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Neutron Stars Hint at Another Dimension

the__alchemist

> Gravity, the thinking goes, can escape our brane and extend into the bulk. That explains why it’s so weak. All the other forces must play in only three spatial dimensions, while gravity can extend itself out to four, spreading itself much too thin in the process.

Wouldn't this cause gravitational force to fall off with distance using something other than an inverse-square law? I think this explanation would be a better fit for the weak force than gravity for this reason. Thoughts?

More broadly: inverse-square behavior (Gravity, EM etc) strikes me as an intrinsic property of 3D geometry; more so of a tell of dimensionality than the magnitude of the force. (I believe the article is inferring higher dimensionality from relative magnitude, vice distance falloff)

ktrask

Yes, exactly. That is why we think the extra dimensions might be small, und the inverse square law is only violated at and below the size of the extra dimensions. This is also why we are using the Yukawa Potential to constrain that possibility, because it has a length scale and a strength of a potential deviation from the inverse square law. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_force

baxtr

How can a dimension be smaller compared to other dimensions?

codethief

It could be a compact[0] dimension, i. e. of finite length. In the simplest case you might imagine it as a circle attached to every point in our 3-dimensional Euclidean space. The aforementioned length scale would be the circumference of that circle.

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_space

DennisP

Imagine if Flatland were a very long string in a big circle. In one direction you go around the big circle and it's a long distance. At a right angle to that, you go around a tiny little circle.

mnky9800n

Why does the extra dimension need to be small?

addaon

Because gravity will be observed to decay with distance cubed for distances on the scale of the extra dimension, and distance squared beyond that; and we have not found a scale where we see gravity decay faster than distance squared (but it gets harder and harder to measure at small scale, so the error bars grow).

ben_w

If it was big, you could see it.

IIRC experimental gravity data rules out any compactified dimension bigger than 50μm, but a question I keep coming back to is "surely the pictures of atomic bonds taken by electron microscopes rules compactified dimensions larger than 1Å?"

dr_dshiv

Fun fact: Newton attributed the inverse square law to Pythagoras. It’s esoteric, but it relates to harmony of the spheres and the fact that the weight/tension of a string has an inverse square relation to tone. More here, in this Royal Society article: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250902005_Newton_an...

mariusor

I wonder if a higher dimension could also be the explanation for extra mass in the universe instead of dark matter. It's outside our perceptible space, but it still exists as mass, poking through into black holes or gently resting on the skin of our 3d volume.

PaulHoule

The weird thing about it though is that whatever the dark matter is it has to be spread out. It couldn’t be little planets or brown dwarfs or burned out stars (in a hidden dimension or not) because we’d see more gravitational lensing events than we do

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MACHO_Project

naasking

> The weird thing about it though is that whatever the dark matter is it has to be spread out.

In fact, they'd have to be so spread out that rotation curves remain flat past a million light years [1]. There seems to be no plausible particle dark matter distribution that can satisfy all of the necessary constraints at this point.

[1] https://tritonstation.com/2024/06/18/rotation-curves-still-f...

the__alchemist

After digging a bit into astromy, computationally myself... There are some heavy assumptions used in the functions that maps pixels to mass densities. Outsider's 2c, but I assess a misalignment between CDM confidence in papers, and this mapping.

raxxorraxor

I thought dark matter was only observed through movements of matter within galaxies. Outer layers of spiral galaxies are observed to move faster than they should, so there has to be additional gravity and therefore mass that binds them on their (fast) orbits around the center.

Perhaps there is a negative gravity outside of galaxies where space seems to bubble out of nowhere anyway and the universe is expanding.

This seems as an attempt to combine gravity with the standard model again, which in my very amateurish understanding comes with multiple extra dimensions anyway. Isn't the higgs field basically a recently discovered additional dimension already? Among the other forms of particles that can be seen as an excitation of fields that compose these dimensions.

But for extreme cases like neutron stars or black holes, we probably do need to combine these theories since gravity is a main reason these objects exist in the first place. And also isn't a curvature of space not already be an additional dimension as well? It would be mathematically as I understand it.

JumpCrisscross

I guess it also implies the extra dimensions aren't massive. Unless that's the explanation for unexplained gravitation.

p_ing

If anyone wants a super approachable lecture on Neutron stars, this was released just a couple of weeks ago - https://youtu.be/I12SQ7YOebY

superjan

That was a great watch, thanks!

amai

Extra dimensions are always a desperate measure. If you add them to your theory you open up a huge parameter space, because you have no clue about the number, size and topology of the extra dimensions. What is missing is a real physical symmetry or reason that would enforce the existence of extra dimensions and on the other side restricts its geometry and topology.

Just adding more parameters to your theory will allow you to overfit the data better, but that does not mean you understand more about nature.

whatever1

Far from expert in the field, but assuming that gravity is acts in a 3+ND and we observe it in our 3D world, shouldn't we observe weird peculiarities with it rather that just its amplitude?

Think that you live on a line, and you see projections of a 2d object doing circles on top of you. You would see the shade moving and changing sizes in a non-explainable manner to you.

mystified5016

We do observe really weird gravitational effects. Dark matter, for instance. Under Newtonian and Einsteinian physics, galaxies shouldn't be able to form in the way we observe. The way galaxies and their contents move makes no sense with our present understanding of gravity-- unless we assume there's a lot more mass. So we invented dark matter as a sort of placeholder variable to make the math make sense.

More anomalies: simply being near a large gravitational field alters the flow of time. Frame dragging around black holes (spacetime itself twists into a rotating spiral). The final parsec problem (co-orbiting black holes bleeding energy as gravitational waves). And don't forget the gravitational singularity of a black hole.

But perhaps the most important thing to know is that we've only just gained the ability to examine gravitational waves. Once we build more detectors (especially LISA), we'll probably discover a lot more is wrong with our understanding of gravity.

nathan_compton

> More anomalies: simply being near a large gravitational field alters the flow of time. Frame dragging around black holes (spacetime itself twists into a rotating spiral). The final parsec problem (co-orbiting black holes bleeding energy as gravitational waves). And don't forget the gravitational singularity of a black hole.

These are not really anomalies per se - they are predicted by the relatively well tested theory of GR and (except for the singularity part) also experimentally observable. They are weird from our point of view, but not weird to contemporary physics.

mrkstu

From recent discussion though it seems as though the time dilation effects or that time itself moves differently in different patches of spacetime- that could remove the need altogether for dark energy/dark matter:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/mar/09/controversia...

throwawaymaths

I thought the final parsec problem is that co orbiting black holes can't have accretion discs which makes GW the only way for them to inspiral, and that's way too slow for us to have seen any.

khazhoux

> The way galaxies and their contents move makes no sense with our present understanding of gravity-- unless we assume there's a lot more mass

Explain for a layman? I don't know what it means for movement to not make sense.

burnished

Movement doesn't make sense when we can't predict or explain it. Based on our understanding of gravity as confirmed by observations of our solar system we expect to see galaxies do X but instead they do Y, and then we collectively fail to identify a simple explanation like bad math or a bad assumption.

In one sense this is a vindication of our application of the scientific method and the way we make theories: a bad theory wouldn't be able to be checked, whereas a good theory can make precise enough claims that when a limitation is found (such as when our predictions about reality do not match our observations) that the results of the check are clear.

rini17

Being able to precisely calculate movement of planets in Solar system and also calculate their mass was a huge triumph of physics. The problem is the same math doesn't work with visible stars orbiting in galaxies nor galaxy clusters. Simplest explanation is there's much invisible mass - dark matter. Or the laws are different at these scales.

moi2388

It’s a bunch of nonsense really.

They greatly simplify models, otherwise they’re too complicated to calculate.

So they simplify the data points, assume point particles, assume no interactions due to electromagnetism, no tidal locks, and Newtonian gravity instead of relativity.

And then it turns out galaxies sometimes rotate too quickly.

Yeah, no shit. If your data is known to be wrong and your model uses the wrong theory of gravity and makes known false simplifications it would be quite strange if it somehow did predict without some discrepancies

tekla

We know that in a vacuum everything falls that ~9.8m/s acceleration on earth.

We get a ball made up of something, and for some reason only it accelerates at 10m/s for no discernible reason.

idiotsecant

The more distance along your 4th dimension you allow, the more strange geometric effects you will observe. If you let a 4th dimension be very, very, very small (imagine a 2d universe that actually has a third dimension, it's just subatomic in scale) the geometric effects are negligible.A 3d volume can exist in that 2d + 1 tiny dimension, in the technical sense, but not in any macroscopic sense. Your 3rd dimension curls around to where it started nearly immediately.

codingdave

I'm ignorant when it comes to physics, admittedly, so please forgive me if my question has an obvious answer... But when I read articles like this, in particular when they mention branes, I want to ask: How do we know that dark matter is not just some interaction coming from the "bulk"?

stormbeard

We don't know! But we also can't feasibly test for something like that.

Ygg2

> The force of gravity is weak. And not just a little bit weak. It’s so much weaker than the other three fundamental forces—electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces—that it’s almost impossible to provide analogies.

Nothing in nature prevents gravity from just being super weak. Some forces could just be super weak.

The unspoken premise of gravity being weaker than other forces is that all forces were unified at some point. So iff you assume all forces in nature were once one force, then gravity being weak is an anomaly.

eggn00dles

if you use planck units instead of anthropocentric ones gravity isnt weak. its the mass of the proton that is much less than its charge. but why should those two values be equivalent to begin with?

Ygg2

Strength is relative. It will always be a rounding error in particle interactions.

echelon

To what degree are these Nautilus stories based off of the work of a single researcher or lab that does not have broader consensus amongst the research community?

What's a good way for a layperson to tell if this is a new scientific consensus arrived at after hundreds of researchers come to the same conclusion or a breakthrough result that has shocked the entire research community?

superjan

This is not consensus. There are lots of anomalies in what we observe in the cosmos. Here someone links two of those to a speculation about extra dimensions. It would get interesting if they have predictions that can be checked.

A promising new theory should fit known observations, explain previously unexplained phenomenon, and predict something testable. That will be difficult to judge as a layperson.

flufluflufluffy

> “In 1999, theoretical physicists Lisa Randall and Raman Sundrum proposed a wild restructuring of the cosmos”

> “The brane-bulk model is a speculative idea for sure, but a fun one.”

I feel like it’s communicated pretty clearly that it isn’t some breakthrough finding that everybody agrees on. You could google the mentioned researchers/theories and find out more information if you still weren’t sure.

patcon

Agreed. Yes, a bit roundabout, but it's pretty wild that we live in a spot in the universe where the distance we need to travel to "confirm plausibility" of a "deep truth of the universe we just heard about" is just to type a few glyphs into a magic box and decide if the person speaking the purported truth has a reputation in the relevant human thought-stuffs.

The world we live in is crazy. To know such a thing so easily at an earlier time, would be unfathomable :)

20k

Virtually all reasonable alternatives to GR have been strongly ruled out, including theories with large extra dimensions in them. In general, these theories have a some kind of parameter which measures their deviation from GR, which is being squashed to zero. There's also just generally no reason to think there are extra dimensions at all

This article brings up neutron stars being slightly larger than expected, but the reality is there's no real expected maximum mass for a neutron star - because the equation of state and physics for neutron star interiors is unknown. The spin, and magnetic field of a neutron star can also serve to increase the maximum mass of a neutron star, which are very hard to model as there are no analytic solutions to a spinning body (nor an oblate body)

There are too many approximations in the paper to even come close to saying that the brane model explains this better than standard physics, and there's no reason to think that this event isn't explainable by standard physics

pk-protect-ai

God, so many words to cover only one phrase with a "possible hint" at an extra mass coming from imaginary source ...

deadbabe

If you could orient something along a higher dimension in the correct way could we conceivably create some kind of anti gravity or artificial gravity?

null

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johnea

Where are the flaggers? Come on, you're slacking off.

Neutron Stars? Other Dimensions? This has GOT to be woke, right?

The level of flagging on HN lately is totally out of control.

And they complained that the woke were cancelling people...

MrMcCall

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mnky9800n

The problem is most of what you say is unmeasurable. So it’s not really something physics can comment on and those immeasurable quantities cannot really be commented on by physics. So maybe your thoughts are enjoyable to you or others but they don’t really have anything to do with how dynamics in the universe play out, which is all that physics has to say about things.

MrMcCall

It took many years before Einstein's ToR was confirmed by pictures of light bending around our sun during an eclipse.

Paul Dirac predicted antiparticles purely by mathematical intuition. It wasn't until later that the theory proved true, and he was recognized to be the genius that he was.

First comes the theory, then experiments are devised. Then physics gets updated.

I merely suggest these things, not because I have the math to understand how it would affect GR or QED, or even what experiments would be needed to verify them, but merely to plant the seeds of how things work to stimulate those who can do those things to think about what their ramifications might be.

That no one understands how these things can even be known, much less that they are true, is already known by me, but the truth is never beholden to the naysayers. I'm not a Boltzmann who was (sadly) bullied into suicide by the fools of his era. I don't really care if anyone believes what I say. I say these things because I love you all and maybe a few people will be stimulated to contemplate other avenues that may explain the as yet inexplicable.

And, really, y'all are out of ideas as to what or where dark matter or energy are anyway, so there is nothing for anyone to lose.

Put another way, Einstein knew what would happen to light that passed close to the sun (even though his calculations were off), but the naysayers were irrelevant, right? They, too, thought they already knew it all.

mnky9800n

I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m saying that you aren’t saying anything to agree or disagree with from the standpoint of physics. Your position offers no predictions, offers no implications, and offers no way to be measured in any way. From the standpoint of physics it doesn’t exist. That doesn’t make it wrong or right nor does it make anyone replying you wrong or right about any of it. You simply have not crossed the threshold for physics to have a say. You are free to believe all of this. If you want physics to care you need to demonstrate how your beliefs predict system dynamics. How can your beliefs explain observations and do those explanations make sense in the context of everything else we know? All of the people you cite who were “free thinkers” expressed their ideas in the context of the current understanding of physics whether they were special relativity or information theory. They did this by offering predictions such as how general relativity predicts you can see a star that is currently behind the sun during an eclipse if you draw a line from the earth observer to the star or how quantum mechanics predicted the existence of semiconductors or how chaos theory explains why two systems with similar initial conditions could exponentially grow apart from each other. If you could offer such predictions from your ideas than they would “stimulate” physicists to think about them. But without such predictions your ideas simply are just your thoughts about how things work. They may be interesting to some people, but if you want to think about them as physics, you need to provide a prediction.

anon84873628

>I merely suggest these things, not because I have the math to understand how it would affect GR or QED, or even what experiments would be needed to verify them, but merely to plant the seeds of how things work to stimulate those who can do those things to think about what their ramifications might be.

You think physicists don't smoke weed and dream up random ideas? Or formally study eastern religions?

The fact that they are trained physicist is why they don't conceive of the universe (and dark energy specifically) the way you do, and probably never will.

>And, really, y'all are out of ideas as to what or where dark matter or energy are anyway, so there is nothing for anyone to lose.

This is an example of your condescension. There are so many assumptions implicit in your statements that it's offensive to the audience. Its like the difference between a person raving in the street that everyone is free to ignore. Versus that same person deliberately entering a physics conference shouting the same things, then claiming they're only there to help.

tekla

Holy shit, wow so untrue.

Special Relativity was accepted almost immediately (within 10 years) by the scientific community since it was so powerful and useful and correct when the community tested it.

General relativity took a longer time to be generally accepted since the sensitivity of the tests were mediocre for the time, but strong evidence of its correctness was already coming about within 25 years. The problem being it was hard to figure out which model was correct due to lack of accurate tests

Saying that the community rejected these theories is just ignorance.

deepfriedchokes

Hey Bud, anyone who claims this kind of “deep understanding” without evidence is running a cult. Always trust but verify; if you can’t verify you can’t trust and it’s just faith. The desire to have faith can come from a place of love but that desire is often exploited by those seeking power over others.

Check out this book: Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan.

Keep an open mind. I enjoyed reading your ideas of the universe but without evidence it’s just a fun idea. Science, empirical evidence, is what turns ideas into understanding.

MrMcCall

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9991

I'll have what he's having.

MrMcCall

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gaoshan

"A fool is a person who hears the truth and calls it a lie." Sure, let's keep that sentiment going... a charlatan is a person who invents what they insist is a truth and then labels all who do not believe as fools.

AIorNot

Hmm without evidence this is just another fanciful fiction and we know the human mind can create an endless series of speculative fictions -

idiotsecant

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