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Milk Kanban

Milk Kanban

104 comments

·March 15, 2025

meindnoch

Cigarette rolling paper comes in a flat pack, from which you take the papers one by one, like a box of Kleenex. Towards the bottom of the pack, there's gonna be an odd-colored piece of paper, after which there still gonna be 10 pieces left in the box. The odd-colored paper tells you that it's time to buy a new pack, but you still have 10 cigarettes' worth.

Edit: found a photo of this phenomenon on r/antiassholedesign https://www.reddit.com/r/antiassholedesign/comments/cfndfa/g...

islewis

I recently noticed that there was a "Time to order" message written on the outside of the cardboard core of my saran wrap. The visibility to the core became clearer as the wrap was consumed- giving both a sense of urgency, as well as not letting you forget. I thought it was pretty clever.

cameronh90

One of the episodes of The Simpsons I saw as a kid that had a surprisingly large impact on how I think was where Willie had cameras in all of the bathrooms to monitor if they needed the toilet roll changed: “That roll of towels is nearin' its end! She's on double red stripe!”

kaffekaka

I absolutely did read this in Willies voice.

dhosek

The practice of having a slip that read “Five leaves left” was where Nick Drake got the title for his first album (somewhat eerily recorded five years before his death).

locusofself

One of the best albums ever IMO, just finished the excellent biography that came out a couple years ago by Richard Morton Jack

ctm92

Receipt paper rolls also have this: When the roll is near the end there are pink stripes, telling the cashier to have a new roll nearby as the printer is about to run out of paper

throwaway7783

I think this is now a common pattern. Simplehuman trash bag boxes have a tag that says "you are running low", on the 10th (or so) bag from last.

jldugger

I just put a few at the bottom of the trashcan, so when the box runs out I still have some time to buy a new supply.

ruraljuror

My first thought as well. Simplehuman, whose products and designs I admire, also include QR codes to reorder on the reminder and a refrigerator magnet included with the trashcan.

xbryanx

SimpleHuman trashbags do the same thing. When you pull the 5th last bag, it has a big tag reminding you to order more.

polishdude20

Certain dog poop bags have this but they have a sticker about three bags left that says "three bags left"

jimnotgym

> When people say Kanban, they tend to think of a specific set of practices. Whiteboards & sticky notes (both almost universally virtual).

When software developers say Kanban, they tend to think of whiteboards. For anyone who works in manufacturing they would have thought about replenishment first. It is completely ubiquitous anywhere where taking something from a location signals a need for replenishment.These days it is often virtually, where an ERP sees an order taking something below some level, triggering purchase or manufacture of a replacement.

I understand the literal translation of Kanban is 'coloured badge' btw

flail

That's true. The notion of what Kanban is differs between knowledge work (stemming mostly from software development adaptations) and manufacturing.

Since my context is primarily IT I made some simplifications when describing the context.

Admittedly, the principles are the same. However, because of the differences in the nature of the work, different areas are stressed. A notable example is how differently "removing waste" is considered between IT and manufacturing.

Anyway, yes, whiteboards and sticky notes are staple artifacts of software development/knowledge work context. "Old-school" (since it started decades earlier there) manufacturing is much more creative with designing visual signals.

On the other hand, knowledge work typically handles uncertainty and variability of work way better. That stems from a different type of process (more creative, less repeatable) and unique nature of each individual task.

jimnotgym

>On the other hand, knowledge work typically handles uncertainty and variability of work way better.

I am not sure that is true, they are very different but I wouldn't say one handles it better.

One of the factories in involved in builds to order on a short lead time. We produce 2500 machines a day, from a wide range with many configuration options. There are various sub assemblies that have to be built first. On any given day there will be shortages on various components, meaning we can't build what we want. There will be quality issues with materials meaning reworks and changes in process. There will be design up-issues to address material changes, firmware problems, or customer demands. There are 400+ people to coordinate. This is all done whilst still shipping 99.9% within the lead time. We don't know anything for certain about our demand in 10 days time. It seems much more complex and adaptable to me than when I ran a software team

eikenberry

I've worked on multiple Kanban software dev teams and a whiteboard never came into play, vs. the scrum or extreme-agile teams which loved them. Kanban seems more about having tickets organized into a priority ordered queue of tasks.

Aurornis

> I've worked on multiple Kanban software dev teams and a whiteboard never came into play,

Most teams don’t literally use a physical whiteboard, they use some software that represents the whiteboard.

Do an image search for “Kanban board” and you’ll get a mix of physical whiteboards and software dashboards that imitate the same columnar style.

Though one thing about software development practices is that names have become nearly meaningless as people have adopted different variations. I worked at one company recently that proudly bragged about their “agile methodology” but also demanded everything be planned 6-9 months in advance and made a big deal about tracking metrics for sprint accuracy and failure to complete tickets on time (including too early!).

flail

That is an interesting observation.

The first two (and I would say key) practices of Kanban (as a method) are: - visualize work(flow) - limit work in progress

So I wonder, how did these Kanban teams visualize work exactly?

Now, I don't say the whiteboard (virtual or physical) is the only way to do it, yet it's almost ubiquitous.

lotyrin

It's closer to "sign" or a bit more specifically "signboard".

galaxyLogic

So in terms of SW development would that mean we have slips saying "Only 5 Tasks left, come up with new ones"?

anymouse123456

The central idea is that traditional manufacturing (and software) environments attempt to PUSH work through the system. This leads to tons of unintended consequences that ultimately sacrifices quality and throughput. Not only defeating the purpose of applying the pressure, but also (sometimes) destroying the reputation of the organizations that do it.

The observation of the Toyota Production System, was that we should make quality non-negotiable and then observe the system that emerges.

We let the system PULL work through it, rather than attempting to PUSH. In this way, we can make observations and improvements without applying negative pressure (that results in waste) on any given work center. Raw materials are only released into the process when the previous batch has nearly been consumed, regardless of some manager's desires.

The insight of early Agile practices, was that we might be able to use Stories as a metaphor for Raw Materials and the system we're working within converts those raw materials into something valuable to the customers and/or business.

There are a number of good reasons this metaphor doesn't fit perfectly, but one of the biggest ones is that while both manufacturing and software development can be creative processes, software development represents a much higher percentage of creative work than operating a cell in a generally well-defined production process.

The Kanban boards in Software Workflows were originally intended to make visible the actual throughput of a team, and help us resist releasing new stories into production if the team hasn't yet digested the previous set.

I've definitely seen environments that use these tools with little to no comprehension as to where (or why) they came from and I suspect that has become more of the norm as I've withdrawn into my own little corner of the universe.

If any of this sounds interesting, I highly recommend the book, "The Goal"

jimnotgym

Definitely recommend "The Goal", it is fascinating to see its influence on "The Phoenix Project".

I would also offer a recommendation for any jaded hacker. Go and work for a manufacturing company. Seeing real world problems solved by lean experts and process engineers is fascinating. See Kaizen (Continuos incremental improvement) in action in critical systems, systems where a mistake can't be reverted easily and the consequences are huge. See them manage complexity. It is a real education.

switchbak

> I suspect that has become more of the norm as I've withdrawn into my own little corner of the universe.

I often wonder what happened to the early grass roots agile community. I know I’ve withdrawn into my world too, I wonder how common that is?

I often feel like we’ve taken steps backward from where we used to be. Not sure how much of that is just my latent curmudgeon though.

pdpi

Only 10% disk space left. Peak memory usage at 90% available RAM. $CRITICAL_PACKAGE version update has been available for 2 months.

Once you see the pattern, it can be used all over the place: Pre-programmed proactive reminders for all sorts of upkeep chores that you don't want to spend mental bandwidth on.

CityOfThrowaway

Another thing I really like about Kasia's milk system is that it is a zero-emotional overhead communication. Just take the ticket and put it on her desk, and all will be handled.

eacapeisfutuile

First install truck horns, and have that go off for the dev being assigned a ticket.

devenson

Depends how far away her desk is.

flail

For all but 4 people, it's on the way to their own desks.

I bet that when someone just drops the card on the kitchen table, someone else would carry it to Kasia. As far as I know, dropping the card has never happened.

Nonetheless, the comment is spot on. If people needed to go far from their regular tracks, it might have been less reliable. Good system design means that doing the right thing is the easy/easiest thing.

woleium

Yeah, I think i would make it “put this card in the reorder box”

bdunks

That’s a very nice Kaizen of this Kanban. Very scalable. The office may not have thought of it yet.

oniony

And then they have to poll the reorder box every day?

zopa

> And it’s a healthy wake-up call when someone who knows close to nothing about our fancy stuff designs a system that we would unlikely think of.

I can't tell if the author asked Kasia how she came up with the idea? For all we know she's doing an MBA in the evenings and just wrote a paper on the history of just-in-time manufacturing in the Japanese auto industry.

crusty

Is there even a Kasia, or did the author print out that note to establish her invented character just for the benefit of her blog's narrative? Does it really matter?

flail

Oh, there is a real Kasia. Although she's a person of many talents, I would be genuinely surprised if she spent evenings studying Japanese management methods.

The solution she designed, however, is as if she already knew all of that part of the MBA program :)

Which shows how significant parts of these methods have roots in basic awareness and perceptiveness to how the work gets done. Lean/Agile only codified some of these good practices. Unfortunately, they also petrified a lot of specific techniques. But that's another story.

bob1029

> In its original meaning, Kanban represented a visual signal. The thing that communicated, well, something. It might have been a need, option, availability, capacity, request, etc.

> the system is self-explanatory

I've always known of this as an "affordance" - An available & apparent interaction between an object and its user.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Design_of_Everyday_Things

flail

That's a great analogy!

On the one hand, the context is different. An affordance, as you point out, signals how we should use an item. In a way, it suggests a meaning. A kanban's meaning is typically defined as the process (largely) is known.

In the story about Milk Kanban, the index card is self-explanatory, but that's just an extra bit, to make the process more bullet-proof.

On the other hand, if we generalize both examples, we land in a place where the design (of things, of processes) should communicate how to act. I either interact with an object or I do my action within a process.

BTW: The Design of Everyday Things is another great reading recommendation in this thread.

ricardobeat

There is definitely a connection there, but affordance is a concept specific to interaction design and something having a physically self-evident purpose (handles, buttons, levers, knobs, etc).

ramses0

There's a field of study called "mechanism design"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_design

...you have to squint a bit, but I've taken it to mean influencing the behavior of unknown or mildly uncooperative participants.

My main example of success was drawing a dotted line with a sharpie about 25% from the bottom of the water filter pitcher in the fridge (back with college roommates).

Basically overnight, the probability of me finding the water pitcher empty in the fridge went from 50% to like 10%.

The visual indicator (with only implied instructions) resulted in positive behavior changes.

Related is "poke-yoke/kaizen" of "mistake proofing, continual improvement, and making problems visible".

Being aware of these fields of study and their techniques can be applied to many areas in work and home.

galaxyLogic

In the office I worked it was never an issue that we were out of milk. It was that people brought in their own milk cartoons and put them in the fridge, so others could have milk too. Nice. Thanks to whoever brought it!

But then nobody removed that cartoon from fridge so it started to stink, and remained in the fridge still. Then no-one in particual was eager to tackle the bad smell, it definitely was not their job.

smusamashah

> It should be as simple as possible (but not simpler)

I have seen this phrase a number of times. What does it mean?

flail

There is a level of oversimplification beyond which the solution stops serving its purpose.

If this discussion board was just a shared doc in which everyone could write, that might be a "too simple" solution. Basic control over one's writing is what we expect in solutions such as this.

With Milk Kanban, it might have been just asking people to tell Kasia when they take the last carton. Would it be a simpler solution? Yes. Would it work? Well, I guess there is a reason why we do have these index cards.

askvictor

Any simpler and it would not be effective for it's intended purpose?

jrootabega

While this can be mitigated somewhat by keeping backups on hand, the card helps because it gives you a convenient record of needing to restock, which you can just drop somewhere you know it will be used. Even in personal life that might be a good idea. Dropping an empty box of pasta or dental floss on the ground also serves as a convenient reminder, but it's harder to do with a can of tuna.

exitb

It’s an interesting idea, but I’m not convinced it’s a good one. Office managers (or any kind of managers, really) are hired to remove a class of problems, so other people can focus on their job. This is outsourcing bits and pieces of your responsibilities to random coworkers. That being said, none of it is uncommon in modern corporate workplace.

daveguy

Kasia, the person who placed the note and requests its return, is the office manager. Giving someone an easy visual cue and task for keeping things running smoothly seems like great office manager work and organization rather than shirking any type of responsibility.

mystifyingpoi

Agree. I dig the idea, really cool, but quoting the article:

> it becomes a pain to check the cupboard with milk reserves every now and then

If freaking glancing into the shelf once a day (or more like once a week, because this milk has months of shelf life) in scope of full time office manager job is "a pain", maybe that office manager should rethink their employment there.

analog31

>>> maybe that office manager should rethink their employment there.

A near-universal feature of office managers is that they are continually rethinking their employment.

ctm92

If its only milk, then this polling might work. But might be also coffee, printer paper, pencils, whatever and you end up doing nothing else than checking shelves all day

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CraigJPerry

That’s all the more reason to go event driven right?

If the milk needed replenishing more often, maybe polling the shelf makes more sense - hey the rate of consumption is higher today, I’ll re-order early. That high throughput optimisation doesn’t really shake out if you’re always just waiting for the replenishment event to fire.

daveguy

Or maybe if putting a piece of paper on someone's desk for precise restocking is too much of "a pain" to the person who drank the milk, then they should rethink their employment there.

soerxpso

The job of the person drinking the milk presumably has nothing to do with moving cards to people's desks. The job of the office manager is literally to keep the milk stocked. When keeping the milk stocked becomes a sidequest for every other employee (who have other jobs to do), what is the office manager actually doing? Bringing the card to the office manager's desk doesn't actually sound much harder than ordering more milk. Why don't we just have the card say, "If you see this card, order more milk" with instructions for how to do that?

crazygringo

I'm interrupted in the office a hundred times a day.

It is guaranteed to happen that as I grab the paper and walk to the person's desk, something more important comes up as somebody sees me, and then I have a meeting, and the piece of paper simply isn't important enough to remember next to my other responsibilities.

Employees are paid to do the work they're best at. It's a bad use of resources to have them tracking office supplies, emptying their wastebins, vacuuming their floor area, restocking toilet paper, or alerting the office manager when milk is low.

For a tiny, cash-strapped startup they might have to do all those things, but generally it's not optimal.

Edit: just to be clear and in response to downvotes, this isn't an ego or self-importance thing. It's just the fact that when in conflict, it is genuinely more important for the company for me to address an urgent technical issue, and show up to an important meeting on time, than to finish running across the office to drop off a post-it note about milk. I already never have enough hours in the day to do everything that needs to get done for my job, and everything is a question of prioritization. I'm just trying to give a realistic perspective here, that we separate out job responsibilities for a good reason.

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layer8

This is a form of artifacts as reminders: https://pim.famnit.upr.si/wp/?p=288

Kwpolska

The system seems inefficient, as the sticky notes look the same. So Kasia has to go to the cupboard and check what to buy.

pavon

They probably want to check anyway to see if anything else is getting low (or ran out because a note wasn't delivered) to decrease the number of restocking orders placed. The notes just help indicate when an order needs to be placed earlier than expected.

jason_oster

Solution: The specific brand is written on the back of the card.