a userscript so I can just silently block the offenders, their links, and their comments in perpetuity. It's a load off my mind.
Jackpillar
[flagged]
froh
this is relevant on HN because AfD is the political party that got massive campaigning support by Musk, directly through endorsements and indirectly on X/twitter.
DarkWiiPlayer
> They argued their party was being "discredited and criminalised" shortly before the change of government.
The AfD is known for their narratives of perpetual victimhood. They conveniently ignore any and all proof, and hope that their followers only get their information from them. It has worked great so far so it'll probably continue to work.
tharmas
The more austerity for the people the more popular extremist parties will become. Banning them will just stoke the fire.
The ruling clases are blinded by their greed. Throw the starving people more than a few crumbs and the appeal of extremist parties will drain away. Its politics 101.
archagon
Except the extremist parties intend to impoverish the people even further. (And don't even bother hiding it, for the most part.)
dlachausse
I’m not a German so take this with a massive amount of salt, but what makes them extreme-right? Is it the anti-immigrant stance or is there more that I’m missing? They just seem to be regular right wing by American standards.
T0Bi
The party's prevailing ethnic and descent-based understanding of the people is not compatible with the free democratic basic order. It aims to exclude certain population groups from equal participation in society, to subject them to unequal treatment that does not conform to the constitution and thus to assign them a legally devalued status. Specifically, the AfD does not consider German citizens with a history of migration from Muslim countries, for example, to be equal members of the German people as defined by the party in ethnic terms.
This exclusionary understanding of the people is the starting point and ideological basis for continuous agitation against certain people or groups of people, with which they are defamed and disparaged across the board and irrational fears and rejection of them are stirred up. This can be seen in the large number of ongoing anti-foreigner, anti-minority, anti-Islam and anti-Muslim statements made by leading party functionaries.
Translated via deepl from https://www.verfassungsschutz.de/SharedDocs/pressemitteilung...
sincerecook
The interesting question is why having a different definition of the German people than "anyone who happened to come here and has lived here for a while" should be considered an extreme position. Throwing out all history and ancestry as a core component of the identity of a group of people seems rather like the extreme view.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF
It seems like the difference is between a cultural understanding and a legal one. The legal bar to be considered German is citizenship, which is what is being discussed in the context of a political party's official policy.
It would be an extreme view to say a person who immigrated to Germany and recently attained citizenship has more German ancestry than someone who was born in Germany to parents who were born in Germany but I don't think anyone is saying that. The point is just that "unequal German" doesn't make sense because German is referring to citizenship; it's either "German" or "not German", never "German, but lesser".
flohofwoe
The 'core feature' to get the extremist label (no matter if left- or right-extremist) is the goal to overthrow the 'Liberal democratic basic order':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democratic_basic_order
lostlogin
Regarding the AfD, ‘Senior members have been disgraced for playing down Nazi war crimes and accepting suspicious payments from Russia and China.
There were calls to ban the party when it was reported party members were at a meeting of neo-Nazis where a “master plan” to expel millions of people from Germany was discussed, including asylum seekers, foreigners with residency rights and “unassimilated citizens”.
The AfD were shut out of coalition government by the “firewall”, an agreement by mainstream parties not to work with those deemed too extreme.
JD Vance, the US vice-president, criticised the firewall as anti-democratic.’ [0]
There is plenty more on the subject [1, 2, 3, 4].
> They just seem to be regular right wing by American standards.
This might be a comment on the state of American politics as much as it is on Germany’s.
[0] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/05/02/afd-classi...
[1] https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-jd-vance-is-wrong-about-afd...
[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx88nwy934go
[3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/25/afd-readmits-t...
[4] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-02/german-spy-agency-lab...
tharmas
>accepting suspicious payments from Russia
Do you really think the Russians would ever support a Neo Nazi party after what happened in WW2?
That's propaganda.
flohofwoe
The current Russian government supports every movement that may help to destabilize Europe, extreme left or extreme right ideologies only matter to them as a tool for targeting specific demographics by their propaganda industry.
froh
"extreme right" is a super set of "nazi". Putin is extreme right and not a nazi. Netanjahu is considered right extreme, certainly he is not a nazi. the list goes on.
tastyface
Are you kidding? The Russian ruling class *adores* the global far-right. They don't see them as Nazis, but as kin.
boudin
A pretty big clue is in the article: >>> "The ethnicity- and ancestry-based understanding of the people prevailing within the party is incompatible with the free democratic order," the domestic intelligence agency said in a statement.
PurpleRamen
Do you consider Trump as regular right wing? Or more extreme? Do you think the deportations of "illegals" happening at the moment are justified? What about deportations on legals non-white people?
The main reason for the classification seems to be their worldview based on "Blood" and what they consider as a "True German", and how they want to deport (or worse) anyone who does not match this view. Their plans are similar to what is happening under Trump now, but some steps further.
And lets not talk about all the other s** around culture and science. But these are not illegal.
dlachausse
Trump is complicated. He doesn't neatly fit into the boxes that our politicians usually fit in. He's neither fully right nor fully left. As I have said elsewhere, I think the left versus right wing distinction is no longer suitable for talking about the current political climate. The traditional politicians from both parties despise him. The Republican rank and file have only accepted him because of his massive popularity. For example, his stimulus checks are definitely a left-wing idea. If I had to label him I would say that he is a right-wing populist.
I'm not sure why you scare quoted illegals. I refuse to use the Orwellian Newspeak that is "undocumented." They have "documents." Just not ones that give them any right to legally be in our country, hence why illegal is the correct term.
The Biden administration encouraged mass illegal immigration into our country on unprecedented scale and it has resulted in a lot of very serious problems, so yes extreme deportation measures are absolutely justified. There are several cases of people who have been violently assaulted or even murdered by violent gang members and criminals who came here illegally. There are people who have suffered horrifically for this and people who would still be alive today if our immigration laws had been properly enforced. Even many of the illegal immigrants themselves are suffering as victims of sex trafficking, poverty wages, indentured servitude, or dying of heat exhaustion in false panels of vehicles that are smuggling them into the country packed like sardines.
Adding to that, they are a costly strain upon our infrastructure and social support systems. Car insurance premiums rose due to the massive rise in uninsured motorists. They have exacerbated already sky high housing costs because they need to live somewhere. When they get sick they go to the emergency room because they lack health insurance. Some of you will say, well that's why you should just have socialized medicine, but it ignores the point that we do not have socialized medicine, which means that someone has to foot the bill for their ER visits for non-emergency medical care. Many of them turn to crime because their opportunities for legal employment are non-existent. They are also a burden on our already struggling public education system, particularly since so many of them do not speak fluent English. They also depress wages. There is a myth that they perform jobs that Americans don't want to do. The truth is that they perform jobs for cheaper than Americans are willing to do them.
dweinus
> They just seem to be regular right wing by American standards.
Correct, both have an agenda of subverting the rule of law to violate human rights of immigrants, under a flag of white nationalism. There is a single word for this.
tharmas
Strongly disagree. Most right wing populist parties' policies are very pro worker. Right wing parties in USA see these policies as "socialist", anathema.
MildlySerious
In simple terms, Trump's current administration is the AfD's wet dream. Talk big about free speech and free market, state's rights, cracking down on immigration, all the populist talking points. Then play the victim whenever things don't work out, dismantle regulatory bodies and oversight committees, and selectively apply the law depending on loyalty and conformity.
throw123xz
> They just seem to be regular right wing by American standards.
Sorry for the throwaway, but has Europe moved too much to the left that AfD seems like a far-right party or has America moved too much to the right that something like AfD and Trump seem like "regular right"?
The fact you have neo-nazis supporting this "regular right" should tell you that at least some of the talking points fit their views.
Something else that we should keep in mind is that there are politicians in Europe that have views similar to Bush, Nixon, etc, and I don't see anyone calling them "far-right". Conservative? Yes. Not far-right.
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Simulacra
This is ridiculous, it's subjective, and it's really punitive in a political way. The AFD has made huge gains in Germany, the people voted for that, how dare the intelligence service say oh, this is far right. It's the same as if they had said, it was far left. The government has no business in deciding which party can field candidates. That's the voters to choose.
froh
that's not how that works. they were under active investigation for years already, and it took until now to gather and evaluate the evidence.
they want to overthrow the foundations of the constitutions. turn human rights back into birthright citizen rights and then likes.
that's why they are considered right extreme.
the election outcome is much more a success if their campaigning on slander platforms and bubble platforms like X and tiktok.
Musks very actively supported their campaign not just through personal public endorsement but also through active support on X.
jimkoen
This is ridiculous, it's subjective, and it's really punitive in a political way. The NSDAP has made huge gains in Germany, the people voted for that, how dare the intelligence service say oh, this is far right. It's the same as if they had said, it was far left. The government has no business in deciding which party can field candidates. That's the voters to choose.
incomingpain
Guess this will be unpopular.
>The AfD came second in federal elections in February, winning a record 152 seats in the 630-seat parliament with 20.8% of the vote.
What does this give german intelligence the power to do?
The german government is now monitoring the telephone, internet, and intercepting emails of their political opponents?
They MAY also be using informants and undercover agents?
The federal ministry of the interior MAY confiscate all the party's assets and shutdown everything including their websites?
stop50
1. Its in the law for decades, it is derived from the constitution 2+3: yes. After they have been declared as extremists this is permitted under the law. 4. Only after the Bundesverfassungsgericht (supreme court) officially rules that the AFD is working against the constitution and forbids them. This must be initiated from the Bundestag, Bundesrat or from the Federal Government.
sjsdaiuasgdia
And these exist specifically to prevent a repeat of how Hitler did what he did.
> Following his failed Beer Hall Putsch of November 1923, Hitler had renounced trying to overthrow the Weimar Republic by violent means but not his commitment to destroying the country’s democratic system, a determination he reiterated in a Legalitätseid—“legality oath”—before the Constitutional Court in September 1930. Invoking Article 1 of the Weimar constitution, which stated that the government was an expression of the will of the people, Hitler informed the court that once he had achieved power through legal means, he intended to mold the government as he saw fit. It was an astonishingly brazen statement.
> “So, through constitutional means?” the presiding judge asked.
> “Jawohl!” Hitler replied.
aaronbaugher
The establishment is working itself up to banning the party, since they're losing the ability to shut it out of the process democratically, and haven't had the sense to co-opt its reasonable positions to reduce its support. One of the other main parties tried to do that before the last election, showing a slight willingness to put some limits on migration, and the further-left parties went ballistic on them, so they quickly yanked that back. Their last resort will be to ban the party, which will inevitably make it more popular while preventing it from participating in the normal process. Then they'll act surprised by what happens next.
mamonster
In theory, this could be used as the basis for the banning of the party. That said , I don't think the incoming government would allow it as Germany isn't super stable at the moment.
At a minimum, this will be used as the basis for removing any talk of coalitions/joint votes etc within the CDU, so Merz or anyone after him can't attempt to go around the Brandmauer(mind you, this will be enforced by the parties themselves, not via law or anything). You can expect the same thing as with FN/RN in France before the developments within the last 2 years, i.e any right wing party not voting resolutions that are submitted by AfD even if they are 95% identical to what is in their own programme.
I think the likely action is that they will attempt to "purge" the Flügel part of the party, with or without the help of Weidel.For example, Marine Le Pen purged the problematic elements of the old guard of FN by herself and "normalised" the party within 10 years.
vladvasiliu
> You can expect the same thing as with FN/RN in France before the developments within the last 2 years, i.e any right wing party not voting resolutions that are submitted by AfD even if they are 95% identical to what is in their own programme.
But I think this contributes to the general distrust of the population towards incumbent politicians.
I don't know about Germany, but in France the situation becomes ridiculous to the point of resembling a bunch of kindergarten kids: "I won't vote for your law 'cause I don't like you".
And now, whenever you don't like somebody, they're helpfully some "extremist", so they obviously can't propose anything good.
If everyone's an extremist, that word soon loses its meaning. See: the boy who cried wolf. People are getting tired of this crap and can see trying to outlaw a growing party for "extremism" as a shameless political tactic. Which means actual extremists may go unnoticed.
MaKey
> If everyone's an extremist, that word soon loses its meaning. See: the boy who cried wolf. People are getting tired of this crap and can see trying to outlaw a growing party for "extremism" as a shameless political tactic. Which means actual extremists may go unnoticed.
What makes you think that the AfD isn't a right-wing extremist party?
Freak_NL
Not sure what your point is. The AfD is not the first extreme right party to gain a sizeable number of seats. And yes, if they continue to win elections with an ever growing percentage of votes, at one point they will rule, and could eventually change the constitution if they gain a supermajority.
This happened before (it's a been a while though).
Until that happens, they are beholden to the law like any other political party. They do not appear to be singled out because they happen to be the opposition.
incomingpain
>Not sure what your point is. The AfD is not the first extreme right party to gain a sizeable number of seats.
Firstly I get the nazi thing and the laws are set to prevent another instance.
AFD obviously still exists so a court has not banned them. Innocent until proven guilty.
The flipside problem is that these anti-nazi measures can be abused, false positive type situation. The measures would of course need to be biased toward false-postives to prevent future false negatives.
>Until that happens, they are beholden to the law like any other political party. They do not appear to be singled out because they happen to be the opposition.
I guess that's where i disagree. It looks like to me that the politicians are abusing powers. That the afd growth of doubling their power since last election and AFD is now polling in first place.
So to win the next election they need to essentially remove AFD from being an option; or lose.
danhor
> AFD obviously still exists so a court has not banned them. Innocent until proven guilty.
A court can only ban them after the parliament has voted to ban them. One of the hurdles on getting the parliament to vote on this topic has been the outstanding decision by this body, if it's really "gesichert rechtsextrem". At least in many previous cases surrounding this question (mostly libel cases), courts have argued that the specific people these cases were about could be seen as "outside of the democratic spectrum".
> The measures would of course need to be biased toward false-postives to prevent future false negatives.
Certainly, that's why both the parliament and the highest court have to decide, with previous instances sometimes not coming through (for example, the NPD for not being relevant even though they were certainly Nazis).
> That the afd growth of doubling their power since last election and AFD is now polling in first place. So to win the next election they need to essentially remove AFD from being an option; or los
There would be no reason to ban a party if they could be ignored (see the NPD), you only need to ban extreme parties if they're popular. If the AfD were at 3% this would be a much smaller topic, since there would be no foreseeable risk. But even with the AfD at much lower than <15%, this was very much an area of concern, with steady (legal, as with this classification and previous ones concerning subgroups) progress towards establishing their extremist status.
detaro
Now the election is over and everyone has decided that they really don't want to form a government with them, the agencies are suddenly allowed to state the obvious without potentially embarrassing their future bosses.
flohofwoe
This has been cooking for a very long time (pretty much since the AfD was founded in 2013, and some federal chapters of the AfD (like the Thuringian AfD under Hoecke [1], the Saxon AfD [2]) and five 'AfD Youth' federal chapters already earned the 'extreme-right' classification before [3]. The news is only that now the entire AfD is classified as extreme-right (to nobody's surprise).
The AfD also isn't the first party which got the label, the AfD is just the latest reincarnation of the NPD (since the 1960s) and the so-called Republicans ('Die Republikaner') since the 1980s. There's also various smaller splinter-organizations which are more openly right-extremist than the AfD but at best play a minor role in municipal elections).
[1] https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/thueringen/afd-rechtsextremis...
[2] https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/deutschland/afd-sachs...
[3] https://www.rnd.de/politik/wo-gelten-afd-und-junge-alternati...
stop50
Announcing this is considered an interference with the elections, so they delayed the announcement.
roenxi
Given that AfD represents ~20.8% of the vote, 25% of the Bundestag and have upwards trending poll numbers; we can probably start talking about the collapse of democracy in Germany if they aren't allowed to engage politically as any other party. These numbers are too large to ignore.
I wish the Germans the best of luck and reiterate that declaring war on their own energy supply was probably a mistake.
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thrance
So, tell me again how you'll be preventing the "collapse of democracy" by not condemning the anti-democratic party?
roenxi
I'm not sure I follow the double negative there, but once intelligence agencies get involved condemnation doesn't mean much.
celsoazevedo
This classification was made by the BfV[0], created in the 50s. They're tasked with finding extreme groups (right and left) that might present a threat to Germany's democracy.
Now, if this should happen and all that, I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be a new thing in Germany (or in other countries like the US where the FBI classifies groups too). In any case and independently of my political views, I can see why a country with Germany's past flags anything that leaves the centre of the political spectrum. I also can see why they're paying attention to this party... their positions about Russia, funding, etc, should raise some red flags.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Office_for_the_Protect...
throw123xz
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Huh, I guess they did Not See this coming.