Skip to content(if available)orjump to list(if available)

Lobsters blocking UK users because of the Online Safety Act

jjcm

I definitely get the proactive response here, as I’ve considered the same for my small platform. The biggest issue is the definitions of who the majority of the requirements apply to is quite hard to find. It’s buried on page 65 of this pdf:

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/onli...

It defines “large service” as “a service that has more than 7 million monthly active United Kingdom users”. This is 25% of the UK population. If your service isn’t a household name, it mainly doesn’t apply to you, but the language they use makes it seem like this applies to more.

johneth

7 million is about 10% of the UK population, not 25%.

Red_Comet_88

They also block Brave browsers entirely. I tried reading into it, but it appears to be one of those "programmer personality quirks". The fellow that runs the site appears to think Brave is a scam of some sort, and just decided to block the entire browser.

Oh well, I'll stick to HN.

blueflow

You can scroll through the lobste.rs moderation log to get in impression of how moderation on lobste.rs works:

https://lobste.rs/moderations

Also incidents like this:

https://lobste.rs/s/zp4ofg/lobster_burntsushi_has_left_site

This kind of stuff gives me hugbox vibes, i would not feel safe there. I'm somewhat sure some of the moderators use the website as personal political leverage.

420_14_88_69

This site is just as much of a hugbox. At least they have transparent moderation. Here you just get deaded and shadowbanned and don't know why. (Well, you can guess: because you posted a right-wing opinion)

gaganyaan

What does 14 88 refer to in your username?

hagbard_c

I used to have an account on that site as well and left for the same reason: repeated messages telling me I had been flagged and I needed to reconsider when I dared to venture too far outside the desired narrative. There will be many others who have made or will make the same decision which leaves sites like this with a population which is mostly ideologically cohesive. Maybe that is a good thing for those sites and maybe the participants feel 'safe' in such an environment but it surely is lacking in stimulating curiosity and widening one's intellectual horizon.

420_14_88_69

Sounds familiar, except here there's no notification when you get flagged/deaded/shadowbanned.

null

[deleted]

bb88

Is it me, or is brave more of a cryptocurrency platform that pretends to be a browser?

A lot of people don't really like the toxic discussions that crypto usually tends to devolve in. So it makes sense to block the browser if you don't want those people on your server.

ykonstant

I am no fan of Brave, but where is the logic here? Just because someone uses Brave, they will engage in toxic discussions on crypto? Am I missing something?

bb88

The crypto world is full of toxic.

tonfreed

It's probably more of a "I don't like Brendan Eich" thing, but the maintainer can't really say that without sounding unhinged.

Then again, I actively go out of my way to be toxic on the internet, so maybe they have a point

sshine

It’s my impression that it’s mostly a browser. But I don’t use it, because who needs another WebKit clone.

secondcoming

I use Brave for YouTube and other streaming, and I've never encountered any crypto stuff. They have/had their own BAT token that dealt with paid advertising but I've not seen it mentioned in quite some time.

As far as I can tell it's just another browser that blocks a lot of internet crap.

TiredOfLife

It's you.

jsheard

Related, a list of other sites which are blocking the UK or shutting down altogether rather than deal with OSA:

https://onlinesafetyact.co.uk/in_memoriam/

dang

Related ongoing thread: In memoriam - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43152154

kmeisthax

As someone who self-hosts Mastodon, should I be geoblocking the UK as well?

For the record, I only host it for myself, so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have received any of the legal protections that the OSA is now stripping away, and thus geoblocking the UK wouldn't matter. But if there's something else I'm missing, please let me know.

ddtaylor

Block and route around failures.

sepositus

Is a decentralized approach to communication an effective bulwark against this type of legislation? As is mentioned in the linked thread, the act itself is extremely hard to parse, so maybe it's not even possible to know the answer. Just curious if anyone has done research from that angle.

zimpenfish

Neil Brown[0] has been attending the Ofcom online sessions and asking them about Fediverse servers but they've been unhelpfully vague as to how/if/why/when they fall under OSA.

[0] https://onlinesafetyact.co.uk

Symbiote

ss64

Im guessing they linked the archive so that when Lobsters is geoblocked UK users will still be able to read it.

dang

That's a good point, but the thing to do in that case is post the original URL and add an archive link in the thread. I've done that now (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43152546).

do_not_redeem

ELI5: Why should a US-based site, hosted on US soil and run by a US citizen, care about laws in all the hundreds of other random countries located thousands of miles away?

randunel

Because he can face legal consequences for breaking the (local elsewhere) law. The US do the exact same, look up FATCA.

AdrianB1

Because they can be arrested and extradited to UK. Not a high chance, but not zero. And a realistic one is to be arrested while traveling in Europe and extradited to UK.

do_not_redeem

Are there any previous cases of the UK intercepting and arresting a US citizen traveling through Europe for something that isn't a crime in the US?

sshine

There are no documented cases of the UK intercepting and arresting a US citizen traveling through Europe for an act that is not a crime in the United States.

Extradition treaties, such as the UK–US Extradition Treaty of 2003, allow for extradition requests between the two countries.

They generally require that the alleged offense be a crime in both jurisdictions ("dual criminality") which ensures that individuals are not extradited for actions that are not considered crimes in their home country.

regularjack

Would you take the risk if it were you hosting the site?

soulofmischief

The simple answer is to not recognize the authority of the UK government when you don't have a physical presence there, as long as they are failing to protect their citizens with sane, ethical digital policy.

Tough pill to swallow for some, but there is no difference between irrational demands made from the government of the UK, and say, North Korea. It's everyone's choice which side of history they'd like to be on.

sepositus

Just to play devil's advocate, the relationship between the EU and the US compared to North Korea is not at all similar. I think that's why this is listed as an option:

> A statement from the US Department of State that it does not believe the law applies to American entities and a commitment to defend them against it.

soulofmischief

The UK is not a part of the EU.

I also recognize the potential for legal action or criminal charges. Those are great opportunities to fight these tyrants in one of the few battlefields available to us.

As Martin Luther King, Jr. said:

"I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and willingly accepts the penalty by staying in jail to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the very highest respect for law."

Now, it may be that Lobsters simply doesn't have the highest respect for the law, or perhaps they value their community's survival over leading by principle and securing a bright future for posterity. Short-sighted thinking, but I understand the motivation.

My comment is a call for people to consider their priorities with respect to the world we leave behind us. Taking the easy way out and avoiding conflict with an encroaching global authoritarian movement is not going to fix anything, and contributes toward an ever-darker future.

This is not a jab at Lobster, and I am glad to see them at least trying something before simply geoblocking the UK. But what if geoblocking isn't enough? What if knowing a VPN-enabled user is from the UK but not banning them is still grounds for a lawsuit or criminal charges?[0] What if more countries join in?

[0] This leads to the ironic outcome that the UK becomes less represented in the next generation of online discourse and slides further into backwater obscurity, despite being home to such rich culture and academia.

sepositus

> The UK is not a part of the EU.

Ah, yes, my American brain made the association too easily. Regardless, it doesn't alter my point much, in that the US/UK relationship is still more friendly than North Korea. Of course, it may not stay that way.

> Now, it may be that Lobsters simply doesn't have the highest respect for the law, or perhaps they value their community's survival over leading by principle and securing a bright future for posterity. Short-sighted thinking, but I understand the motivation.

This argument seems to dismiss the fact that the original thread started with a statement that they do not have the financial stability to challenge such a law. Sure, they could go principally bankrupt, but what effect would such a small fry really have in the global geopolitical environment? I just don't think they have a stage that's anything close to the size of MLK's.

randunel

Haven't you heard of FATCA and other similar local US laws which impact institutions everywhere in the world?

soulofmischief

I have very complex and mixed feelings about US tax law in general as it stands, and I certainly do not condone the current state of US foreign diplomacy in general, nor how our economic situation after Europe was shattered by war led to increased international economic control and influence, and economic consolidation under the dollar.

jackjeff

As a person living in the UK, I really hope the rest of the world gives the middle finger to this pathetic extra territorial law by totally ignoring it.

They can ask ISPs to do the censorship if they really want to keep us “safe”.