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Global population datasets systematically underrepresent rural population

wongarsu

Because of the nature of the data (resettlements for dam construction) two thirds of the data is from China. But interestingly according to Figure 7 [1] the discrepancy exists even in countries with normally very meticulous record keeping, like Sweden and Germany. I find this surprising.

The root cause analysis also falls short for those cases: Germany's bureaucracy might be underfunded but fundamentally requires every resident to register at their place of residence. There is also no large-scale conflict or violence in Germany, no regions are really remote or hard to reach, all rural areas are electrified (important for satellite-based night-time light counting by GRUMP and WorldPop). The only satisfying root causes left are about satellite counting methods being too coarse or badly tuned to accurately count rural area, or rural living patterns possibly not fitting the assumptions of these models. But it's weird that these errors are so similar between so many different methods, not all of which even use satellite data

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-025-56906-7/figures/7

thadk

The gridded population tools I've used, including Worldpop, seemed to start with the national census data. Only with that do they use the various other measures as a way to subdivide the census data administrative units.

I'm not sure if any of the mentioned gridded population tools are substantially census independent. Haven't read the paper yet, but maybe that could be one reason why methods are so similar.

MarkusQ

They assume that people were only relocated from the areas later covered by water. It seems quite plausible that the actual area of relocation was somewhat larger than that subsequently covered by water, which could explain the results.

markovs_gun

Yeah wouldn't the floodplains shift as well? I looked at local flood plains when I was looking for a house and I don't want to live in a flood prone area.

bschmidt715

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hinkley

China got rid of their rules for how many children you can have a long time ago but I suspect such trauma doesn’t leave a population easily.

In a world where people are considered illegal, you’ll have lots of people trying to leave no footprints and far away from seats of authority where your odds of drawing attention on accident are much better.

See also the trope of the quiet stranger who moves to a rural town and keeps to himself. Does he just like the peace and quiet or is there a warrant out for his arrest in South Carolina?

kspacewalk2

China replaced a one-child policy with a two-child policy in 2015, which was replaced by a three-child policy in 2021. So, far from getting rid of rules for how many children you can have a long time ago, they relaxed rules for how many children you can have a short while ago. Also, China isn't rural Alaska, it is a centralized authoritarian surveillance state and not the kind of place one can go off the grid and raise a family. Not that a non-vanishingly-small number of people is doing that anywhere, other than by happenstance in the poorest countries where "off the grid" is the default.

bobthepanda

As the saying goes in China "the mountains are high and the emperor is far away."

China is certainly an impressive surveillance state but the reality is that the geography is so large that it is possible to miss things like human trafficking: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/05/world/asia/xu...

RegnisGnaw

Its actually not that uncommon. China is not a monolithic entity. Rules are flexible and always have work around. In some cases, rural families that have a girl as a first kid will try again for a boy. They just don't register the girl for hukou.

lelandfe

The three-child policy was lifted just months later after some outcry: https://fortune.com/2021/07/21/china-three-child-policy-decl...

wodenokoto

It’s been just over a decade since I lived in China in a tier-1 city, but back then it was common to hear things like rural people would have multiple children, with only one registered.

hinkley

When we are speaking of children, time is on another scale. An 18 year period creates whole adults from nothing.

2015 means there are legal 10 years olds that would have not been legal before. And I expect some grey area 11 and 12 year olds that are surprisingly mature for their age.

econ

No one knows how many Chinese people don't exist on paper and how many have multiple [Chinese] passports. There is reason to think the numbers are very large.

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IncreasePosts

Weren't rural farmer types in china exempted from the one child rules? And all 50-something recognized non-Han minority groups?

foxglacier

China's authority reaches deep down to the community and office level. They have party members embedded everywhere keeping an eye on their neighbors and co-workers. I'd be surprised if they left any big rural areas un-surveilled.

tehjoker

It would be cool if any of our parties would give a fuck about how any of us are doing, but they don't. The communist party is supposed to be in tune with the people, and you can only do that by being with the people to understand what they need. Western propaganda pathologizes this to benefit capitalist ideology, because capitalists only are with the people to control them and make them work faster.

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araes

Part that got me midway through was the suspicion (confirmed at the end) that maybe the current 8,000,000,000 estimates for world population numbers have some rather large inaccuracies.

From the discussion:

> how reliable current global population estimates really are. For example, is it possible that global population estimates from the United Nations (7.98 billion in 2022) or World Bank (7.95 billion in 2022), both relying heavily on national population censuses, miss a significant part of the world population?

delichon

If this is true of the U.S. Census it would imply that congressional apportionment is biased against rural areas. So the question has a strong political valance and neutrality is not to be expected.

asadotzler

Rural Mississippi (O Brother, Where Art Though)

Delmar with companions: "You Wash's boy?"

Child with long gun: "Yessir and Daddy told me I'm to shoot whoever's from the bank."

Delmar: "Well, we ain't from no bank, young feller."

Child: "I'm also suppose to shoot folks servin' papers!"

Delmar: "Well we ain't got no papers"

Child: "I nicked the census man."

Delmar: "Now there's a good boy"

spookie

Well, this is the case in a lot of countries. On my home country each "state" has a number of representatives according to their population, and just the population. This has slowly but surely made it so laws are more and more biased towards metropolitan areas. From someone raised in a rural area it's mind boggling how far this has gotten. I guess this paper adds salt to injury.

mmooss

In the US, the bias is the other way: Effectively, the Constitution gerrymanders the US Senate in favor of rural populations. Every state gets two senators, so highly urban states with much greater population have fewer senators per person than rural states with much less population.

That also biases presidential elections, due to the way the Electoral College is calculated.

ty6853

Because the federal government was meant to be extremely limited and mostly serve to mediate _actual_ interstate commerce and foreign affairs. The oft ignored 10th amendment left most everything else to states or the people.

The system wasn't designed to fairly accommodate the gigantic social benefits, massive regulatory apparatus, and local spending apparatus the feds now get involved in. The people that designed the Senate thought that stuff mostly wildly unconstitutional. If they planned on that stuff being constitutional they'd have likely made the Senate more like the house in composition.

switchbak

Salt to injury? I give you props for a nicely mixed metaphor there.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF

It would have to be quite a large bias to overcome the bias of the Senate

tshaddox

That's only relevant when comparing states with low populations and states with high populations, which is related but not quite the same as biasing rural populations over urban populations. California has way more rural population than Vermont, but Vermont voters are vastly overrepresented in the Senate (and the electoral college).

The bias towards urban populations would be more significant in congressional districts within a state, I reckon.

tdb7893

Are the datasets in the study calculated the same way as the census? It looks to be satellite data and remote sensing (which I'm not aware of the census using) so this doesn't seem to imply anything about the census

aoki

It’s not.

A census literally counts every individual. Census public reports are aggregated for privacy.

This is about spatial disaggregation of aggregated census data. The problem in developing countries (which is what these datasets are used for) is that they often fail to run a complete census (in some cases, for many decades) because it is expensive and/or the government is not functional. So these datasets may not be well-calibrated overall.

The US has no problem running a decennial census, aside from nonresponse by immigrants, conspiracy theory enjoyers, etc.

InitialLastName

> A census literally counts every individual. Census public reports are aggregated for privacy.

Is there any evidence of how accurately the US census actually does that job? Having spoken with a number of people who were involved with the 2020 census (mostly on a volunteer, local basis) the answer is not "absolutely every person in the country got counted exactly once". There are a number of sources of error that would seem essentially impossible to fully remediate, due to people being complicated and error-prone and the census being largely self-reported:

- People in multiple households being counted twice, e.g. college students being counted both at college and at home.

- People who refuse to participate (one of the census-takers I know had someone wave a gun at her face when she tried to follow up on their household's non-response).

- People who are transient or disconnected enough from the social fabric that they are hard to maintain consistent contact with. I knew someone involved with taking the census for an urban unhoused population and there was no doubt that they both missed and double-counted people; I'm sure it's even more difficult for rural populations that might be even less connected and even more transient.

It's not hard to imagine that, on net and despite there being rules and processes for handling each of those situations, there ends up being regional and/or urban/rural bias in the final counts.

Aloisius

> Is there any evidence of how accurately the US census actually does that job?

Yes. The Census uses a post-enumeration survey for this purpose. They found evidence of significant under- or over-counting in 14 states for the 2020 census.

That was considerably worse than the 2010 census, though covid might be partly to blame. Still, afaik, there wasn't anywhere near the rural undercount described in the article.

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/05/2020-census-u...

DennisP

US rural people tend to trust the government less, so I could definitely see them getting undercounted.

The census should really have an option for refusers that collects an absolute minimum of information. The Constitution only asks that people be counted, not that they be broken down into categories.

At least it's just the short form now. Prior to 2010, one out of six people got the long form, which had ten pages of questions for each person in the household. Here's a pdf: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/programs-surveys/d...

mootothemax

> Having spoken with a number of people who were involved with the 2020 census (mostly on a volunteer, local basis) the answer is not "absolutely every person in the country got counted exactly once".

Do you have any thoughts on how the US census takes your insightful comment's points into account?

I imagine it's got to be quite an involved process given the vast differences in US geography, kinda blows my mind thinking about even basic stuff like age demographics vs. taking into account how many people died on census day.

But then - maybe that's too granular and it all balances out in the end? Or at least, it does if you use special magic sauce the US census has covered?

Spooky23

Trump 45 admin did not prioritize the census and their ramp up wasn’t particularly good as compared to past years. In my city there was like 30% fewer enumerators.

In the US, rural undercounting isn’t really a problem politically, although it has negative impacts on revenue allocation that is population based like sales taxes.

The biggest issue is that poor residents are underreported. This is both an urban and rural issue but from a numbers perspective impacts urban areas more.

mootothemax

>A census literally counts every individual.

I'm afraid that this isn't the case; a census is a best-efforts estimate.

There are plenty of people missed for a variety of reason, everything from not wanting to be found, through to simple avoidance. Let alone filling out the forms incorrectly or giving dud answers to the army of amazing people trying to make sense of all the madness.

Edit: realising the above has added to a long list of things that once upon a time I thought were hard-set facts, and nowadays I'm slowly losing my mind over. Coordinates, populated place boundaries, census counts + demographics... I mean, what _is_ an address? Incredibly painful to get to the bottom of that one, at least in the UK where the definition of an address will vary significantly by use case

screams into the void

ericmcer

There is just no way they count every individual. I live in California and was visiting someone in the central valley. For fun I drove some back dirt roads into some hills and there was a small corrugated sheet metal building style settlement with 20ish people hanging around it a ways back in. It really made me wonder how many people are tucked away. Not like a 24 year old kid who gets a college degree and intentionally lives off grid, but poor/uneducated people who eke out a living somewhere off the beaten path.

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Mountain_Skies

A census worker wasn't able to get in contact with the people who lived across the street from me. They suddenly moved out one weekend during the first summer of the pandemic and never came back, leaving the house vacant. I didn't know them very well, but the census worker asked me to make my best guess about the ages of each of the adult and child who had lived there.

Did that cause a double count due to them being counted wherever they moved to? Were my guesses correct? Or correct enough? No idea but that's the data the census worker recorded.

senkora

The census has an official date to avoid issues like this. Since they lived at the house across the street from you on the official census date of April 1st 2020, the census worker was correct to record them at that address.

They would only have been double counted if they incorrectly reported living at their new address as of April 1st.

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modeless

Is there compensation given to people resettled during dam construction?

pixl97

Given to people, or given to property owners?

bee_rider

Surely it depends on the jurisdiction

ajmurmann

And theory and practice might vary. I saw a heartbreaking segment in a documentary about the Three Gorges Dam about a very old couple who were supposed to receive compensation or replacement for their home being flooded. It never arrived. So we got to watch these two people in their late 70s or 80s carry their old home brick by brick up a steep mountain side.

aziaziazi

Return to Dust (隐入尘烟) - 2022 has some similarities but won’t say more (no spoil).

The movie is great and China censorship story worth a glance. There no direct critics but it depicts some collaterals of rural areas transformations. Also poetic and contemplative.

bschmidt501

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bschmidt716

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resource_waste

Tangent, but relevant to rural populations:

Something I recently discovered is that 'higher educated' groups are likely to be brainwashed by their higher education. If you had 0 education, and only experiences, you would only have the brutality of nature to refer to. Meanwhile, significant education and you have people believing in ascetic philosophies like Stoicism and idealistic IR like Liberalism/Institutionalism.

An uneducated person typically wont imagine the world to be a better place. They will comply with the realities on the ground. (Although, the prevalence of religion means even the slightest education corrupts such people)

The middle amount of education is the most damaging to the individual. They believe religion/educational idealism and live according to that. Highly educated people have surpassed that and learned about this effect, but this is limited to a small group of people. Uneducated people never had the chance.

Braxton1980

> Something I recently discovered is that 'higher educated' groups are likely to be brainwashed by their higher education.

How did you discover this?

Qwertious

Where is this group of mythical uneducated people who don't have TV or Facebook and don't talk to anyone who does?

paradox460

Rural Siberia? There's the famous Lykov family, and probably some others

lo_zamoyski

> If you had 0 education, and only experiences, you would only have the brutality of nature to refer to.

But such a person does not exist, as a big part of what it means to be a parent is to be the primary educator of one's children. You also grow up in a culture. What you're describing are feral human beings, in other words, people who are incredibly developmentally stunted as human beings.

> They believe religion[...] and live according to that.

This is quite a lazy and sloppy claim. What is religion, first of all? It isn't univocal. The best you can say univocally is something like "worldview". But everyone has some kind of worldview, so everyone is religious. So the question isn't "whether", but "how".

If by "religion", you mean a belief in God, then I urge you to look at the historically most important thinkers in history. Very few were atheists. And the atheists with the most intellectual heft didn't dismiss belief in God so casually. That kind of amateurish yucking it up is characteristic precisely of the intellectual halfwits you see among New Atheists. New Atheism is atheism for dummies.

renecito

"systematically", dude, it costs money, it might not be safe.

There are some rural places in the Mountains in places not so far from America where they harass and rape teachers, doctors or any government service employees.

The national census always struggles how to safely and practically reach those places.

plorkyeran

I think you've made up a meaning for "systematically" in your head that does not align with the normal meaning of that word or something? It being unsafe and expensive to count rural populations is something that would lead to systemic undercounting of rural populations, but you seem to be unhappy about that word being used?

alphan0n

Systematically and systemically are two different words with different meanings, despite both being related to systems.

The comment you’re replying to is correct in its usage.

Something done systematically is typically done explicitly and intentionally. This may be what the author of the article was implying, but the comment was pointing out that miscounting of the population due to an inability to perform the task is not systematic by definition.