Don't Bother with Vibe Coding
127 comments
·April 2, 2025bilekas
cjs_ac
This startup has its staff working 12-15 hour days to use AI to write the code for an AI system that gets people to pay up on their debts. Collecting debts involves dealing with people who are in difficult, exceptional situations: I have no faith that they are willing to properly engage with any of the detail. I have absolutely no doubt that this company will leave a long trail of suicides behind it.
joquarky
Bootcampers have brought their gold digging ethos with them into our industry and will soon outnumber those of us who prioritize safety and quality.
"The safety and welfare of society and the common good, duty to our principals, and duty to each other, require that we adhere, and be seen to adhere, to the highest ethical standards of behavior."[0]
jf22
Over 50% of my code is AI generated. You couldn't tell the difference between the AI code and what I wrote by hand two years ago.
do_not_redeem
I've heard of self-deprecation but this is on a whole new level
jf22
I think you meant this as an insult but the tools are that good.
joquarky
If you're reviewing and shaping the AI's output with care, then it is your code.
It's kind of like using autocomplete in Gmail: nobody says, “Well, Google wrote 20% of that message.”
We just quietly thank the autocomplete gods for saving us from typing “per my last email” one more time.
rozap
I've never seen a more cursed job posting than this.
null
zero-g
How do I short this
piokoch
Tell me this is some kind of parody.
"Putting in 12 to 15-hour days, the engineering team has traveled to +10 cities in the past half-year for product launches."
"Solve deep product problems like how to collect more money with a voice AI agent."
hatradiowigwam
> "Solve deep product problems like how to collect more money with a voice AI agent."
Next "killer app"...an app you can send a phone call to the moment you realize it's a spammer/collector/etc. The app uses an LLM and voice synth to have the most boring and frustrating conversation ever with the caller. It should frequently ask them to repeat themselves, pretend to misunderstand common words, and for bonus points...speak in a broken accent. I'd pay $20 for that app right now.
jbiason
Like the experiment O2 did last year? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV_SdCfZ-0s
furstenheim
It ends up with AIs chatting between them over the phone in like 1 year top
bambax
Their mission statement is: "Automating debt collection calls for banks".
Which is kind of funny, because if it's an automated call you don't need to even take it. Who picks up the phone from unknown numbers these days?
dzhiurgis
People who are sick receiving 1000 automated calls per day. Eventually you'll cave in.
morcus
The crazy thing is when that was first posted to HN, the salary was 50% lower.
Shocking that no one wanted to work there.
rsynnott
I mean, honestly, everything about that ad comes across as basically a parody of a terrible tech company. 12-15 hour days! The actual product! I’m having some difficulty believing it’s real.
madeofpalk
This article makes the fundamental flaw that the only type of programming is for Work For Other People.
For me at my day job, I find success with Cursor as “fancy autocomplete”. It’s aiding me when I am writing the code. The most code it’ll ever generate is to start on unit tests.
I’ve also used Cursor on the side for little personal hobby projects where I let to go wild in generating the overwhelming majority of code. I can’t say whether it’s faster or not, but it certainly helps reduce and overhead, initial blockers, ir lowering the barrier for myself to make something.
For those who are skeptical or haven’t tried it yet, ignore this article and just go give this new tool a decent try -carefully on your existing code base, and in no-stakes hobby projects - to form your own real opinion.
ehutch79
That's not vibe coding though. Vibe coding is specifically pretending code doesn't exist, and just directing an LLM to do stuff... https://x.com/karpathy/status/1886192184808149383?lang=en
animuchan
Yep, I also thought that the article is less about personal projects. The list of software development aspects that the author gives includes CI/CD, good documentation, and integration tests — I'd be surprised if a lot of hobby projects out there had these (apart from what's available out of the box for free, e.g. Vercel's automatic deployment from GitHub).
In the boring professional setting though, I can totally relate. The really hard questions I have to answer at work are usually not about code.
For a one-off script or a weekend project, on the other hand, even the current gen AI is a life-changing thing.
moolcool
> I'd even go as far as saying that you should reject anyone applying for your startup if they claim to have vibe coding experience
I thought vibe coding was just a meme. There are people who put vibe coding on _their resumes_??
dygd
Also thought it's a meme until I saw a YC job ad for a vibe coder: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/domu-technology-inc/jo...
rozab
> Domu is an enterprise voice AI startup crushing it in the financial services industry
> Solve deep product problems like how to collect more money with a voice AI agent.
> Ready to grind long hours, including weekends, to hit our ambitious goals.
dwaltrip
Vomit inducing.
dalmo3
According to the top echelons of YC, vibe coders are "1000x engineers". Add in 15-hour days and you can probably expect that team of six to surpass AWS in features by next month.
ljm
Put 1000 vibe coders with 1000 Cursor editors in a room and, given infinite time, they’ll produce an almost complete version of fizzbuzz.
mattgreenrocks
They really are overplaying their hand here on this, aren't they?
wiml
Also "putting in 12–15 hour days". I don't know what this company's value prop is but it's not their software.
disgruntledphd2
The founder appears to be Brazilian, and when I worked for a Brazilian company (very briefly) this was the vibe. it was very weird as this particular company often didn't seem to care about results, only the grind.
amarcheschi
regular 8hrs + additional time to fix the mess made by blindly vibe coding without caring for what's being done
abhijitr
From the job posting it sounds like the company value prop is AI agents as debt collector? They want to “solve deep problems like collecting more money”. What a shitty dystopia we’re creating.
propter_hoc
"including weekends"
kingkongjaffa
> Putting in 12 to 15-hour days, the engineering team has traveled to +10 cities in the past half-year for product launches.
Sounds like hell for an engineer.
wat10000
I imagine they’re intentionally filtering for candidates desperate enough to put up with that, or naive enough to think that sounds cool.
moolcool
Ignoring all of the absolutely insane things about that job description.
Do they have a list of clients I can access, so I can avoid using any of their products? The first time I get a phone call from an AI bot starting with "I see you opened our email about...", I'm throwing my phone out the window.
bilekas
> Do they have a list of clients I can access, so I can avoid using any of their products?
If I'm not mistaken they offer service to debt collection companies, if you know any way to avoid a given debt collection service please do let me know!
joquarky
I only got two sentences in and can't help but read that job listing like it was written by Jean-Ralphio from Parks and Rec.
vanschelven
since this is an AI company it's not entirely impossible that they're putting out these ads to portray a certain image, rather than to actually hire people...
-- edit "impossible" not "possible"
llm_nerd
I mean...what image? The original listing had a terrible pay rate, they proudly boast that you'll be working 12-16 hour days and will start your employment making collection calls, which...I'd rather plunge toilets with my lips.
If that ad is trying to push an image, man they couldn't be failing worse. It looks pathetic.
ginko
HN should allow comments for job postings.
disgruntledphd2
Stuff like this is exactly why they don't.
tmpz22
It’s not something has has a accepted definition so for an org to put it as a requirement just makes the org a laughing stock.
j_french
I recently saw it used in the documentation a university department produces when they want to propose running a new program. I was agog.
barrell
Did you see the job post he linked in the article for a “Vibe Coder”?
https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/domu-technology-inc/jo...
ziddoap
That's a joke posting, isn't it? I have a hard time believing it is a real position.
>Your onboarding will be making collection calls.
>At least 50% of the code you write right now should be done by AI
You're doing collection calls for a company that does "Automated human-like voice calls for the insurance industry".
ChrisMarshallNY
The person mentioned in the company (Founder) is a real person. Probably has an HN profile. Maybe she can chime in?
kubb
I think it's serious, they just went all in on the AI maximalism. They got funding, so it's a viable strat.
Cthulhu_
> At least 50% of the code you write right now should be done by AI; Vibe coding experience is non-negotiable.
> Putting in 12 to 15-hour days
These two don't correlate. AI is sold as saving time, so why not advertise it as a part-time job? If 50% of code is AI generated, then I expect it to be a 20 hour / week contract at 100% pay. Right?
> Your onboarding will be making collection calls.
...but there's AIs that are supposed to do that. Right?
This has got to be a troll advert or shell company. Their website doesn't list any employees or products. Half the people working for them on linkedin are deleted accounts, the rest are students or serial founders [0]
hugg
i think some of the results on the linkedin page are because 'domu' is a polish word (genitive of 'dom' (house, home))
amarcheschi
the website doesn't even have tos or a working privacy policy link on their homepage yikes
burgerrito
Dear God, I hope no other companies follows this and this "trend" stops at this job posting...
A4ET8a8uTh0_v2
I have to admit that I was certain this had to be an April fools joke, but since it does appear to be an actual posting, it might need to be addressed in a more serious manner.
The interesting thing is that they do seem to be offering a service that some companies may find worthwhile, which is presumably a reason they got the funding ( presumably because the job post gives of incompetence vibes ). I am saying incompetence, because there is likely a way phrase it in a way that speaks to the type of person that wants more rewards for their input.
But the input will, likely, also be the calls the employee makes to make collection calls. And those calls are not fun ( as I have heard ). And apart from no being fun, they are legal considerations, that will likely be tested in court the moment the product will do something even a collections agent wouldn't.
Personally, I am kinda horrified, because the future is clearly that of me not picking up any phone calls at all.
edit: And none of it touches the vibe ( heh ) I get of companies feeling empowered again to simply tell workers that they must work 80h+. I had company rep tell me that once. I politely declined to move to next interview round. I wonder if this is the answer here.
ljm
They need a 'vibe coder' for that because no software engineer worth their salt is going to onboard as muscle for debt collection agencies.
Not the first job post I've seen lately that has reverted to an aggressive tech-bro tone, either. I thought we moved on from the brogrammer shit of the last decade but it's back in full swing.
latexr
There are “AI artists” claiming “prompt engineering” is a skill that should give them copyright over the works the image generator produces, so this is not surprising in the slightest.
xienze
In the US, copyright is assigned to whoever takes a photograph. Pushing a button on your phone isn’t much work at all and yet the courts think that’s enough effort to allow someone to claim copyright over the work. So I don’t think the claim that the prompting, inpainting etc. required to generate an AI imagine isn’t “enough” work for someone to claim copyright doesn’t really hold water.
joquarky
It's discrepancies like this that illustrate that copyright is unnatural and needs major reform.
zerr
Prompt Engineer is a real job title nowadays.
joquarky
- Corporate Communications Liaison
- Social Media Engagement Strategist
- Brand Evangelist
- Vision Alignment Strategist
- Chief Happiness Officer
...are also real job titles nowadays.
mattgreenrocks
I've seen people using it as an identity marker. People are weird.
jaccola
The argument for "vibe coding" (or generally heavy-use of AI coding) is always along the lines of 1. Vibe coding is much more efficient than regular coding 2. If you don't learn vibe coding you will fall behind
I see lots of arguing over point 1. but I think we can reason about 2. such that it makes the veracity of 1. irrelevant.
There is literally no skill you have to learn NOW (meaning today, this week, this year) that will ruin your career if you don't learn it. There are still very productive and well compensated people writing using editors and other tooling created in the 20th century.
Equally, your boss isn't going to come in to work tomorrow and say "you aren't already a vibe coder?! We expect you to be even though this is the first time I am mentioning it. You're FIRED!"
So if you want to learn "vibe coding", go ahead, but don't feel some great existential anxiety over it. People saying you will "fall behind" are just creating clickbait nonsense.
codeptualize
I kinda agree but the article does not do a great job at defending the position. Who cares about docs?
Vibe coding, or just letting AI take the wheel will work in some situations. It allows non coders to do things they couldn't before and that's great. Just like spreadsheets, no code tools, and integrations tools like Zapier, this will fill a bunch of gaps and push the threshold where you need to get software devs involved.
But as with all these solutions there is that threshold were the complexity, error margin gets, and scale go beyond workable and then you need to unfuck that situation and enforcing correctness. And I think this will result in plenty "oops my data is gone" types of problems.
If you know upfront that your project will get complex and/or needs to scale you might be best off skipping the vibe coding and just getting it right, but for prototypes, small internal tools, process "glue", why not.
It's not a replacement of software engineering as a whole (yet), it's just another tool in the toolbox and imo that's great. Can I use it, no.. I have tried and it just doesn't work at all for bigger more complex projects.
ChrisMarshallNY
> Who cares about docs?
I do (just sayin')...
But there are actually uses for sloppy coding (whether "vibe," or some other [low|no]-code variant).
In particular, prototyping. This has always been a great application for that kind of thing. I'm old enough to remember when Flash and Director were used to prototype UI (Heh. I remember Microsoft demoing their "Longhorn" UI from Director, and trying to hide it).
Also, if your actual product is the company, then sloppy code is fine (I guess). You are basically just showing a prototype, anyway.
reedf1
Even writing articles on this stuff feels like insecurity. Just let the AI fad come and go; the real engineers will take what works and everyone else will fail. The tide goes in - the tide goes out.
Ygg2
To be fair, market can remain insane for longer than you can remain solvent.
jf22
There is no AI fad with software dev. The tools are real.
We are weavers looking at a loom for the first time.
llm_nerd
I laugh at the vibe coding nonsense now -- yeah, a million people making tiny variations of the same crappy web games is not revelatory -- but it truly does feel like there are extremes that are just as harmful.
On the one side are the super enthusiasts who grossly oversell to try to seem innovative and "with it", hoping they can claim some land in the great new AI development world.
On the other side are the head-in-sand types who keep railing about how useless AI is, it's a stochastic parrot, only super juniors find it useful and it holds no value for the Super Novel Work that they engage in, etc. You see this sort of commentary on here all the time.
Right now it's somewhere in the middle. I find the tools extremely helpful in my day to day, and they've completely changed how I work, and the tools are growing more valuable with each passing week.
prisenco
I've not run into anyone who says AI is useless. I'm highly critical of AI as an "everything machine", won't let it code for me and believe AGI is a pipe dream... and I still have incorporated it into my workflow as a rubber duck, idea soundboard and documentation search engine.
On the other hand I've run into way too many people (dozens in person, hundreds online) who are overselling AI, most with a direct financial interest as their motivation.
It's not true that the sides are at all balanced unless you create an extreme "anti-AI" side that doesn't exist.
xboxnolifes
> I've not run into anyone who says AI is useless.
There's a front page post on HN at least once a week about how AI is useless. And in the threads that aren't about AI being useless, at least one person who will comment that they are.
llm_nerd
Okay, I will concede it isn't balanced.
There are magnitudes more delusional or in-denial people underselling AI in hopes that they can create a reality and that the status quo remains unchanged (and they're probably sure that everyone impressed by AI assists all are really shills, bots, etc. It's a pretty classic cope mechanism). Magnitudes. Every discussion about AI on this very site, which presumably includes a higher than normal proportion of early adopters, yields the highly up-ranked "Sure it's useful for crappy developers, but not for me The Excellent Developer and my Extremely Novel Needs". Many, many devs on here last experienced AI development assists in the era of the first release of CoPilot, and carry all of those initial assessments forward unchanged.
These people absolutely dwarf the tiny number of social media agitators that ply the "AI has replaced devs! I am the 100X vibe coding CEO" type nonsense.
dartos
I think it’s like any other tool. Some people get better mileage out of it than others.
There are even very skilled and accomplished engineers that don’t even use language servers.
Not programming, but even some legendary Disney animators still draw out their key frames by hand… on paper… in pen.
Build with what you build best with.
Personally, they help with little refactors and occasionally a quick, difficult to google, question, usually about syntax.
Cthulhu_
"Vibe coding" is fine for prototypes, weekend projects, hackathons etc, it's another variant of other quick coding / website making / visual programming IMO. But don't expect it to be production grade, and within the next year or so we'll probably see the fallout of people actually doing so.
jf22
I can easily "vibe code" production ready code with Windsurf. The code is SOLID, unit tested, documented, commented and resembles the code I'd write by hand. It would be impossible for you to distinguish my vibe code from the code I wrote by hand a year ago.
cadamsdotcom
Every task is different. There are some “dimensions of complexity” that affect where to operate on the “vibecode/handcraft” spectrum..
First is the degree to which your target framework, language, and domain are in-distribution for the model. You’ll get far rather in python than in Verilog, for example. You’ll get further vibecoding next.js than whatever people use for web apps in Elixir.
Second is the amount of context gathering. A greenfield project has no context - every project starts from the same zero point: an empty repo or generated scaffold. Large codebases must be loaded into working memory even for humans. This is why professional software engineering depends so heavily on getting into “flow”: https://i.imgur.com/3uyRWGJ.jpg
It’s just horses for courses.
My prediction is LLMs will get there; they’ll scale to larger and larger codebases as context windows get larger, and working out-of-distribution will happen thanks to scaling inference-time compute and agentic capability to research, read code, build understanding, and store said understanding in a scratchpad dedicated to you.
AshleysBrain
I'm sure there's a time and a place for "vibe coding", but a related point is with larger software projects, most work is maintenance (shameless plug: see my blog post on the subject[1]). It should be obvious that if there's a problem in a serious project, "just work around it or ask for random changes until it goes away" is probably not going to get you very far. I suspect perhaps "vibe coding" was just pointed out with the attitude of "hey this is kinda cool", but hype is blowing it out of proportion.
[1] https://www.construct.net/en/blogs/ashleys-blog-2/reality-lo...
perrygeo
Great point, this maps to my experience. Almost every "fix this existing code" problem posed to LLMs is a failure. The approach of simply spitting out the next probable token doesn't work if any complexity or design aesthetics is involved. We wouldn't trust a human that approached problems by stream of consciousness either.
But vibe coding does work reasonably well for solo greenfield/demo projects. When there is no external complexity, no inferred requirements, no consequences to getting it wrong, nothing to integrate with, nobody to collaborate with ... just you and a blank editor - vibe coding works.
While it can be nice living in a little self-contained fantasy world, on existing projects you'll find absolutely none of the same conditions. And a whole slew of other engineering challenges that aren't solved by throwing generated code at it. As the value of code trends to zero, the value of those other engineering skills increases.
cjs_ac
A digital computer is good at executing algorithms, with absolute, well-defined logic. A human brain is good at executing heuristics, with poorly-defined logic.
AI - of any kind - is about getting the computer to execute these poorly-defined heuristics, and because they're bad at it, they use a lot of energy to do so.
'Vibe coding' makes the computer execute the heuristic of generating code from requirements, and then makes the programmer execute the algorithm of ensuring that the code is correct: both human and machine are doing the thing they're bad at. It only makes sense if the only problem you have with 'move fast and break things' is that you haven't been able to move fast enough.
ChrisMarshallNY
> When I say professional, I'm explicitly not talking about coding.
I'd second that. There's a huge difference between "coding," and "shipping" (not to mention "maintaining," and "supporting").
icu
You can get Gemini 2.5 Pro to help you with infra and deploymnet, code quality and ownership, testing, CI/CD and automation, as well as Documentation... as long as you know to ask for it.
You also don't necessarily need all of that to hack together an MVP. I think a lot of people are not acknowledging that and they are negatively looking down on people embracing a new way of 'writing' code. Users don't care how you make a thing, they just want the thing to work.
Before ChatGPT made a breakthrough in LLMs, code was leverage. Now, LLMs are leverage. I think people suddenly finding that their leverage has been significantly eroded is the source of the negativity towards a "vibe coder".
So while anyone can write a book (the technology has existed since about 500 CE), few do, and there are fewer really good books. No matter the medium it's how you leverage the tool(s) you got.
I think this is a Prometheus moment, LLMs are giving coding to humanity, and it's getting adopted right now by people brave enough to try and embrace it even though 'software development' might be way outside of their comfort zone. I think it's worth cheering those people on even if they fail their way forward.
I just went to check that job posting for "Vibe Coder" [0]
> At least 50% of the code you write right now should be done by AI; Vibe coding experience is non-negotiable.
That is absolutely ridiculous.. As the kids say these days, I think that company is cooked.
0 - https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/domu-technology-inc/jo...