Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard

For folks looking for something similar that you can buy https://hellonuio.com/

Me too. Low-profile is nicer to joints in the long run, and also makes me type faster due to low-travel switches. Bonus points if it has a little bit of negative tilt.

In this regard, I found Microsoft Sculpt really good because it ticked all ergonomic boxes but it didn't require relearning. However, quality was a bit subpar, it didn't offer a wired option, and it has been discontinued. The entire lineup was actually sold to Incase, who are releasing it again soon.

I really just want a wireless 60v2. Been debating trying to make a new PCB that uses a nice!nano.

I’m sure the devils in the details.

Yes. Agreed.

I want a trackpads integrated into the keys. Under the J key a trackpad with low sensitifity, and under the K key a trackpad with high sensitivity.

Definitely looking into adding trackpad/trackpoint/touchpad(?) into the V2. And finding a way to do so without sacrificing the minimalist look and feel too much.

So happy to read this because I don't see it mentioned often enough.

I have a ErgoDox EZ, and I still prefer using my Framework 13 (with Kanata![0]) because having my thumbs navigate the trackpad is so convenient even with a keyboard-driven setup.

[0] https://github.com/jtroo/kanata

I put a trackball (Kensington Expert Mouse) in between the keyboard halves. With tenting it can nestle in quite close.

I know what you mean, but there's also a big difference between key height and keyboard height.

There's also a common misconception that it's ergonomic to angle a keyboard "upward" (elevating the back of the keyboard), when correct ergonomics is actually to angle the keyboard downwards (elevate the front).

See if you have a long object a little shorter than your foam cushion that you can scotch tape to the bottom of the front of a low-profile Apple keyboard, so that you still use the foam cushion but the front of the keyboard is at the same level as the cushion, and then angles downwards.

And then you get the advantages of the short key travel, which just means your fingers move less and so there's less force/strain.

You may find it shockingly comfortable!

I've tried numerous keyboards and the conclusion I've come to is that there's low profile and then there's low profile. The bulk of the low profiles I've tried (NuPhy, Keychron K8, the mechanical Logitech, a few others) are definitely low profile compared to the Logitech Pro X TKL I use for my gaming PC. However, they're still tall. Most of the gains are from a shorter switch and keycap, but the body is still quite high.

If you compare it to the Apple Magic Keyboard I'm typing on now – and that seems like a definite inspiration for the Bayleaf – it's a stark contrast. The K3, for example, is more than twice as tall (10.9mm vs 22mm backrow). The Magic Keyboard feels fine to type on without any sort of wrist support and I never feel any strain. But on the K3, even with a support (tried both their wooden support and a similarly sized foam one), I would feel strain after an hour or two.

Most low-profiles are really just a middle ground between the two sides. And, at least in my experience, you get the downsides of both without any of the positives of either.

As a low-profile keyboard zealot, I'm trying to imagine why you'd need a foam pad under your palm. But maybe I'm odd. My entire forearm rests on my desk and supports my arm weight so nothing is pushing down on my hands. Then my hands flow directly over the LP keyboard without any appreciable bend in my wrist.

My take is that finger muscle are really different from person to person, to a degree that can be surprising.

I might be at the other extreme end, but even typing on glass doesn't bother me much, and laptop keyboards are a good compromise to have just enough travel and not too much.

I tried a nuphy low profile and it was tiring after a while. The thinkpad standalone trackpoint keyboard has been my go to for a while, and tgis keyboard also looks great to me.

Another opinion:

I want this keyboard to put on a bookshelf and never use, haha. It is really nice looking. It sounds like it was an incredible learning experience and making something so polished and professional looking is a real accomplishment. But low profile, no pads, ortho layout, and no tenting… my eyes ache for the beauty of the thing but my hands just ache.

But anyway, ergonomics are personal so I can’t really judge.

I like low-profile in theory, but in practices there's so many high quality mx profile switches, and everything in low-profile land seems a bit substandard. I can't go back to unlubed linears, or scratchy brown clones.

I agree. It looks like with this it would be near impossible to press the lower left/right keys with my palm, which is something that helps take the load off my pinkies. It does look like a fun project though.

It really depends on personal preferences. I find it best to hover the wrists while typing and rest while idle. In such case no palm rest paired with reasonably low profile works best.

> I dived into the custom keyboard rabbit hole just 3 weeks ago

Take your time, the GAS is real and expensive !

All jokes aside, ordering small batches of PCBs is unfortunately very expensive, especially if you have a larger size.

If you ever feel the itch of going towards ergonomic split keyboards, you'll find plenty of ~40% splits that use reversible PCBs for both halves which allows for cheap batches. Typically you get 5 PCBs with JLC and that gives you enough to build one full keyboard for work and one for home.

Yeah this is awesome.

For keyboards really similar to OP's

The keyboard they were inspired by (not for sale... yet?): https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/...

Corneish (out of stock): https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen?variant=376943319... Unicorne: https://new.boardsource.xyz/products/unicorne-LP

The corneish is an absolute gem in my opinion. It is possibly (probably?) open-sourced too.

less specifically like OP's, but a really great product that I and a bunch of my coworkers use: the 'Ultimate Hacking Keyboard' 60 (typically referred to as a UHK). I have mine with the palmrest and the recent riser accessory, so I use it split and tented for less wrist/forearm tension.

I have the voyager and I'm really very happy with it. No wrist pain when I'm typing a lot.

https://imgur.com/pklEZSh

Ambients Silent Choc Switches (20g Linear), keycaps from worklouder (Pure)

Also, should you prioritize ergonomics over function or form, the Kinesis Advantage 360 Professional

I have the ZSA Moonlander and absolutely love it! Definitely recommend it!

> My ideal keyboard would be taking a Magic keyboard (in black or space gray) and splitting it into two.

Me, too. I feel there's a lot of us who want precisely this. I want every key that's on the Magic Keyboard. I already have a number of other Karabiner bindings, like the Hyper key, so I'm adding "layers" that way.

> Where's the arrow keys block? Insert/delete/home/end/pgup/pgdown block?

In the nav layer. One popular layout of split keyboards is two 3x5 grids of keys with 3 thumb buttons. With this configuration, it is common to map modifier keys to the home row keys, activated when they are held down. Likewise, for numbers, symbols, navigation, a thumb key is held down to activate that layer. Your fingers never have to stretch more than one key-length away.

Miryoku is a popular implmentation of this. It looks crazy, but you can get used to it really quickly, or alter it to your own taste.

https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku

Ortholinear is a standard but non-orthodox layout for keyboards. And when you see 60%, it means you are getting only the main alphanumeric section with esc often smushed into what would otherwise be the ~/` key.

With 60% keyboards, you are often using modifier layers baked into the keyboards' firmware to get back your function keys and your control block like page up

I actually don't think I'll be going back to a staggered keyboard. Ortholinear layouts make setting up layers a lot easier, which gives you the ability to set up momentary arrow key or cursor movement blocks.

ZMK supports N-key rollover and layers.

The trade off you make with these keyboards is that you have to learn a different muscle memory, in return for less finger contortions, more comfort, and less hand waving around the keyboard.

If that's not appealing to you, there's probably no reason to get into it. If it is appealing to you to live mostly on your homerow, then the learning curve is not all that great, maybe a couple of months.

I mean, if you're going to design and build a keyboard only for yourself all from scratch, why would you expect a standard layout? The whole thing is bespoke to you.

Thank you, My first few attempts were with a SMD stencil and a 50x50mm hotplate, it's true that maybe a larger hotplate that could span the whole PCB might have done a better job. But with the smaller plate it was "easier" to just manually apply solder paste and do 4 switches at a time.

I think this method is also highly specific to these switches. They are known for being difficult to solder with hobby-tier equipment.

I just reflowed a board in a cheap cast iron pan filled with some sand on my induction stove. Worked fine!

This video features the exact same technique and hot plate that was used here.

> reflow soldering

one of the most satisfying things to watch

I think other commenters are overstating the change from staggered to columnar. I type just fine (100 WPM+) going between my Moonlander (split keyboard from ZSA) and my Lenovo/Macbook (typical staggered layouts).

In hindsight, the biggest issue I ran into switching keyboards was that I was too ambitious playing around with the key configuration. The configurability is a big draw but I took for granted that I had already built up years of natural tendency for certain things - which thumb I use for space, preferences for Ctrl/Alt/Command/Option, for Shift, etc.

The default for these keyboards probably don't 100% align with what you're used to, so you should directly map what you're doing currently over to the keymap of the keyboard and then you can fiddle with making it yours over time.

I will say that if you're not already a touch typer, then a split keyboard is not going to help and it will be more difficult to get used to.

edit: also, if anything, going columnar helped me actually consistently hit number keys!

I went from only using my MacBook's builtin keyboard to using a Lily58 split keyboard and it took probably about 2 weeks to fully adjust. I started out at around 100-110 wpm on the standard keyboard. On the first day of the split I was doing about 20-30 wpm, after a week I was up to 60 wpm, and then 80wpm after 2 weeks. Kept improving more slowly after that. I did switch cold turkey, i.e. using it 100% of the time including at work.

Now I'm about a year and a half later and am up to 140wpm. I think the biggest problem for me on the standard keyboard is the bottom row index fingers and pinkies, the "natural" motion of my fingers lands right in between the two keys on those fingers so I used to make a lot of mistakes there, especially when typing fast.

I was taught to touch-type on a standard QWERTY keyboard at a very young age. I picked up an Ergodox EZ after nearly 20 years of that. It unfortunately took me at least a couple years before I was 100% again - probably 6 months to a year to get "used" to it and not mistype keys regularly.

They're worth it though!

Took a few weeks to get used to, but I love it now (Planck), and I'm just as fast, if not a bit faster, than on my laptop keyboard. It's also much easier for me to use my right small finger to hit P than it is on a "normal" keyboard.

tl;dr: don't be afraid of trying it.

In my case, going from a regular keyboard to a split one like he Raise[1] took me 10 minutes of adaption time. My second split one was (is) a columnar (the Defy[2]), and I must confess that the adaption time was something like three days. Mostly because I kept failing to correctly push a few keys (like the C). Now I can indistinctly work with a columnar or a stagged one with zero problem. In fact, I usually use both types many days.

That said, I thought that the change would make me feel more comfortable, but to be honest in my case the difference is not big at all.

[1] https://dygma.com/pages/dygma-raise-2

[2] https://dygma.com/pages/defy

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