I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

It won't get you to the moon, but you can squeeze out a little more distance by arranging them corner to corner.

Almost terrifying that the two length scales are only an order of magnitude apart…

opening the thinkpads will add ~ 38% to the effective area of stacking thinkpads, if edge-to-edge (0.2325m depth closed, assuming doubling for opened = 0.465m opened) [0].

if opened and touching corner-to-corner (~0.574m), will add ~ 71% to effective area.

[0] https://www.lenovo.com/content/dam/lenovo/pcsd/north-america...

brilliant comment. dont forget theres also thinkpads like that W700ds that had secondary displays that extended out from the side haha

Comment on the comments.....it sure looks like moores law is loosing relevance and that going forward the possibility for durable, stable, device implemtations, that can last for generations is inevitable. Manufacturers may be resistant, but with 8~9 billion customers, and the inevitable losses and damage to devices, it will take a generation to get one in everybodys hands

Well not the moon, but about 100 times back and forth to ISS Average distance of ISS 370-460km, let's take 415km, back and forth so 2x 415km= 830km 84 150km/830=~101

As I see it, an aluminum slab MNT Reform Next[1] would be a better Thinkpad replacement than a Framework (from a build and reparability standpoint).

[1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next

I have an M4 MacBook from work and a personal Framework 13. The MacBook certainly feels more solid, but I wouldn't call the Framework flimsy, and it still has a premium feel.

I made the mistake of packing my MacBook (at the time an M1 model), my Framework, and my iPad Pro 12.9 (with keyboard case) in a single laptop bag for a work trip a while back. The Framework got bent around the power button in a way that made the button get jammed; I bought a new input cover for ~$100 and replaced it in five minutes. My iPad's keyboard case now has keys that occasionally get stuck, so I'll probably replace that at some point. My MacBook seemed fine at the time, but it developed an intermittent trackpad button jam that could have been caused by that (or maybe a piece of dust).

My ZBook from 2014 is apparently made of sturdy plastic but the keyboard is built on a metal base and it fits in metal hooks on the chassis. It does not flex at all.

The problem with this machine is that sooner or later I'll run out of reasonably priced keyboards (they wear and the mechanisms under the most used keys break), maybe no more support for the graphic card neither from Nvidia nor from the open source driver, and go forbids if some RAM burns. Perhaps RAM from that age it still available but historically the prices hike when only a few desperate people look for it and have to pay a premium.

So eventually I'll have to buy a new laptop because of maintenance: hardware parts and software updates. I'm betting on another 2 or 3 years. There is nothing I particularly like on the market now but this laptop was a compromise too. Serviceability and 3 buttons on the touchpad vs a useless number pad that shifts the center of the keyboard to the left of the screen.

My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets hot etc. I am looking for a cooler machine with ThinkPad durability. I can't choose Framework because a) they don't ship where I am b) they won't honor warranty if I use forwarders c) none of their offerings have a comparably durable config.

Maybe they should think about a FrameTough line.

Someone on the subreddit was talking about how they plan to make a high-end carbon fiber chassis for the 13. That was a few weeks ago - I don't believe they've posted anything since their initial post.

imo the modular ports are a massive longevity feature. charging cable ports are one of the most common laptop killers, so making that modular is a huge step up

Apparently the flex on the 16 is bad enough that the pogo pin connector for the keyboard deck loses contact every time you pick the laptop up.

They are bendy as hell - I have a couple of colleagues with them.

Also on that I think they should do away with the modular port things anyway. They're a suboptimial use of space and limit the total number of ports you can have. The real problem is that the ports on most laptops are soldered directly to the motherboard which results in extreme expense if you kill one. Just give us some replaceable ones like the current MacBook line. They're on an easy to remove daughterboard and purchaseable online.

You hit on why I got my first used ThinkPad many years ago (a T42): it was so cheap as to be disposable. I was going on a trip that promised to be somewhat...ah...rough on my kit, and I picked up the T42 for dirt so I didn't take my new, very expensive laptop only to have it trashed (I don't remember what it was now...probably some Dell). The Dell(?) is loooong gone. The T42 made it through the trip fine, and over many years has gotten an SSD, a memory upgrade and a new screen (old one worked fine; wanted the pretty SXGA screen) and because it has a real, honest to gawd parallel port, it's still serving duty today controlling some stuff in my lab (PROM programmer, some finicky windows software, etc). It might not be a daily driver, but it gets fired up most every week to do real work.

FYI- you can find 32GB DDR4 SODIMMs that’ll work with the x260 :D

When would you define as “before”? I’ve had a thinkpad on and off and I’d describe the quality as consistent.

People talking about old Lenovos being good quality are often talking about in the pre-IBM days which is far more likely to be nostalgia at this point.

>With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13 were better.

Exactly this. I've given up hope to expect an old-school TP keyboard with its ridged concave keys providing perfect tactile feedback even when not depressing a key, but there's basically no standard laptop layout out there anymore optimized for efficient touch typing, with existing consistently grouped and offset(!) off-center key groups (4-group f-keys, pgup/pgdn/home/end cluster, arrow keys). And some key travel to go with tactile scissor keys to reduce bottoming-out would be nice.

(Oh, and why I find the "tactile feedback" so important, see the wonderful "Pictures Under Glass" rant.

https://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDes...

Not directly related to keyboards, but the premise remains the same. Hands feel things. :) )

I did not expect this criticism ! I, and many others apparently, enjoy the keyboard a lot. My main criticism would be that even though it's acceptable, the chassis does not feel rugged.

As someone that had been thinking on buying both a tablet and some sort of chromebook for light web based workflows on the go, they 100% have my attention

I will say, it has weirded me out that they have been so cagey about the pricing in particular, which AFAICT, is the only thing not public about the laptop before the pre order date

There's some mis-information here:

Yep on battery - I rarely use mine while traveling (and rarely travel) and set max charge to 60% so it should last a good long time, but it can be replaced when I need too. I replaced 2 in my black Macbook and once in my iPhone 3G (but I got 8 years out of the phone). When my work MB Pro had a battery bulge, the whole machine was replaced and presumably recycled since it was not repairable.

Internal, yep, but nvme > SATA any day.

They are usb-c yes, but the ports are adjustable (can mix usb-c, usb-a, display-port, hdmi, network, storage, etc) so it's not as restrictive as you seem to be implying.

On video, I am not sure if you think it's some kind of DisplayLink thing but it's alt-dp over usb, directly connected to the GPU.

My 13" has a headphone jack (and passable speakers) and a built in Mic (and both the camera and mic have switches to disable them).

2.5GB Ethernet is available as an expansion module.

I find the keyboard and touch pad okay! I don't really need a touchscreen.

On ports: I don't use the finger print reader (but it has one). I don't need SD card slot all that often (but is available). I don't have any FW devices (and 400Mbs vs 5-10Gbps). Don't need a modem or an IR Port

I don't use a dock (I do at work for my MB Pro - but it's mostly a permanent desktop configuration so I don't mind that it's connected via usb-c). The one I got IS compatible with my Framework 13 though.

I had a t61 for work and I loved it... in 2009 . I should have bought it from the company when I left but bought a black Macbook instead

  - FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter

  - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card

  Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't:
  - Fingerprint reader

  - SD card slot

> FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a train/bus/airplane.

> X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back

Yeah but the FW13 battery also lasts several times more than the battery life you get out of swapping two or three X60 batteries on the train.

Also, VGA out is useless in this day and age and USB-C is not only robust but also way faster and more capable.

> If being able to replace a part requires me to have a screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms.

You have to understand though that people like us are a tiny minority.

Increasingly I hate creating waste, especially e-waste, and so I'll tinker with things to get them working or upgrade them, but most people don't want the hassle.

I'm a huge Thinkpad fan. I'm an even bigger MacBook fan.

None of my MacBook Pros ever had any issues, and I used my last MacBook for 9 years. I could keep using it with Linux instead of MacOS, but I think almost a decade of use is plenty of value for me.

There were recalls and scandals with the MacBook Pro over the years, but nothing that other vendors also didn't see, and that wouldn't have required the same exact parts being replaced. I'm thinking of the GPU issues with certain MacBooks. The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo.

I had a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon with the HiDPI screen that was absolutely awful, requiring replacement multiple times. Each time, the moron from Unisys that Lenovo sent to do the on-site repair would return me with a laptop that was poorly reassembled, and with new problems due to the tech's ineptitude. The same dude did service for Lenovo servers, and he once dropped a server that needed a fan replaced on the floor. Talk about fragile.

Thinkpads are great, and the oldest ones are still solid to use, but to say that MacBooks are fragile ignores that Thinkpads too are fragile.

> Apple's era of easily (or even hot) swappable parts.

This. It existed. The laptops still commanded enthusiasm, felt great, capable, and solid without being too heavy, and had swappable RAM and disk. Keyboard and battery swap were screwdriver set DIYs. Heck, the old Pismos had hot swappable battery and drive bays.

I'm still frequently using a MacBook Pro 11,3. Only lets you swap the drive but that by itself is a great point of flexibility.

The M series does amazing things which have their own merits, but the particular set of tradeoffs aren't inevitable.

The "sacrifices must be made" idea apparently sacrifices recall of other possibilities first.

> failing 3rd party RAM

Unless you're Samsung, almost all RAM is 3rd party. It's either Sammsung, SK Hynix, or Micron.

It's not just price. The market for this expertise is also not very deep and liquid. If I have to get a laptop repaired, what are my choices? Send it off to the manufacturer/importer if it's still under warranty, and get it back in maybe two months. Drop it off at a shop that does also phone repairs and hope they don't wreck it?

Realistically I don't know anyone with my specific kind of problem who's used their services before, so I don't really know their reputation. It's not like walking into a supermarket, or even getting a car repaired where you have some sense of the likelihood it will take as long as they say, cost as much as they say and actually succeed. There's much greater information asymmetry.

Of course, given how unattractive it is to get something repaired, more people will be inclined to just buy something new, resulting in less demand for repairs, resulting in less supply, less attractive repair market, etc.

Repairability (at home, by relative morons) also means more repair shops, because less repairability means death of a repairs market.

>Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead.

This is generally a problem in taxation than the devices. Consider I want to have an electrician fix my broken wallsocket:

>Billed for 100€/hour

>Out of which expenses for moving using a workcar, calculating by officially recognized tax administration car wear value 0,59€/km for 5km both ways, so ~6€, 94€ remains

>VAT is 25,5%, leaving you with ~70€

>Paying for mandatory employer's portion of pension 17,5%, leaving us with ~57,75€

Now the employee gets 57,75€, out of which following are deducted:

>Income tax for average electrician: 26%, ~15€

>Employee's part of mandatory pension: 7,15%, ~ 4,1€

>Municipal taxes: ~8% depending on municipality ~ 4,6€

So 57,75€ - 23,7€ = ~34€

There are also various single or partial percent taxes that slightly affect the outcome, and companies often want some sort of profit instead of directly giving 100% to the single employee.

Easily swappable components also increase resources consumption. We don't necessary want or need to be able to fix all the parts of our laptops or cars (or shoes!) at home, but we definitely want and need a local professional to be able to do so for a reasonable cost.

Chips have a limited lifespan too. It doesn't matter if you can swap a module in your laptop, at some point all those chips will need to be recycled.

People as in the general population were not doing it, just us weirdos.

I funded my early career years by doing IT for home users of all sorts of expertise and budget and I feel like I got a decent gauge at what the average user did during the replaceable hardware era.

The people in the middle class and below would end up with such a shit device out of the gate (those 400-600usd laptops at the time, lower outside of the us), that by the time they started complaining about slowness, the upgradeable things did not make a difference. 1 to 2gb ram with a shit Celeron? Hardly worth the money. Bottom shelf Core2duos, overheating, cracking hinges, etc.

Not to mention that even then not all laptops were very standard in the way they were built. Taking one apart could be very time consuming and they would pay by the hour for me to do it, so after labor it was above what the device was worth and it would only buy them a few months of time at most. You do that once and you realize next time you’ll get a desktop.

The richer people would just get MacBooks and only call me for software stuff.

Companies had thinkpads and once purchased would never go out the standarized build. Just swap them when out of warranty, or at the time most would actually work at a desk with a desktop and leave work at work.

It's faster, but a big reason apple silicon is ahead is because the memory is co-packaged on an MCM. This is the direction things are going.

Nah, personally? I know it’s possible, I’ve done it, and I just do not care anymore.

not worth it

No specific brand, I had just searched ebay for "2020 macbook air m1 battery" and picked a seller with good ratings. Cost about $40. It's not even advertised as being a genuine apple one.

I did! [1] There was some initial activity, and we got it narrowed down to a range of commits, but did not get any real smoking gun. To be fair, I also put in less effort once I found I could just copy the 11.3 loader and get things working. And also some stuff came up in my own life that prevented me from devoting more time to it, alas.

It eventually got auto-closed for not being tagged to any non-EOL versions. I did recently confirm it was still a problem on newer releases, but that hardware died not long after, so I didn't pursue it.

My best guess is that it was some BIOS-level oddity. It's also possible that it was due in some way to the hardware (slowly) dying; I can't be sure. But it was a very clear "worked on release X, stopped working on release Y (and beyond)" sort of behavior.

[1] https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=257722

Considering I've booted FreeBSD 11 on a Pentium Pro, I very much doubt "old hardware not supported" is really the GPs issue.

I provisioned several hundred x220's for the school I was working at, figuring they were the most bomb-proof thing at the time. The lid section you're talking about was definitively not bomb-proof. Thankfully, it didn't make much difference to the operation of the laptop, but still pretty annoying.

The extra bit of the lid houses the antennas, it's plastic to not interfere with the signals as much as the magnesium would have. I do wish they could have attached it better or made the whole lid plastic over a magnesium frame or something.

The X220 touchpad and fan were pretty mediocre. The rest was outstanding, unless you didn't upgrade the panel. I hate nothing similar can be bought brand new.

Yup, also a problem with my X220/X230 units. My most recent repair attempt involves nails expoxied in internally, fingers crossed it holds. My previous repair (a carbon fibre strip glued on externally) failed after a drop.

It's possible to upgrade the panel - mine has a 1080p IPS.

of course not. When you go through airport security, they give you trays where you put your backpack, laptop, and shoes. Happens every day with no problem.