Father tries to block daughter's euthanasia in landmark Spanish case
117 comments
·March 4, 2025_whiteCaps_
jsbisviewtiful
Just had a family member die after many years of descent into dementia. Absolutely don't want that for myself and would love the ejector seat as an option. Unfortunately the US is on an intellectual backslide, so hopefully in a few decades when I may also be susceptible something has changed and I will be allowed to do what I want with my own body and life.
Symmetry
Of if you you don't want to trudge out to a hospital but are happy with written things by a doctor or quoting them:
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/your-money/how-doctors-di...
https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay...
llm_nerd
"If you're undecided about this"
As with many things, it's a very slippery slope and it is far more nuanced and not easily "decided".
MAiD for someone in the final stages of a terminal illness is a far cry from government workers suggesting MAiD to a healthy paralympian veteran asking for a wheelchair ramp (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted...). And of course we have expanded MAID to people suffering from mental illnesses, and it's something people are pursuing now because they can't afford rent. Oh and the government is recommending that MAiD be expanded to minors.
And FWIW, we've long had MAiD - people with terminal illnesses usually got ever escalating doses of painkillers until their body gives up. It's more formalized now, but as with almost everything people with "good intentions" push it to the point where something simple becomes hugely contentious.
bryanlarsen
Which is why MAID requires two independent doctors and a cooling off period, and a bunch of red tape. There's a lot of red tape for a reason. It takes a lot more for it to happen than a single degenerate case manager who has since been fired.
llm_nerd
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/article/woman-with-chemical-se...
In that case a woman with chemical sensitivities was killed by the state.
Again, the premise is good. But as always it gets expanded and cases like this become normalized. And soon there is talk about more cases. Rinse and repeat. It's how good ideas become destroyed and hugely contentious.
Basically no one has a problem with MAiD for the final stages of a terminal illness. But people just can't stop themselves.
pjc50
> MAiD for someone in the final stages of a terminal illness is a far cry from government workers suggesting MAiD to a healthy paralympian veteran asking for a wheelchair ramp
Yeah, this has pushed me from being roughly in favor of allowing it to considerable caution. It may or may not be OK for people to make the decision for themselves, but it absolutely is wrong to push people to it.
_whiteCaps_
> And FWIW, we've long had MAiD - people with terminal illnesses usually got ever escalating doses of painkillers until their body gives up. It's more formalized now, but as with almost everything people with "good intentions" push it to the point where something simple becomes hugely contentious.
With my mom's experience, the old informal system was horrible and undignified. I'm glad we have this new system in place.
billy99k
[flagged]
david-gpu
You are entitled to not want a dignified death for yourself. You are not entitled to take that right away from others.
llm_nerd
>This is barbaric
Any country without universal healthcare is barbaric. Absolutely perverse that you try to pin this on "socialized healthcare" when you herald a nation with a lifespan a half decade shorter, and worse outcomes in most categories of illnesses.
I'm a huge critic of the overreach of MAiD in Canada, but the number of people who die from treatable illnesses is much higher in the US, so maybe you should retire the tired "socialized healthcare" canard.
rtkwe
I feel for the dad but it really seems like a case he shouldn't even have standing to bring. The daughter is a full blown 23 year old adult, unless she's been adjudicated as incompetent to make her own decisions and he has a guardianship of some sort she should be fully autonomous.
jisnsm
She tried to kill herself three years ago so it seems she’s not fit to make such decisions.
rtkwe
Other side of the coin; she's wanted to kill herself for a long time but failed and is now unable to do it herself due to the damage of the previous attempt.
Suicide attempt does not equal losing all your rights to self determination.
dylan604
I know by law a 23 year old is considered an adult, but full blown seems to be hyperbolic.
david-gpu
Being old enough to go to war means being old enough to make life altering decisions by herself.
ninetyninenine
Adults are just children with more money.
Everyone needs guidance. There are plenty of stories of interrupted suicides that ultimately changed the fate of an individual. They were saved and they were glad they were saved. This happens at all ages.
The fact that you can say that being old enough to go to war means that someone is old enough to make life altering decisions as if just this arbitrary numeric number means something because it was encoded into law shows that you’re not ready to say who has the right to go to war, go to war yourself, nor say anything about who has the right to go suicide.
Think before you follow some arbitrary rule and make that rule the axiom for your logic.
dylan604
It is pretty well accepted that the human brain does not fully mature until mid-20s. So a full blown adult is different than legally considered adult.
haunter
Founding fathers age on July 4, 1776:
James Monroe, 18
Aaron Burr, 20
Alexander Hamilton, 21
James Madison, 25
BiteCode_dev
Napoleon Bonaparte was lieutenant-colonel of a battalion at 23.
prmoustache
Had he not been lieutenant-colonel at that age maybe he could have had a quiet happy life instead of ruining and ending the one of thousands of his contemporaries and having his own life end so badly.
philipwhiuk
How old is 'full blown' in your view then? 30? 40? 50?
rtkwe
As a society, through laws, we've decided there's an age where a person is mature enough to be granted autonomy separate from their parents. If we start trying to decide when they're mature by brain development we'll probably find the brain never really stops growing and changing and even if there is a general age it'll be different for every person as everyone develops differently. That's an untenable standard.
mofeing
The lawyer team of the father, "Abogados Cristianos", have a bad reputation here in Spain for suing everything they can that it's "not-conservative": from women trying to abort to comedians due to some joke. Most of their lawsuits are rejected, but when a judge accepts it they get some notority in the media.
DiggyJohnson
This doesn’t seem like it’s surprising considering the case or an issue at all without further information.
elnatro
“Abogados Cristianos” (conservative association) has the same reputation for the left-leaning than “El jueves” (far-left comedy publication) has for the right-leaning.
Let’s be a bit objetive with our opinions.
Edit: downvotes for telling the truth.
francasso
While I understand the dad's pain, the amount of egoism required to put your wishes in front of your suffering daughter is unreal. If she is rationally able to make decisions and after talking with her family/loved ones and medical professionals she still wants to die, that decision should be respected.
And the christians that think that their beliefs gives them any right to prolong the torture that other human beings are subject to... It's impolite to say what I would do to them.
ThrowawayTestr
>If she is rationally able to make decisions
That is what the father is contesting.
webstrand
That's incredibly shortsighted if the court accepts the argument that she changed her mind a number of times. This only encourages people, who might change the minds and opt not to die, to stand by their decision even if uncertain or the court will rip away their choice.
inetknght
Whether you're for or against someone deciding for themselves when to end their lives; whether you're for or against someone deciding to end their suffering; you absolutely should allow medical personnel to volunteer to assist. Botched suicides end up with way more suffering for all parties involved.
btilly
The vast majority of suicide attempts end with a live person who has no long-term effects. The vast majority of medically assisted suicide attempts end with a dead person.
Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person.
notesinthefield
I dont think this perspective is valid in the context of a fully intentional and informed medically assisted suicide.
ninetyninenine
It is valid. Euthanasia is suicide.
If the bullet travels fast enough into the skull before the brain can register pain then there is no difference in experience from assisted suicide to eating a bullet. The only difference is the risk of a botched suicide but outside of that the two things are one and the same.
I use extreme language here not to offend people but to illustrate that they are logically the same thing. If you think euthanasia is humane then so is putting a bullet in your own head. If you think putting a bullet in your own head is extreme, then so is euthanasia. Think logically.
Also I love this idea of age being a marker for maturity and the ability to make your own decisions. If my daughter turns 18 at 12:00pm sharp then at 11:59am she is not mature enough to kill herself. But then one second later when she turns 18 she is now mature enough to kill herself in the same way trump and Elon musk are mature because they are past 18. Makes sense.
I can assure you when I look at this world. Nobody is mature. The right and most mature action isn’t always apparent and people make mistakes all the time. For something like suicide I am happy that there are people who give a shit to intervene.
moralestapia
What a distasteful and ignorant comment. You do not know, at all, the circumstances surrounding GP's situation.
If you're trying to make an argument for "the person involved was not terminally ill", which you obviously don't know, you are pushing aside everybody who has had emotional and mental health issues through their lives, even you.
Depression is, by far, the leading cause behind suicide attempts. More than 90% of people who attempt to do it (or unfortunately succeed) are living with an underlying mental health condition. Choosing to ignore this is outstandingly idiotic.
kergonath
> Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person.
Having been on the other side, I prefer otherwise. I also strongly reject the idea that my father should have a say in what I do with my body.
Sorry, this is an emotional response, and I hope that it ended well for you and your loved ones. For me it did not.
aipatselarom
Your point of view is important, I wouldn't want it to be misinterpreted or any of that sort.
What you're saying is:
1. You tried to end your life.
2. Because of the intervention of other people, most likely your family, that didn't happen.
3. You wish that didn't happen and instead would prefer to be dead.
Right?
iambateman
Ben, I'm really sad to hear that happened to you and your daughter. Thanks for adding your perspective.
pseudalopex
> Having been through my daughter's suicide attempt, I far prefer the option that ends with a live person.
You have my sympathy. But mentioning your preference and not your daughter's makes me wonder if they are the same.
russdill
"The 23-year-old woman who wants to end her life is paraplegic due to injuries suffered when she tried to take her own life in 2022."
ninetyninenine
If her suicide was successfully stopped this wouldn’t have happened.
Now she’s trying to suicide again.
btilly
The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, that can happen. That's not what happens most of the time.
grayhatter
well as long you're the one who gets what they want...
I wonder, did you consider that when physicians are involved, they don't provide assistance for treatable depression? Or did you assume that physicians would help someone suffering from ephemeral depression commit suicide?
btilly
Our treatments for depression basically don't work. But that is another story.
dylan604
> The vast majority of suicide attempts end with a live person who has no long-term effects.
Wow, where did you come up with this? It's even in TFA refuting this, but even outside of that, the comment is utter horse shit. Maybe some types of attempts have no visible physical effects, but there are plenty of people with visible scars from their attempts. I would also be willing to guess that 100% have mental long-term effects from any attempt.
btilly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt quotes the figure that only one out of a dozen suicide attempts succeeds.
The most common method is pills. The most common outcome is complete physical recovery. That was the case with my daughter.
The mental effects are real, but hard to differentiate from the effects of the mental state that drove the suicide attempt.
Note, the success rate varies. Older people succeed at a higher rate. And so do men.
nsxwolf
So we should make sure that they're dead, so that they don't have any scars or long term effects?
morkalork
One of the most Shakespearean tragedies I've heard in real life is the story of someone who tried hanging themselves before MAID became available. They were found and rescued but suffered brain damage. Now they're trapped in a long term care home and wheelchair bound. They'll still tell you they want to die but because of the brain damage they've been declared inapt and thus cannot consent to to MAID.
FireBeyond
We had some training (I'm a paramedic) about our death with dignity legislation:
What to do if someone else has taken the drug cocktail (messy but if found soon enough we can usually take care of them)...
.. what if someone has taken it and "changed their mind" or "it hasn't worked".
In the former, we typically get the professionals who were involved there - is it a case of being (understandably) scared about what will happen, versus ... ?
The other is that in some people the cocktail can take an extended time to work - 24, 48 hours. Forgive the black humor, but what does that 911 call look like? "I'm not dead and I'm meant to be, I took my cocktail of death-with-dignity meds and I'm still here."
moralestapia
Very wrong, if an issue is decided to be unethical, no party should take part in facilitating it.
You're also using a loaded argument.
>you absolutely should allow medical personnel to volunteer to assist
... implies you're already "for it".
Some people are against euthanasia, that does not make them wrong, even if you disagree with them. Act like an adult.
ThrowawayP
"My body, my choice" applies to more than one issue related to bodily autonomy. Others get no say in what an individual may do with their own bodies.
moralestapia
Yah, good one.
Unfortunately, that is not some kind of universally agreed ethical principle, so I am not sure what value it brings to this conversation.
nsxwolf
Unless you think consequentialism is immoral. If you believe that it is never acceptable to participate in suicide in any way, you absolutely should not want this.
grayhatter
> If you believe that it is never acceptable to participate in suicide in any way, you absolutely should not want this.
This is interesting, if you have a reason to believe this that's not some flavor of "my religion told me to", I'd love to hear your justification for why it's never acceptable?
Flimm
All moral reasoning can be boiled down to "my religion told me to", assuming a comprehensive enough definition of religion. For example, an atheist humanist may argue that certain actions are immoral because they are harmful to human beings. The implicit religion behind that reasoning is that harm (and certain types of harm) is immoral. That's a religious statement, one that cannot be proved with the scientific method. It's a statement of moral axioms, and not all people share the exact same moral axioms.
moralestapia
>that's not some flavor of "my religion told me to"
You're not arguing in good faith, because that is a perfectly valid reason.
If you live in the US or any other developed country, that is even protected by the constitution.
rdtsc
> you absolutely should allow medical personnel to volunteer to assist
Up until they start getting paid for it, and then you'll find out they'll start recommending their services and convincing you or your loved ones to take them up on their offer.
zigzag312
I worry that because of things like [0] we we will start seeing guilt tripping old people into ending it sooner in order to not be a burden and to help their family.
Also, if you think that being a full blown adult guarantees being able to make smart decisions, just look for who adults are voting for in many countries around the world.
KittenInABox
This grosses me out a little, especially because the daughter is well into adulthood. Would this extend to being able to control if the daughter wants to do other things, like get medical procedures (fertility treatments? surgery to remove uterus etc)?
Editing to add: I think there's confusion in that I'm claiming fertility treatment is the same as suicide. I'm saying the logic the father is using makes no distinction that suicide is somehow special in this regard: his only justification is that she "has a personality disorder" and therefore shouldn't be allowed to make her own decisions with the medical authorities, because the father is deciding it is harmful to her. This can very easily be applied to any medical decision a woman may make.
clcaev
It is challenging in the US for a woman in their 20s or 30s to have their tubes tied.
MisterTea
> This can very easily be applied to any medical decision a woman may make.
Would you be as concerned if the subjects were a mother and daughter or father and son? Your focus seems to be on the "man controlling woman" aspect instead of "father desperately trying to save his daughter."
KittenInABox
I think it's wrong to control any adult's medical decisions who has been found of sound mind. If you want to argue she is not of sound mind, demand a review of the medical board, but if they confirm she is 100% doing this rationally then it is not "saving" her, it is indeed merely a man exerting control over an adult woman.
[I do not consider fatherhood special in this regard-- the notion of men being entitled to a woman's medical decisions because of a familial relationship is something that should be questioned and challenged.]
MisterTea
Are you seriously comparing non-life threatening medical procedures to assisted suicide? How are you that far off into the weeds?
KittenInABox
I'm saying there's no real difference in being able to uniformly say a father should be able to control her daughter's body in medical decisions if it is doctor-approved suicide or doctor-approved uterus removal, if the father gets to just say "well she has a personality disorder, the government is responsible in protecting her by preventing her from medically-approved treatments".
ninetyninenine
I don’t think you’re empathetic enough to see the situation from the father’s perspective. You’re just seeing from your perspective where your father is controlling you.
Do you have kids or a boyfriend or a husband? Someone you love the most. Imagine them taking a gun and putting a bullet into their own brain. That’s equivalent to what the father is trying to stop from his perspective.
What is happening here is on a whole different scale then fertility treatments.
There are many people who have tried suicide and were saved and have regretted their earlier decision to kill themselves. There is no turning back from self slaughter. And there is always potential to change their mind. Additionally the fathers claim that the suicidal tendency is from a personality disorder is not out of this world. The situation can be reversed where the disorder is dealt with and the suicidal tendencies end.
marssaxman
One can understand where the father is coming from without wanting to give him power over his daughter's choices. It is appropriate to give him compassion and support, not legal domination over another adult, who has her own life to live - or not! - as she sees fit.
prmoustache
> There are many people who have tried suicide and were saved and have regretted their earlier decision to kill themselves.
One could argue that had they been dead they wouldn't even feel regrets.
> The situation can be reversed where the disorder is dealt with and the suicidal tendencies end.
Although the suicidal tendencies could end is there a single psy disorder that people can really recover from? I understand people get treated but it is mostly about alleviating the symptoms and consequences more than healing, which often is realized through the use of some powerful meds that really make that person disappear and be more a shadow of themselves. I never heard about someone being cured from bipolar disorder or schizophrenia for example.
In Canada we call this MAID - medical assistance in dying.
If you're undecided about this - ask a doctor or nurse about how they want to go. After watching my mom die of cancer, I'm glad that we have the option to go out on our own terms now.