Federal workers ordered to return to offices without desks, Wi-Fi and lights
288 comments
·March 4, 2025sjsdaiuasgdia
selykg
Absolutely insane that this is what we've come to. It is mind blowing to me that this is what people want. We are regressing this country so rapidly that we are likely to become one of those shithole countries the president so loudly proclaimed Haiti, El Salvador and others were.
philistine
The is exactly a move the people in power in those troubled countries will use to maintain control over government.
It used to be that the US government had pride in its own professionalism. The US is now acting like the countries it loves to destabilize.
hnthrow90348765
Well, Russia is destabilizing the US and winning which is why I think we're acting like that. And it seems all of our military and counterintelligence capabilities can't stop it. Too much offense, not enough defense, it seems.
_heimdall
> It used to be that the US government had pride in its own professionalism
It used to be that voters actually cared about professionalism, principles, and critical thinking.
Campaigning on really any of those doesn't work these days, its not surprising that our government has those same shortcomings.
palata
> The US is now acting like the countries it loves to destabilize.
Ironically, it's destabilising itself on its own.
egypturnash
"Krasnov" is doing exactly what the Russians hired him to do.
lettergram
[flagged]
Larrikin
Getting into government to make it worse to show that government is bad has been a pillar of the Republican party since Reagan. They just used to pretend about it.
pyrale
> It is mind blowing to me that this is what people want.
I very much doubt this is what people want. But people aren't asked their opinion, and there's a difference between disagreeing and starting an insurrection to prevent a coup.
lokar
A lot of Americans have been getting screwed for 30 years and have little invested in the stability of the system.
alistairSH
It's been a core tenet of Republican ideology for as long as I've been politically aware (30+ years now). People voting for Republicans are absolutely aware of this - they either explicitly want it, or are willing to accept as a cost of some other policy. Maybe 2026 mid-terms will prove me wrong, but if there isn't a wholesale turn away from the Trump-led GOP, it's safe to assume they're explicitly ok with this stuff.
Aurornis
> It is mind blowing to me that this is what people want.
It is not what people want. The Trump administration’s popularity is already below 50%, and much lower among independents (around 30% depending on the poll).
Many people aren’t yet aware of what’s happening. A lot of the electorate is getting their news from filtered sources like Fox News or various far right media outlets. Joe Rogan has gone all in on praising Musk and Trump. People who get their information from Trump are being fed lies that are obvious to anyone not inside the bubble. They don’t know what’s happening because their heroes are telling them it’s all necessary and good.
When you start polling people on the actual actions taken, things being cancelled, and consequences the approval is very low.
Anecdotally, I have some extended family who were very pro-Trump. One of them recently discovered that her job was funded through a federal grant, and now it’s likely going to be cut even though she doesn’t work for the government directly. They also discovered that one of their family members is covered by Medicaid through an avenue that’s looking like it will be cut. They went through a stage of disbelief, but now they’re in a phase where they’re sure everything will be fine and Trump will get it fixed. It’s only a matter of time until they realize that they were the intended targets of the cuts, not accidental damage.
silverquiet
> It’s only a matter of time until they realize that they were the intended targets of the cuts, not accidental damage.
I suspect that other scapegoats can be found to blame for their problems; as you say, their news sources will offer them all sorts of filters to deflect blame from the obvious source.
the_gipsy
> It’s only a matter of time until they realize
It will be far too late. That's why they're going so fast. The damage comes with a huge latency. Perhaps America can be saved and this is nothing but a bump in the ride, I'm no Nostradamus, but this could very well be the end of the Free West.
alabastervlog
Tons of voters reverse many of their positions if you explain the issues to them without using the labels they’re used to.
I’m not sure “they could have known, but didn’t bother to learn, and instead voted based on Fox News and talk radio and podcast and Facebook post bullshit” is enough to say they didn’t vote for this. If it is, that’s… kinda usually the case.
dartos
It may not be what people want now, but it is what people voted for.
People voted for tariff and massive day 1 changes and federal cuts.
People wanted a loud strong man president who makes deals.
These actions ARE what people (who voted) wanted… people just didn’t think about the outcome
selykg
> Anecdotally, I have some extended family who were very pro-Trump. One of them recently discovered that her job was funded through a federal grant, and now it’s likely going to be cut even though she doesn’t work for the government directly. They also discovered that one of their family members is covered by Medicaid through an avenue that’s looking like it will be cut. They went through a stage of disbelief, but now they’re in a phase where they’re sure everything will be fine and Trump will get it fixed. It’s only a matter of time until they realize that they were the intended targets of the cuts, not accidental damage.
I keep hearing stuff like this, but it doesn't seem to be widespread enough to seem to matter, at least in my circle. There's this whole topic of conversation where there's this voter regret thing. I'm in Michigan, so there's been a few of these I've seen proclaiming the Muslim community are having regrets voting for Trump (it was a big thing around the election due to the whole Gaza situation, because voting for Harris was apparently not going to be enough). But I am worried I'm just seeing bullshit propaganda and these types of things aren't actually what's happening because everyone I've talked to seem to be content with the way things are going. It's incredibly weird.
pyrale
> It’s only a matter of time until they realize that they were the intended targets of the cuts, not accidental damage.
"If only the Tsar knew"
gryfft
> They went through a stage of disbelief, but now they’re in a phase where they’re sure everything will be fine and Trump will get it fixed.
Ah, straight from denial into that other stage, more denial
devinprater
Yes, this is how blind people who voted for Trump are. Surely they can't get rid of the ADA...
null
alsoforgotmypwd
America is a third-world country because people stopped caring, stopped reading, and fell for a cult.
dataangel
This what a huge chunk of HN wanted! HN was all aboard the Trump train for years and the mods admonished anyone being too critical of other users for it, it's when I wrote off most of the people here as morons.
matthewaveryusa
That's a bit harsh. Maybe a bunch of political juniors thinking the system needed a rewrite by a bunch of folks foreign to the system. Don't write it off, it could work. Probably not though
pastor_williams
[citation needed]
null
droopyEyelids
I’ll never forget the Great HN Vote where everyone decided to get on board the Trump Train
everdrive
I'm starting to think the "government is inefficient" folks have never actually worked in any corporate job. I've worked in two companies since I left the federal government 5-10 years ago, and both were significantly less efficient, and less effective than the federal agency I worked for. I'm sure that's not _always_ true, but it just seems like any large organization full of people is difficult to keep efficient.
stvltvs
Same experience. The "government = inefficient" propaganda has been repeated ad infinitum for decades so that now it feels like a law of nature to people. My experience is however that every large org is inefficient in its own unique way, no matter which sector.
onlyrealcuzzo
It's parroted by people who see the government as "inefficient" at generating profit, not as inefficient at providing a service.
Why should plebs be entitled to clean water without an 80% margin?
everyone
That's my experience too.. When the public sector wastes something its an error. For a corp, its business as usual. As long as number-goes-up it doesnt matter to them what they are doing.
clord
I was under the impression these offices closed during the pandemic and the return to office order is bringing people back into those places. If that’s the case I don’t think this is some sort of planned disruption but rather poor planning. Incompetence vs malice right?
adapt_and_laugh
And if more federal employees quit because of the poor conditions, it’s just more people they don’t have to worry about laying off.
arkh
The problem is the people who quit because they cannot work are not those you want to lay off. Those who stay in those conditions? That's those who were not adding anything useful before.
V__
And it is flooding the market with job seekers, increasing competition thus depressing wages.
lukan
Win win (for certain companies)
Etheryte
The Twitter playbook, except for the government.
drivingmenuts
At this point, anyone remaining at Xitter has to be aware that they are working for a neo-Nazi. And anyone using Xitter in a country that has a history of fighting Nazi's in WWII has to be aware of who they're supporting. It's maddening how many people just don't seem to give a shit.
_aavaa_
It is the whole point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBH9TmeJN_M
bloomingkales
I think people didn’t want to believe it when they blamed DEI for the helicopter crash.
The algebra looks like this:
Privatize FAA = x + y
Where x is any discovery or event related to the FAA, and where y is any red meat justification (dei|immigration|trans).
There are many such equations:
Strategic bitcoin reserve = x + y.
Long two years, just going to leave this here. They will always find x and y to complete their equations:
SecretDreams
> Long two years
Probably a lot longer than two at this rate :/.
rob74
Since you mention the FAA, I wonder what will happen if the NTSB's report on the Washington disaster doesn't match Trump's preconceived conclusions, e.g. by placing most of the blame on the (female) helicopter pilot. If he interferes there, that will be the final straw convincing me that the US is unfortunately no better than the "banana republics" it used to make fun of anymore...
wat10000
I doubt he'll care at that point. It’s already been (subjective) years since that crash.
myvoiceismypass
I mean he changed the path of a hurricane via sharpie in the first term. He is incapable of admitting being wrong ever.
exe34
> If he interferes there,
How will you know at this point? Would he need a sharpie this time, or will he just shout at them over the phone and change the conclusions?
mschoch
[dead]
Cthulhu_
But they should've shown their assertions and proof thereof beforehand. It's been pointed out that they say organizations are wasteful, but those are vague weasel words; show some numbers, do a root cause analysis and fix what is broken.
But the goal is not to fix what isn't working, it never was - it's a diversion and an excuse to dismantle the federal government, checks and balances, and move to an unchecked oligarchy/autocracy. Taking the whole country with them, of course.
deadbabe
I have to ask with all this disruption, what if we were hit with a massive 9/11 scale attack right now?
_heimdall
Unfortunately war does tend to have a way of rallying both sides together. Tribalism tends to just need an "other" group to demonize.
A 9/11 scale attack would make it pretty easy for supporters of both parties to turn their sights on whoever they think attacked us.
Aurornis
> “The only thing a return to the office has given me is an hour of traffic while driving and a loss in efficiency,” said the worker, who requested anonymity for fear of job reprisals.
RTO in a nutshell.
As someone who chose my living location based on where my family wants to live first and jobs second, this sudden turn to RTO mandates is infinitely depressing. Most of my work involves talking to people in different offices, states and countries anyway, so RTO means doing the e-mail and video call work but from a different location that requires battling traffic both ways. It’s insane that this is being done in the name of “efficiency”
rinze
> RTO in a nutshell.
I saw this a while ago on Mastodon and it's on point (https://toot.yosh.is/@yosh/114027906524929311):
---
In today’s “terminology matters”:
Return To Office policy: middle-management language that assumes “office” is a neutral position, we’re somehow “returning to”. This term has been carefully crafted by corporate strategists to sound as palatable as possible.
Mandatory Commute policy: centers the outcome for workers - spending hours each day on an unpaid commute to and from the office just so we can be on video calls all day.
We don’t just have to accept hostile framing.
---
gedy
> spending hours each day on an unpaid commute to and from the office
Reminds me of a NYC startup I was at (while hired living on the west coast). CEO was really big on in-person (well except for all the LATAM devs I had to manage...) so they required me to fly out frequently, and my boss was incredulous I would book the 6 hour flight during week days because it "ate into work time". Like WTF is sitting on JetBlue flights on weekends for me but "work time"... I'm on salary anyways
jofla_net
Don't want to be the cynical guy, but having talked to just such a ceo who gets-off by being hired to fire people. RTO is literally a badge, or at least an excuse to exercise authority. Often yes, to get rid of free loaders, but more specifically to shove it in the face of a lot of engineers that they are subservient. This guy actually would put it that they saw a gig as, and I'm recalling, a place to 'eat shit', until he moved on. Quite a different perspective than what I'd think most devs here would see their field as, something they love. There's also alot of pent-up indignation about how executives see engineering in general. They. Don't. Understand. It. and so they marginalize it. Its not at all surprising behavior , that of executives, from what you'd expect to come from a group more likely that most to be represented by those doing nothing more than winning a personality contest.
ryandrake
I think a lot of executives see engineers as uppity, well-paid factory workers, and absolutely hate that the gap between their own pay and engineering's pay is so small. In order to maintain their world view that they are better, higher-class people, they need to be making 10X-100X what their median worker makes and they need their median worker to be afraid for their jobs and subservient to them. Current software engineering comp. (and until recently, the ease of engineers to job hop) contradicts this world view. The last thing they want is to be seen as [ugh] PEERS to regular workers. That won't do at all. Workers need to be taken down a notch and shown their place on the totem pole.
incangold
Same situation. Going to the office and opening a Zoom call with colleagues in India and a city hundreds of miles away. Madness.
danaris
It's insane that anyone actually believes that it's being done for efficiency.
It's not, and never was.
It's being done a) to drive people to quit, so they don't have to lay them off, and b) to restore the power dynamic to the status quo ante, where your manager could just look over at your cubicle and see you in your seat, and know that whether or not you were working, you were still there to bow to them. (And many of them genuinely have zero metric for gauging "how much is Aurornis working?" besides measuring the amount of time a butt is in a seat, and are desperate to avoid having to admit that.)
SSLy
At my former job the (then) CEO said outright that forced WFH mandated in 2020 actually brought some minuscule improvement in general process efficiency.
Ajedi32
> many of them genuinely have zero metric for gauging "how much is Aurornis working?" besides measuring the amount of time a butt is in a seat
This is a legitimate problem though. Obviously making people do all their work from a centralized office location is a horribly inefficient solution, but it is a solution, and if there really is widespread slacking happening it might still be more efficient than doing nothing.
danaris
But it's not a solution, that's the problem.
I am currently at my desk, in my office. Am I working?
For roughly two years during the pandemic, I was at home using my laptop. Was I working?
Furthermore, for most office work, there is more to working than a binary "are you doing it or not?" Being at your desk working says nothing about the quality of your work, which any competent manager should absolutely be capable of assessing from the work itself.
Finally, you're making a huge assumption:
> if there really is widespread slacking happening
Is there any evidence that this is happening? I guarantee you that the kind of manager who does this will not know, because they have no effective metrics.
It's also precisely the kind of thing that toxic management culture says workers are always doing (or trying to do): It perpetuates the idea that Managers, who are perfect, pure beings with only the Might Company's best interests at heart, are always at odds with Workers, who are lazy good-for-nothings only ever interested in getting the most money possible for the least amount of work possible, and who must always be treated as if they are trying to steal their time from the Mighty Company.
insane_dreamer
Also to make sure you were getting those TPS reports in.
drcongo
Harder to sell Teslas to people who work from home.
mystifyingpoi
> (...) returned to ethernet cords in piles around the floor, random wires sticking out of walls, and motion-sensor lights that weren’t working correctly
I don't understand that part, maybe I'm missing something - what happened there? Why would the abandoned workplace not look exactly the same as they left it? Where did the ethernet cords appear from? Someone stole TVs from the walls?
hedora
The federal government is generally pretty efficient. They probably sold off surplus equipment. They definitely have been consolidating office space. It could be that the remaining leases were cheaper to keep than buy out, or that selling the buildings didn’t make sense.
Regardless, there’s no reason for them to hire facilities people to maintain vacant space. Leaving furniture in those places would attract vermin, ruin the furniture, etc.
inetknght
> I don't understand that part, maybe I'm missing something - what happened there?
It's hard to think, I know. But don't worry, I'll give you some ideas.
> Why would the abandoned workplace not look exactly the same as they left it?
There might have been some animals who came along and decided that the TVs were very important. Maybe there was a hurricane or a tornado which decided to fuck this place in particular, but only by taking the desks and TVs.
Or, maybe the workers who used the office weren't the last people in the office.
> Where did the ethernet cords appear from?
They were always there. Some people actually know how to have a reliable, secure, and fast data connection. Protip: it's not wifi. Usually when the TV or computer is installed, all of the extra wire is hidden in the wall. But after the TV or computer has been removed, the extra wire length is often left on the ground ready to be tested or installed with the next device.
It's just very annoying (read: time-expensive for little profit) to pull the wires all the way out of the walls to be taken, and even more expensive to re/install in a new location (it's significantly cheaper to just install new wiring instead).
> Someone stole TVs from the walls?
It's possible, but not likely. Those TVs were most likely g(r)ifted to the managers and/or executives. You know, the same people who actually own the building. That's not the same as stolen. Also, the missing TV can now be written off of taxes as a loss for the business. Everyone likes double-dipping, right?
mexicocitinluez
So, this thing called Covid hit. It was a pandemic, and because it was infectious, a large push to work remotely was made (both in private and public businesses).
When employers realized that work was being done despite not being in the office, they started to shutter their offices (ya know, to save money).
I can't believe I have to explain to another adult why offices after Covid don't look the same.
hotsauceror
What an insulting and willfully obtuse answer, that does not address any of these perfectly reasonable questions. When you leave your house on vacation, do you rip the cords out of the outlets and pile them on the floor, and dismount all the TVs?
mexicocitinluez
[flagged]
xyst
Some people just live under a rock; or they have never been impacted by god awful management decisions.
Sometimes I wonder what that life looks like? Maybe just sipping champagne at beach side (or on the couch) all day in ignorance. Watch whatever reality trash is on streaming services. All while the world burns around them.
JumpCrisscross
Wild that oil & gas subsidies, Medicare negotiating more drugs and foreign military base reductions are off the table. But god forbid we see another hurricane coming.
mexicocitinluez
> Medicare negotiating more drugs
I don't care what side you fall down on, the only reason someone would rollback Medicare negotiating drug prices is so that they can make more money on their big pharma stocks.
I can't believe a bunch of grown adults voted for this shit.
russdill
Most of the people I talk to seem to have one thing they are holding on to as the thing they'll get out of their vote. Like "he's going to eliminate the income taxes I pay on my social security" etc
The thing is almost never true, and even if he were is a horrible self centered justification.
thrance
He already passed tax cuts, but only for the wealthy. Literally reversed Robinhood.
tallanvor
Because Trump is a kleptocrat. He's not in it to make government better, he's in it to steal as much as he can for himself and his friends.
pjmorris
"Bad government is the natural product of rule by those who believe government is bad." - Thomas Frank
pyronik19
We have like 100 years of bad government by people who love government to dispel this nonsense.
pjmorris
Maybe if we'd stuck it out with Hoover... "given a chance to go forward with the policies of the last eight years, and we shall soon with the help of God be in sight of the day when poverty will be banished from this Nation." (campaign trail, 1928) He only got four of those years.
pjmorris
If only we had bad markets instead, like the good old days.
What metrics would you use to assess the quality of life you think best?
hedora
Yeah, we’d be much much better off if the Great Depression was still happening, and Hitler got to slaughter our ancestors. I’m guessing the congress critters are pretty nostalgic for stuff like polio, tuberculosis, measles and the bubonic plague.
Also, screw breathable air and drinkable water, even more than the internet and microwave. Above all else, ballpoint pens and velcro need to just stop.
Excuse me. It’s rush hour. I need to go yell at a busy bridge until the thing just falls the fuck over.
pjmorris
What have the Romans ever done for us?
What have the New Dealer's ever done for us?
soupfordummies
There's not even enough parking at a lot of offices. Despite an up to 50 mile commute, some are being told "well, you could take the bus. Or uber. Or walk."
The whole point of it is to be miserable. The decision makers literally said that!
Meanwhile traffic around the city has gotten WAY worse too. So it's not just the feds that are affected either.
criddell
It seems like some of the people who don't think our government is functional are determined to make it so.
stetrain
> It seems like some of the people who don't think our government is functional are determined to make it so.
This has been the playbook for all of my life at least. Probably longer than that.
xyst
The result of 40+ years of pseudoscience from neoclassical and neoliberal economists.
America is cooked.
seanmcdirmid
Bug closed - WAI. Sorry I’m just becoming way too cynical.
postepowanieadm
But why did the government keep offices that couldn't be used?
Havoc
This must be the promised efficiency
SpaceL10n
It's part of the promised pain. Trump promised us some pain. He said it was necessary before things can get better.
bloomingeek
Finally someone remembers this quote! He told the GOP voters what was coming and they still gave him the keys to the kingdom. When Medicaid is severely limited, we'll see if they get the message. (for instance, childbirth costs and seniors in nursing homes.)
rescripting
Its much easier to destroy than to build, and this is thoughtless destruction. How can anyone expect thoughtful reconstruction?
metalliqaz
there is no intention of reconstruction. destroy government to ensure nothing stands in the way of the oligarchy. they want to create the world's first trillionaire at our expense
hobs
Sounds like what an abuser would say when they want you to let them hit you more.
jl6
At least some of the issues in the headline are temporary inconveniences, some fixed within hours apparently:
> In one Department of Health and Human Services office, there was no Wi-Fi or full electricity in the first hours when people returned last week.
The broader issue is: what even is the point, if Trump has abandoned any pretence of seeking a balanced budget anyway?
atlgator
Every RTO order, public sector or private, is about creating attrition. Not efficiency, productivity, or performance. Attrition.
The disruption is (part of) the point.
Degrading the ability of government employees to do their jobs leads to greater inefficiency and more failure, which can then be pointed at to validate assertions that government isn't efficient and produces bad outcomes.