Ask HN: Any jobs that don't force you to always be advancing career wise?
133 comments
·March 14, 2025pelagicAustral
Get the same job working for government. Work stability in government is unparalleled, and there is so much cruft and technical debt that you will literally spend up until your last breath fixing legacy code and trying to get people off ancient software systems.
You will stagnate, and nobody will give a shit. People will come and go next to you, but you will be stable through the ages, like a pillar in an ancient Roman temple... Seasons will leave behind memories, but the winds will not take you with them. You will prevail, no matter what. Maybe forgotten, maybe overlooked, but more certainly not underestimated.
mrcsharp
This basically shows why DOGE is a thing. This sort of attitude is why governments are slow to achieve anything, why any government contract ends up over budget, etc...
I await your downvotes.
kweingar
If the government was a dynamic work environment, it would burn just as much money. But instead of saying "the project went over budget", they'd say "we executed a strategic pivot."
Instead of employees "stagnating", employees would launch all sorts of initiatives and then abandon them after getting promoted.
Instead of maintaining legacy systems for decades, teams would turn down systems so that employees can work on shinier greenfield projects, leaving users in the lurch.
I do not oppose government efficiency. I support reforms to identify and eliminate waste in government. Unfortunately that's not what DOGE is doing.
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scarface_74
Have you checked on what’s going on in the government this year?
Vilian
History tells that it isn't recommended to get a job in a fascist government, or one bordering it, maybe change to a democratic country
Am4TIfIsER0ppos
How can I do the opposite? Are they looking for collaborators?
scarface_74
Because it’s really easy to move to a foreign country and be legally allowed to work there.
leereeves
Even with that, work security in government is still unparalleled. In the private sector, if the chief executive wanted to lay off 90% of the workforce, they could.
Compare the downsizing of Twitter to the downsizing of the government.
idontwantthis
Literally the same guy is doing the downsizing with the same level of care. What are you talking about?
dartharva
I wouldn't be so sure considering what's happening with federal govt offices in the US right now..
Onawa
Yep, I'm a federal contractor working in NIH as a data scientist, and completely agree with the above comment.
Before November, I would have said the same thing as the parent comment. After January 20th, everyone who is left is currently looking for backups in case they get laid off.
Gov and fed contractor positions used to be the most stable jobs you could get. Now, they are just as uncertain as industry jobs. It's extremely unfortunate.
not2b
I'd say that they are more uncertain than industry jobs at this point, unless you're talking about companies that have recently been taken over by private equity where the new owners intend to gut the place and sell off the parts.
pelagicAustral
Sorry to hear... I hope this situation gets sorted sooner rather than later.
dgfitz
Defense contractors most likely do not share the same sentiment.
MangoCoffee
I don't think it's that different from the private sector. I've been with my current employer for almost 7 years. The company has been sold twice with layoffs. My manager, who hired me years ago, is leaving.
ac-swe
state & local are always options
pelagicAustral
yeah... There is always a niche in government. Plus, I haven't heard of many layoffs affecting software teams in government. Some people are so deeply rooted in their specific concerns that taking them out of a codebase is borderline like cutting the wrong cable on a bomb.
giantg2
Government adjacent jobs with NGOs that are not federal government funded might also be options.
apwell23
how about working for state govts like IL or CA. I have friends in both but they are not worried (yet).
kdevlin
[dead]
CoastalCoder
In the U.S., maybe somewhere like Naval Undersea Warfare Centers (at least when I worked there).
The problems they're solving are pretty constant, but they go very deep technically for those who are interested. There's a very long learning curve compared to most private sector jobs, but you can power through it in proportion to your personal ambitions.
Downsides: (1) You're a political punching bag for 50% of the candidates in each federal election, except in years where military power is on the electorates' minds. (2) Mediocre pay. (3) Soul-crushing bureaucracy. (4) It's the only job I've ever had where the employer has missed payroll.
Other pros: (1) Working with the same folks for many years can be nice. (2) Within limits, national defense is really important. If you want it done well, this is an opportunity to pitch in.
Caveat: invading Greenland or Panama isn't what I'd call "national defense". But the learning curve / hiring process are too cumbersome to quit and rejoin every 4 years depending on politics. I know of no good solution to this one.
cbsks
I interviewed at NUWC Keyport when I was in college. Seemed like an interesting place to work but they didn’t have any real programming roles at the time. My interviewer asked if I had experience with UML and talked about how he wanted someone to document and optimize their assembly line procedures. I’m not sure he knew exactly what he wanted.
CoastalCoder
In my experience, tasking was really department-specific.
On the bright side, once you were inside and got your bearings, it was reasonably easy to get transferred to a department that better suited one's interests.
ConfusedDog
"National defense" as defense of nation's interests. Politicians can phrase it however they like. Pay is meh, benefits are pretty good if you locked into 0.4% FERS deduction prior 2013, that's like 16% annualized compounding... health insurance is getting less and less attractive by the year. Salary growth is also slow and next few years probably gonna be a big fat zero and eaten alive by inflation. Like OP said, it does feel like turning into a rock solid pillar and getting forgotten.
CoastalCoder
I was at NUWC Newport. Depending on the department, there was more or less programming to be done.
billy99k
One option is to find a job that has legacy work. A good place to look is a non-tech company. IE: a company that might use tech to run the business (which you will support), but tech isn't their main product. These companies tend be using older software because they aren't really required to have the latest and greatest.
jesse__
I've heard law firms are a good bet
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romanhn
Lots of large tech firms have defined career ladders with a concept of terminal levels - typically senior level beyond which there is no up-or-out expectation of growth. I think small and midsize companies that focus on fast growth will often carry this expectation, so I'd avoid those. Alternatively: small non-startups or large companies beyond their prime (again, lack of company-wide focus on rapid growth is key here).
dnissley
Even there giving the impression of not wanting to advance is often a good way to mark yourself as a "low performer". A savvy understanding of politics is required in these circumstances.
bigtimesink
Promos before the terminal level are easy because your manager wants to retain you. After the terminal level, they're used as carrots to squeeze more work out of you. One scenario to look out for is the company doing well. You realize your RSUs are worth more than job hopping, so you aim for adequate, but the company doesn't like that you opted out of the staff promo rat race.
dowager_dan99
these are the first people to go in times of trouble or politics, which is a real shame because the bulk of work in almost all companies is done by solid, experienced workers, not rockstar hierarchy climbers
JohnFen
> Has anyone worked somewhere that they felt they could just do their job without worrying about the career advancement aspect?
That's every place I've ever worked, to be honest, including tech megacorps. Lots of places will put a lot of emphasis on career advancement, but I've never seen anyone punished for not doing it. I'm not counting "won't get promoted" as a punishment, for obvious reasons.
giantg2
My non-tech company seems to also have this up or out mentality. They don't have a specific timeline, but if you're a midlevel for too long like me, they definitely try to manage you out. I've had a few friends who are managers confirm this.
aaronbaugher
Yeah, you can run into it anywhere. When I was in the pizza delivery business in my early 20s, once you got into management, there was very much an up-or-out mentality. You couldn't just be a really good assistant manager; you were pushed to move up to manager and then to a bigger store and so on. It just seems to bother the climbers to see someone content to stay in the position he knows he's best suited for.
hellisothers
My theory is they want more than they pay for. They want to pay you the salary for Level X while you work hard to get to Level X+1
giantg2
I have a disability, so I'm stuck where I'm at.
boredatoms
FB (10 years ago atleast) had a timelimit to go from L4 to L5
romanhn
That's because L5 was the terminal senior level (whereas L4 is still mid-level).
lokar
Google as well
apwell23
L5 and chill
anon743448
The key is to keep switching teams. If you stay in same team for a long time, your manager will start pushing you for promotion, either because they like you and start feeling bad for you or maybe they are pressured by their higher ups.
williamsmj
Bloomberg. The terminal level on their IC ladder is "Senior". They have no formal concept of Staff or Principal engineer. People spend decades there.
blitzar
Most of finance is flat (or two tiers at least - upper management and everyone else) - that was going to be my reccomendation.
twic
Thirded. Plenty of 40+ geezers on trading desks who have been doing the same job for a decade or two (although that job changes constantly, of course).
zerr
But do they also receive the same salary?
thewebguyd
Try to look for small/medium non-tech companies. There's quite a few out there that have dev teams but their primary product or service isn't software. The downside to that though is pay likely won't be as good as big tech, and sometimes they can be hit or miss with being able to work on exciting or new stuff.
I work for a medium-ish company (around 250 employees), and we're just a small team two devs, and a sysadmin basically and are pretty autonomous and there's no "up or out" expectation for anyone here.
There's definitely downsides - no one outside of our team has any technical ability whatsoever so communicating requirements back and forth is difficult, and a lot of the work is boring business CRUD and integrating SaaS products together, but it pays well enough and I love being pretty much autonomous on our small team. Most days it just fees like I'm a contractor.
All that being said, I'm almost 40 so I don't mind the boring enterprisey work. In my younger years this job would've burned me out super fast, just something to keep in mind.
giantg2
Maybe just job-hop. Sure, you're a senior for 10 years at one company, then be a senior at another company for another 10 years. I know that's easier said than done, and could run into ageism as you get older.
seanw444
I keep hearing about this "ageism" but it's never made sense to me. I would always want to hire an older, wiser developer, if I were calling the shots. Why is this a thing?
dowager_dan99
I'm 50+ and it's a thing, but not really different than any other bias lots of people here likey deal with. It's not legit but does make sense: any groups that you don't identify with are assessed differently based on the delta. Sometimes this is positive; most times negative.
cantrecallmypwd
It's definitely a thing.
Just one example: I was working at Stanford in the Med School and one of the admin people was forced out simply for the crime of being "old" without any specific performance problem or inability.
Another anecdotal negative confirmation: When I was 19, I was constantly offered jobs. You don't hear me singing that tune anymore.
scarface_74
I have been constantly offered jobs from the time I was 22 until last year when I was 50.
bradlys
Older wiser developer has less tolerance for bullshit and wants higher pay. Older wiser developer is less likely to be on a visa because they've probably been working in the country for a while. They're less likely to be foreign as well because the giant surge of foreigners (Indian/Chinese) coming to US is something that has happened in the last 15 years. If you have 20+ years of experience in the US, you're much more likely to be American or at least a citizen or have a greencard.
In all senses, older developers want more and have a better positioning to negotiate from. For capitalists, this is exactly what they don't want.
It's not really ageism as much as it is the associations that come with older age. If you were as naive, desperate, and cheap as a new grad - you'd get more easily hired too. Oh and a lot of older devs don't like the grindy leetcode nature of interviews because it takes a lot of time outside of work to study for and they prefer to do other things with their time. (In half of my FAANG interviews, I get asked LC Hard problems regularly. The bar to pass is very high.)
scarface_74
I’m 50.
It has never taken me more than a month to get a job when I was looking and most of the time at least two offers.
I changed jobs when I was 25, 34, 37, 39, 41, 44, 46, 49 and 50.
My first only and hopefully last job in BigTech was at 46.
If you are old and have the experience, network and reputation you should have built based on your age, the world is your oyster.
If you don’t have experience with current technology, you’re screwed.
giantg2
If you're getting hired based on network, then you don't know the struggle.
scarface_74
My network includes recruiters.
But if I look back.
- 2008 (34) - spammed job boards.
- 2012 (37) - reached out to third party recruiters via LinkedIn
- 2014 (40) - reached out to internal recruiter on LinkedIn
- 2016 (42) - reached out to a recruiter I met earlier.
- 2018 (44) - reached out to a recruiter I met earlier
- 2020 (46) - Amazon (AWS Professional Services) recruiter reached out to me.
- 2023 (49) - targeted outreach to a recruiter based on a niche of niche within AWS where I was an SME.
- 2024 - responded to recruiter who reached out to me.
To be fair, in 2020, I did pivot from “software developer” to working in cloud consulting specializing in app dev - working full time for consulting departments/companies
blackhn
10 years rofl
bloomingkales
Reframe it - no job has ever advanced you career wise. There's no curriculum, it's just a random hodpodge of tech stacks and features. If you advanced, that was on you. There was no professor or tutor there, no gun to your head, certainly no mom or dad. It was just you, your drive, your talent, and whatever you perceived as a challenge or trial. If you want to stop advancing, that's on you, as it always was.
soneca
Not on “up or out” companies. But, sure, my suggestion would be to find another company without that mentality
jghn
Most companies have a similar profile. There's an up-or-out phase and then there's some level where it no longer matters. Because titles are all over the place it's hard to predict what that level is. But it roughly translates to the point where your value exceeds your cost. For most software companies this is usually the point where one is a very capable IC, able to work independently, as well as able to guide & mentor more junior employees. YMMV
It will never be the case that it's okay to coast for a long time at the lower/middle levels because in the grand scheme of things you're not worth the hassle for them.
fancyfredbot
Try to think of this from the organisation's point of view. The up or out culture serves two purposes. It helps ensure senior roles go to people they know well and trust, and it ensures there is room for other ambitious and motivated people to move up.
In other words the whole objective is to have a well run organisation with motivated employees. The objective is definitely not to force hard working and talented people to leave.
If you are hard working and talented it's incredibly unlikely they will want to push you out and then go through the whole process of hiring and training a replacement. It's worth having a conversation with your manager before looking for a new job.
pbronez
Yes. Once I was leaving a managerial role for a lateral transfer and helped choose my replacement. One candidate was a high performing individual contributor. They felt obligated to apply for the job, but didn't really want it. They liked their current job and did it well. They were assured that they're welcome to continue as an IC at their current level as long as they continue to perform at their current level.
Worked out great. They have their role and continue to enjoy it and perform well. The managerial role went to someone with clear upward intention, who is also enjoying it and performing well.
taylorbuley
A good dev manager would be thrilled to have a senior like you on their team. Rockstars are great, but bedrock employees are better.
(Throwaway for hopefully obvious reasons) I’m a software developer (web, fullstack) that’s been in the industry for about 10 years now and I’ve gotten to a point where I don’t care about advancing my career. My current title is Senior Software Engineer and, if I had it my way, I would be happy to keep that title for the rest of my career. I tried being a manager for a bit and hated it, and, in a similar fashion, the increased responsibility and scope of going down the road of Staff+ engineer holds no interest to me.
My only issue is that my current job has a very strong “up or out” mentality that I’m starting to push up against. And most other places I’ve worked at or talk about with friends seem to have similar attitudes toward career progression. I just want to do my job well, learn new things, and contribute to the businesses success. I don’t want to have to try and figure out with my manager what projects I should work on to make myself look good and be able to work my way up the ladder.
Has anyone worked somewhere that they felt they could just do their job without worrying about the career advancement aspect? I’ve contracted a bit and know that this would align well with this goal, but I enjoy having health insurance and not having to scrounge for work all the time.