The Internet Slum: is abandoning the Internet the next big thing? (2004)
301 comments
·March 19, 20250x20cowboy
cogman10
> real ones not insane made up ones
There were plenty of insane views :). Let us never forget the timecube [1]
addicted
Haha. I attended one of the lectures mentioned in the Wikipedia and I didn’t realize until the very end that it wasn’t a stand up comedy show.
(Admittedly I was also pretty drunk).
int_19h
The Time Cube meme is still very much alive and well.
getlawgdon
It's like a Bizarro World Dr. Bronner's label.
ge96
Wonder if anybody collected on those bounties
Salgat
He claimed no one else understood his theory (stating that only he alone was smart enough), so it wasn't really possible to disprove it.
bitwize
There was never any doubt that not enough people would take TimeCube guy seriously enough to tip major U.S. elections. That is EMPHATICALLY NOT THE CASE for the racists, fascists, pedophiles, and other scum that formed the core of the 4chan edgelord set.
longbrass
TimeCube guy’s shtick was continuously improved upon and is now a TT meme about manipulating time by a “Global Entrepreneur & Bestselling Author Ranked #1 Speaker in the World.”
So really we are all fools for not taking it seriously enough to self-help promote this into a side hustle.
foxglacier
That idea is kind of the problem with social media now. People found a way to justify its importance to pretend it's worth investing their emotions in. But just imagine how, say, satanic rituals looked to religious people back when that was a thing to worry about, or really anything where lots of other people disagree with your cultural beliefs. You can always imagine how it might be a disaster if you don't start a culture war to kill those "bad" beliefs. It happened again with covid where people turned on each other for their beliefs because other people disagreeing with you might have some bad consequence. Never mind that almost nobody critically evaluates their own beliefs and just assumes they're on the moral high ground because that's where they happened to land in life. People even found a way to justify fighting flat-earthers because anybody who believes such nonsense must be the same type of people who believe other non-mainstream things and those other things could be dangerous to society. At the end of the day though, it's just basic human bigotry which always has some sort of justification.
You even mentioned pedophiles as scum without recognizing that pedophilia is a condition that people have beyond their control and is separate from child abuse which is an activity people do and is within their control. Back in the day, that was also how people justified homophobia. There was a famous case in my country of a kindergarten teacher who was wrongly convicted and went to prison for something like 20 years because of essentially the popular belief that gay + satanic = child molester. My father was that type of person. He thought gays were generally bad people - they obviously weren't following Christian teachings so they must have no morals and would be just the sort of people who might want to infect others with AIDS. Today, if you voted for Trump you must be just the sort of person who wants to lynch black people because you're obviously generally bad and have no moral compass.
MarcelOlsz
There is a notable vibe shift from when I showed a date my plex setup 5 years ago to now. Awhile back it was ick-inducing, now it's cool again to own your data / not pay for crap.
__MatrixMan__
Ideally it will look from the outside like people are abandoning the internet when really what they're abandoning is the web (that's the sick part anyhow) and moving the rest of their digital lives into a vpn-mediated sub-internet made of the participation of people that each user knows via face-to-face interactions.
donatj
When normies started asking me how to set up their own Plex, I knew something had shifted.
kouru225
Anecdotal, but I’ve met like 3 or 4 new plex people in the last year. They’re all just starting out.
hattmall
Wow, that's funny I've heard a few of my friends lately talk about Plex servers and stuff. I'm just like, uhm Plex was like 10 yrs ago!
But would be interesting to see how Plexs numbers have grown lately.
Carrok
You should encourage them to move to Jellyfin. It's better, and actually free.
znpy
> Now the internet has become the new TV. A lot of younger people I see are shunning it.
Not really. I see the stark difference when i visit my parents (in their 60ies).
TV is always on and pretty much always repeating the same things. Little variability, really poor content. It's basically serving the same old thing to the same old people.
The internet instead has much more variability. There's so much plurality of opinions they often clash against each other.
> A lot of younger people I see are shunning it.
What I see is younger people starting to shun social media, which is something that makes my heart smile as well. It seems we're finally shaking off this performative collective craze.
Social media was definitely a mistake that made everything worse. I hope it dies soon.
rightbyte
> Social media was definitely a mistake that made everything worse. I hope it dies soon.
Ye. Hopefully from cultural change and not government bans though.
Young people seem to prefer small private group chats nowadays?
YesBox
There were definitely insane views.
When I was a young teenager in the early-mid 00s, I surfed to an article explaining how the moon landing was faked, with photographic evidence and plausible logic (like the "last of dust on the lander"), blah etc.
There was a brief moment when I thought what I was reading was real, because it was the first time I came across something fabricated communicated as fact.
asdf6969
You should respect those people for actually looking into it. I do believe the moon landing is real but it’s based almost on blind faith. Same thing for almost everything I believe about the world. Stay open minded and don’t criticize people who put effort into things you’ve never bothered to research. You’ll be surprised how often you don’t know much about anything.
kristiandupont
That's true, but conspiracy theorists are not typically out on some philanthropic mission. It's a hobby -- they are doing it because conspiracy theories are fun. That's why they aren't actually interested in things where there is real, tangible evidence. They want to find hidden clues and feel like they are in the know.
Of course, there is a very fine line between that and actually realizing something that the world doesn't see, but that's part of what makes it fun.
lurk2
It was definitely there, but the scale of it was different back then and it was decidedly less mean-spirited by the early 2010s. I can remember when I first started using YouTube, I had someone from my city threaten to kill my entire family. A few years later when the 2012 Mayan Calendar Apocalypse was trending, another guy tried to justify his beliefs that it was real by claiming to have “top contacts” in a federal intelligence agency.
You would run into people like that maybe once every few months. These days you are basically guaranteed to run across multiple people like that every time you log on.
YouTube figured it out with comments around 2013 or 2014, but it got a lot worse about recommending videos from low-viewership channels in the last few years, which exposes you to a lot of wackos.
Gollapalli
Being recommended low viewership channels is a positive.
Having everything be polished, scripted and ad friendly is tremendously boring. My complaint over the last few years with YouTube was that I missed the wackos. They were the thing that made the web interesting to begin with.
AlecSchueler
> it was the first time I came across something fabricated communicated as fact.
That you knew of.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF
Remember the tongue map?
YesBox
Hindsight is 20/20.
bsenftner
This 1000x.
aucisson_masque
Abandoning is not the answer.
I see the effect with my father, he never got much into it in the first place and now he is completely lost when he need to order stuff. So many scammy website featuring first in Google result thanks to seo optimisation or just advertisement.
Then he is completely oblivious to the fact that people can make deepfake video and believed one to be true when it was shown to him on someone else phone.
As much garbage there can be on the internet, you have to force yourself to keep up with it and overall technology otherwise you're just left behind at the mercy of those who adapted.
jimmydddd
Re: Left behind My elderly parents can't even go out to eat dinner in the town they've lived in for 60 years because they don't have the phone app to pay the parking meters in town. So they have to drive out of town to a restaurant with a parking lot.
ddejohn
And then throw QR code menus into the mix. I'm 35 and I have to zoom so far in to be able to read the menu, which then also involves having to scroll horizontally to fully read most menu items, which makes it easy to lose your place, etc.
Being elderly, the frustration must be unbearable.
SirFatty
Not to mention that at this point, QR codes are vector for phishing. People aren't nearly careful enough scanning those things.
https://www.designnews.com/automotive-engineering/scammers-t...
hattmall
I'm happy that died around me. QR code menus suck.
bee_rider
That’s a shame. We’ve mostly been switched to some app-powered thing in my town as well, but they included some kiosk things as well.
IMO, the apps are quite nice actually and I enjoy not having to ever run out to a meter anyway, but requiring a phone should not be considered meeting accessibility requirements.
neuralRiot
You need to download-install an app , enter your info, your vehicle info, your credit card, the location where you’re parking, the time (which is non-refundable/ transferible if you pay too much) to park. Sometimes all this BS takes longer than the time you wish to park, I rather risk getting a ticket or just go somewhere else. All this because cities just lease the operation to 3rd parties.
null
cogman10
Honestly, I wonder if this is something that could be legally challenged under the ADA. Exclusions due to your age aren't legal and not owning a smart phone is very much an age thing.
bmitc
Do the signs not have phone numbers on them for both calling and texting?
user9999999999
if that's true, that's extremely rage inducing. also that sounds like an accessibility violation. which town is this?
dasil003
fuck those apps though, seriously
bongodongobob
Society changes. Smartphones are 20 years old at this point and no longer require you to drop $1k+ up front for one. Should smart phones be required for everything? No. But progress is gonna progress. Who even carries coins with them these days?
bigstrat2003
Requiring a smartphone isn't progress. Offering the option to use a smartphone is progress.
meristohm
I carry coins and preferentially use cash. I'm a male in my 40s and took seriously The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. I've narrowed what I use my now-6yo phone for. I know most of my neighbors, and I value mutual aid, participatory democracy, and "public luxury, private sufficiency". Surveillance capitalism sucks- it's unhealthy, and it extracts wealth to people whose intrinsic value is each no better than anyone else's.
My county forcing Microsoft 2FA as the only option for the government entity I work for, in which I'm the youngest by far and we don't accept having to buy a phone just to use an account, reeks of capitalism.
distances
For what it's worth, I always carry cash, including coins. I pay the smallest purchases (like a sandwich) with coins.
donatj
Some may even be oblivious to the fact that the article is from 2004 ;)
Deepfakes weren't even a fever dream yet.
unyttigfjelltol
Spam exploded in 2003[1] to the modern experience of it. Before that, spam was somewhat infrequent, even without countermeasures.
I recall in the 2001 time period being so annoyed by each individual spam note that I would respond to the appropriate "abuse@" email. By 2004, it was a torrent and totally impractical, and I don't think it was because of my own notes to administrators.
[1] https://www.emailtray.com/blog/email-spam-trends-2001-2012/
blitzar
When Gmail launched on April 1, 2004, there were two big selling points for me - storage and spam.
bbaron63
I remember the first spam I ever received. It was in 1998 on my first day working at AOL. It promised an advanced degree from a prestigious, unaccredited institution. The spammers were somewhat honest back then.
slmkbh
My brain swapped the second zero to a two... But I did think the 1990 reference a little odd..
bsenftner
Actually, as the patent author of what are now called deep fakes, 2004 was when I got formal in my research to create the tech, with full knowledge of what it has become, and a mission to prevent the Orwellian uses active today.
RajT88
Back then, we called it "Photoshop"
specproc
Counterpoint, my father is very IT literate, at least he was. Managed IT for a large government organisation in Europe, taught me code. Has done his best to keep up over the years.
He's completely useless these days, particularly around social media, but increasingly around everything else. I worry about him.
It's difficult to imagine what it would look like, but I'm increasingly of the opinion the best way forward is a hard break with tech. Minimal engagement outside of what's needed for the daily basics.
It's transparently wrecking our brains and societies. We can't build a better Internet, we need to escape it.
zoobab
"Abandoning is not the answer."
Why not? Simpler life like back in the 80s.
kuhzaam
Even the 90s and early 2000s! The internet used to be way more endearing back then, with way more individually operated websites, blogs, etc.
cardanome
What a twist that my regret is not that I have spent so much time of my youth on the internet but that I have not spent more time on the internet when it was still good.
tmtvl
Autoplay midis, blink tags, FFFF00 yellow text on an FFFFFF white background, terribly low quality jpegs.
...man, I miss it.
blueflow
Or what? The Internet is not required to have a peaceful life.
chungus
For those not familiar, this post is by John Walker[0] one of the co-founders of Autodesk who made AutoCAD. He passed away last year[1]
safety_sandals
Wow, definitely familiar with his work, though haven't used AutoCAD for quite some time. Pretty sure my fingers still remember some of the text commands.
kragen
redraw
redraw
redraw
NotYourLawyer
I hadn’t heard that he died, sad.
kelseydh
> But I fear the cure may be worse than the disease, so much so that I penned a 25,000 word screed sketching the transformation of the Internet from an open network of peers to a locked-down medium for delivering commercial content to passive consumers.
This part he got right, though he was clueless to the power of social media. He also correctly predicted a rapid decline in the intelligence of content on the internet.
However he was quite off the mark in predicting that hacking and spam would stop internet use.
fzeroracer
Technically he's not wrong about spam, it's just that the classical view of spam is no longer applicable. When you think of the rise of AI-generated content and SEO-focused design, it is almost impossible to use the internet without being inundated by a deluge of low quality spam. Everywhere we go we're served ads for scam products, have to figure out if someone is an actual person or a bot and so forth.
And the balkanization of the internet is, essentially, what we're seeing.
lurk2
I came across an interesting example of this on Reddit a few days ago. While searching for something on Google, I found a result that was posted on /r/Gifted. I saw that a moderator had suggested that the OP take a psychometric test. This wouldn’t be that weird given the subject of the subreddit, but it had nothing to do with the thread’s topic. I assumed this was the mod trying to cash in on his position on the board and clicked through to his profile to see that he was still making comments like this. When I checked back in the thread I realized it was 5 months old, but the moderator’s comment was only 20 minutes old.
It turns out it was an AI generating responses to every single thread linking to this test.
Here’s one example:
> In my experience, I found skipping grades to be challenging initially due to the abrupt environmental and academic changes. It took me a few weeks to adjust to the pace and social dynamics, but it eventually became rewarding. It's important to approach it with openness and patience. By the way, if anyone is curious about their potential for advanced learning, the Gifted Test at [redacted] can provide insight - it's been validated by licensed psychometricians.
Every comment was like this. You can see the mod’s profile here: https://www.reddit.com/user/themightymom/
gwern
Yeah, looks like the subreddit has been taken over completely. You can see that the original founder of the subreddit had resigned shortly before... and his farewell-post has been deleted by the new mods. The other mods all seem to be inactive, and going through one of their histories, I found them talking about being harassed and bullied a relatively few comments before ceasing /r/gifted comments
I brought this up in modmail with them, to see if any of the uncorrupted mods would respond, under their names. The responses denied my claims and mocked me, before banning me, but notably, all of the responses were under the group-mod username: so either none of the old mods were willing to respond under their usernames, or it wasn't the new mods responding. (Hint: it was almost certainly the latter.)
I reported it to the Reddit admins, but have heard nothing back. I don't expect too much because if the worst the new mods are doing is spamming affiliate links, that's relatively tame and far down the priority list.
bsenftner
Do not use ad networks, none of them, they are the source of all this Internet scummery. The spam, the low quality ads for fraud products, and the ads themselves are virus delivery networks. If you really need advertising to support your product, do you really have a product? Or are ya just gossip, er "social media". Social media is just gossip, monetized, what was before recognized as the lowest form of communication now monetized and washed from that dirty name "gossip", now it's "media", "social media"... what fools mass culture is composed.
kevin_thibedeau
You also have to block the trackers that feed your behavioral data to the brokers that, in turn, fuels the invasive profiling the advertisers use to bid against.
markhahn
that strikes me as odd. I don't see scam ads, ever (you mean like embedded in web pages?) I also don't see much spam anymore, mainly because gmail does a decent job of it. But I still run a few narrow email servers - spam is out there but a lot of it is avoidable though good configuration.
pajko
There was not even an AI back then, what would he say now?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chriswestfall/2024/12/18/the-da...
https://phys.org/news/2025-01-ai-linked-eroding-critical-ski...
dash2
> When I'm feeling down I call it “Internet Gated Communities”, when in an optimistic mood, “The Faculty Club”. This may lead to what many observers refer to as “the Balkanisation of the Internet”—a fragmentation of the “goes everywhere, reaches everybody” vision of the global nervous system into disconnected communities. This may not be such a bad thing.
This happened. In the Philippines, for example, almost all online interaction takes place on Facebook. FB isn't a gated community, but it allows people to set up their own gated communities by the services it layers on top of raw http and html. Another word is "walled gardens", and again, walled gardens are popular because unwalled gardens become slums.
The point is, libertarians, open standards advocates and "old web" nostalgists need to recognize why these services are popular, if they are going to have a chance of protecting the openness they care about.
Grimblewald
Precisely this, old internet was fun and good because it was a defacto walled garden. A very specific group of people had access to the internet. Want to bring that magic back? recreate that crowd / demographic. It is really that simple. The internet, once truly connecting everyone, was always just going to mirror the physical human world, because why would it not?
lurk2
Facebook is a walled garden; it requires you to sign up before viewing most content. Quora, Instagram, and Pinterest are the same way.
> Another word is "walled gardens", and again, walled gardens are popular because unwalled gardens become slums.
Gardens are not walled off for the benefit of the users; they are instead walled off to benefit the network’s owners. There are three chief factors motivating owners to walk in their networks: Preventing rivals from scraping content or user data, encouraging users to sign up so that their activity can be monetized, and keeping content platform exclusive (most platforms will penalize content that has a competing platform’s watermarks on it).
dash2
> Gardens are not walled off for the benefit of the users; they are instead walled off to benefit the network’s owners.
This is true, but the implication that therefore there are no benefits for the users is false. If Facebook was worse than the web for users, they'd flock to the web. (At this point, usually some implicit argument is made that users are foolish and misguided. I'd urge you not to go down that route.)
lurk2
> If Facebook was worse than the web for users, they'd flock to the web.
People go to these platforms for a reason, my point is that the reason isn't because they are walled off. It seems like you are arguing that the chief (if inadvertent) benefit to users of a walled garden is that users don't have to deal with undesirable behavior because access to the platform is restricted by a login wall. This isn't how I would understand a service being "walled off" - Hacker News is not a walled garden even though I need an account to access some of its features. The important distinction is that most (all?) of the content on Hacker News can be accessed without an account. Facebook, Pinterest, and Quora are examples of services going the other way - they lock down content, not for the benefit of the users, but for the benefit of themselves. They save on not having to serve the content to unregistered users, keep the content on their platform, and encourage unregistered users to sign up.
The chief benefit of the open web was always permissive read access, not permissive write access.
jhbadger
But a lot of times the "benefit" is simply that people they know are there. Which is the problem with all these open platforms like Mastodon. People can get the argument that it is better in theory to use an open platform. But nobody wants to use a social platform alone.
harvey9
Is that a market where FB traffic is free on otherwise metered connections?
6510
A group of humans (with all kinds represented) blurs out all refined qualities almost by definition.
Eventually some of them (of more similar thought) will leave for greener pastures. Perhaps naively so as it involves a lot of work or perhaps working on something together brings people together. If these few heretics succeed others will follow until the new place truly becomes as wonderful as imagined. More and more will follow, even people who don't want to be there will show up until eventually everything blurs out again and the process continues.
Besides the new place where interesting people gather there is the old place left behind where the interesting is undesired or made illegal. Meanwhile they also want to bring back the old days.
There are countless examples of this process from IRC and the USA to TV and Facebook. The Moon and Mars colony will also start out stupid then turn into something wonderful... for a while :)
This will be the only thing I write on the internet today eventho I shouldn't bother. The point use to be to get some useful intelligent response to refine or correct my perspective.
Solving world hunger costs only 35 billion per year. It's a great bench mark. If the internet is the sum of human knowledge we must be short of something else. Apparently we can type text into inputareas ad infinitum without accomplishing even this simple, cheap and easy goal. What a bunch of losers we are :)
NickC25
I haven't abandoned it at all, but I do try to regulate my internet time.
I use it to read articles, trade equities, play chess, communicate with colleagues, and do market research for my company. Of course, I engage with a few communities, particularly HN and a few private Slack / Discord groups that align with my company.
I also try to get out a lot, touch grass, read physical books, and exercise. I try to avoid bringing my phone with me to places where I won't need it, such as to the gym or to the running track.
The crux is that we've completely surrendered ourselves to social media.
fibonachos
This is basically where I’m at. It’s mostly become a utility.
safety_sandals
I already did. I don't use the Internet anymore.
avgDev
Hello stranger, nice to see you on the interwebz.
meltyness
He doesn't use the internet any less either, though.
AnimalMuppet
I'm curious about how you posted here, then...
scottLobster
My dad used to be a Professor at a major State university, and he talked about how one of his older colleagues, who was a professor of Electrical Engineering, had his secretary (yes, he had a secretary) print out his emails for him every morning and put them in his physical inbox. He'd read them, type up his responses, print them out, and have her transcribe and send the responses later in the day.
Just sad really.
wincy
I can only hope to one day be rich and successful enough that this could be my life.
MITSardine
This must still be somewhat common. I recall e-mails from administration at my previous French lab had in their signature something to the effect of "Think of the environment, do not print this e-mail".
I actually had an example of something similar before my eyes. My advisor's advisor's advisor (...), emeritus, occupied the office next to mine and printed his Fortran code to work on at home. He debugged on paper, then typed it down the next day in the office. His whole career had been at the crossroads of math and computer science, his main contribution algorithms and software, and he did not have a computer at home (says he). This software debugged by hand (and typed with the index fingers) is still used in commercial software!
piotrpdev
I'm confused, did he type them up on a computer that was not connected to the internet/school network but was physically connected to a printer close by? Why didn't he and the secretary copy emails from/to some form of portable storage?
mr_mitm
Your dad's colleague's professor was just like Donald Knuth!
Beijinger
Bots now make most internet traffic. I wonder how many Reddit stories are written by bots. Answered by bots. Interesting to read, don't get me wrong.
This is why worldcoin may have a bright future: https://world.org/world-id
I think we are moving to gated communities again. The internet will split into several parts. Microsoft always wanted the internet to be a Microsoft thing. So maybe we move into this direction.
null
api
The Internet is BGP, IP, and the like.
Systems that run on the Internet come and go: the open web, the siloed web, social media, private overlay networks, etc. All of those still exist but there's definitely been a progression of the ages in which these things have been dominant and then faded into the background. I'm sure this will keep happening.
I don't think the Internet is going anywhere.
nullpoint420
Let’s not pretend it’s easy to become a BGP peer as an individual.
api
Very much not what I meant. I meant the system that carries packets is the Internet, not the services and protocols that run on top. Stuff above L3 comes and goes.
Back in the day, the internet was an escape from the TV.
It allowed access to information, alternative views (real ones not insane made up ones), no ads, and an escape from having to hear a dominant narrative.
Now the internet has become the new TV. A lot of younger people I see are shunning it.
That makes my old hacker heart smile.