Do you want to be doing this when you're 50? (2012)

I want to be you when I grow up :-) (And I’m not that far behind!)

I don’t ever want to stop learning and building interesting things with technology, and helping people use that technology for productive and useful outcomes.

The thing I definitely don’t want to be doing when I’m 50, or even next year, is work for a large morally corrupt organisation or a tyrannical boss who’s values are not in alignment with mine. And I guess that also means not working for a company where the work implicitly takes priority over living a balanced life (as described in the article with the 2am working to a deadline fuelled by Starbucks).

I don’t mind working until 2am on my own projects - where I have the autonomy to decide to do that - but not “under duress” for someone else, not like that anyway. And not in a team where the culture promotes that, such that I might get absorbed in that way of working and fool myself into thinking that I have chosen to live and work that way (a mistake I’ve made in the past).

I think self-employment therefore is the way for me. I’m there now, not making as much as my previous employment, but not compromising my values as much either - and right now at least the latter feels more important than the former. I just get to build cool things with people I choose to work with. I think that’s sustainable.

I'm 63, retired in 2017 when I was 55. I now work on projects that interest me in languages that interest me. As a senior senior I'm excited by AI in my editor, it's automating the boring parts and I mainly just get to think of solutions.

I'm loving it, I get to do the fun parts of my old job without the bad or boring parts. The main thing I miss? Office building cafeteria food, oddly enough. I don't even know if that's still a thing post-pandemic.

As for mega corps, I've worked in a couple, and although I've never served I compare it to doing the work and making the sacrifices for your platoon, not the whole army. You get to know your immediate team and are in the trenches with them.

Loved this comment. I'm 46 and dislike my job at a mega corp, especially as compared to my previous startup job. There are way too many cooks in the kitchen on every halfway interesting project. But the mega corp job pays too much to leave. Do this for a few more years and I'll reach financial independence. Then I can go back to a startup or ... something else. Part of me wishes for the layoff and severance that more and more of my colleagues are getting. Sorry to be such a downer. Most days are enjoyable and I can tune out the mega corp nonsense.

I'm the same age and I'm an engineering manager. I never thought I'd be working for a big company and most of my career I hadn't but now I am. At least where I am I think the engineers have more or less equal contribution to killing creativity and sucking life out of your soul. There's a symbiosis there. I have to deal with engineers that over-complicate everything, make things drag forever, apply philosophies they don't really understand, argue about the dumbest things in code reviews etc. As was mentioned in one of the other comments, many people that are in software development today aren't there's because they like it or have aptitude (those things often go together), they're there because it seemed like a good career. There are still some great people though.

At the end of the day culture is created by the people. Big companies are the way they are because of a combination of people and the business. Management maybe has a somewhat bigger influence but it's really not fair to put the blame squarely on management. I've also seen big companies that were much better (mostly where I am now) and much worse. I've also experienced a pretty bad startup. A middle manager can have it worse because [they are] stuck in between- I often take care of a lot of crap for my team.

For my part as a manager I try to make things better where I can. I never stopped doing technical work. I have deep technical roots and a lot of startup experiences to draw on.

I've always lived frugally and have done well financially. I'm still working for the challenges and the money and maybe it's just inertia ;)

Yeah I'm at a mega corp and I'm 50.. I have started really hating my job the last couple of years.

I wanted to earn more and moved into an architect role. This was fine for a while, I really enjoyed smoothing our internal IT experience for our users and bringing all my technical expertise to the table. But then we got an idiot director who wanted to separate architects from technical work.

But now I no longer spend my time with the nuts and bolts but I'm supposed to lay out the work for the operations team. While not having any access to anything. This is a major problem because I learn by doing and Microsoft's documentation is often an outright lie. So my knowledge is withering away, I'm not happy because I'm not doing anything technical and I spend half my day with pencil pushers talking about policies and governance which I don't give any f### about.

And our security team has gone full BOFH and making everything purposely difficult without considering the user experience. In fact sometimes I think they forcefully want to make sure things are difficult for everyone because people associate difficulty doing their work with security ("if it's so difficult to do my job it must be impossible for an attacker to get into it!"). But many of the measures they put in place make no sense. For example for some systems I have to authenticate to the same MFA method 3 times in a row.

And we're now forced to log our hours in Jira (our new director thinks that just logging hours in Jira somehow makes us 'agile'). So I'm being much more micro managed by people who don't have any clue what I do. And just bitching to me about time spent on tasks.

But I'm kinda stuck now :( I wish I could just leave but I need the money :'(

I'm 57, a data scientist and just can't keep my hands off concrete problems, which means I need to write code as well. Although I enjoy good modeling most, right now AI makes even mundane parts of the work fun again.

I'm not much younger than you and almost everything you've written about your life applies to me too. Except for this sentence:

> I don't even have to work if I don't want to anymore.

I'm in awe of IT professionals who have really made good money. I worked in academia for most of my life, and have always been of the opinion that we are paid really, really comfortably. But to able to pretty much retire in my mid-50s? That's science fiction.

Do you feel that your technical skills, people skills, or luck have helped you to avoid any ageist treatment you've encountered over the years? Especially in scenarios where "deciders" are younger than you.

I had a colleague who's in his early 30s talk about management and matter of factly told a story about his mentor saying "you don't still want to be programming when you're 40, do you?" That thought had never even crossed my mind.

But like in art and so also in programming you can definitely strive for perfection.

There are plenty of writers, some famous, most not, who keep rewriting and rewriting because it's not perfect and still get annoyed because it's not good enough when published. Software generally is a job to make money : who give a crap if it's perfect; not your boss or your company clients. But personally, is another thing. I definitely have software that is perfect in my eyes. I don't care if others don't think so but I worked decades on it and using and updating it makes me happier than other things. I am well over 50 and I do not see this change for me.

There are well known examples too in software, for instance Jonathan Blow, who estimates stuff and then overshoots by a long shot because he does not like the result enough and Arthur Whitney who keeps rewriting his 'perfect' (in his eyes) software (k) to just a little perfect-er.

When I think of "great art under great constraints", I think of the demo scene, not dealing with the legacy cruft in someone else's million-line codebase.

I'm curious what your career trajectory was like. I'm surprised that your experiences are so different than mine (see my comment below). In the early years, we had tons of time to just play around (e.g. Paul Graham wrote Hackers and Painters in 2004).

There is a large variety between perfect code and code people usually complain about. Not only weak engineers complain about crappy code and stupid decisions.

As an Artist and an Engineer, too many engineers are perfectionist in a reality where it doesn't exist. To the people here who quote artists and works of art as if they are "perfect"... you. were. not. there. It's only perfect to you in your perfection biased brain. Art is very much imperfect. Concessions were made, pieces restarted, plans changed. Creation is messy and painful. Art or Engineering.

> Great art is always made under great constraints. Software is no different.

I don't agree that great art (or software) is always made under great constraints. If you have an intrinsic drive, having enough time can yield a compound return. For example, in research, the "publish or perish" mentality often forces people to focus on shorter-term problems rather than pursuing more ambitious, long-term breakthroughs.

>Great art is always made under great constraints.

It's sad, the Mona Lisa never quite reached its peak because da Vinci didn't have a Jira board and a scrum master /s

Some of these constraints are not truly necessary and often stifling and once you've done work without them, you can't go back. Usually that's when you're older.

"I got hired into a FAANG in my 50s"

That is unique isn't it? I'm kind of curious.

I'm programmer in 50's and want to switch industries to try something different. Any advice on the journey.

> The field became flooded with people who didn't care about anything but the money.

This is what ruined SF. All the people who made fun of me growing up for being into computers were all of the sudden working at Twitter as a product manager. They don’t give a shit about the craft, potential, OG hacker culture that’s an offshoot of counter culture movement, the history… it’s just let’s monetize the iPhone since everyone has one and I can understand that.

Man, you nailed it. I finished EE degree in 1992 and was having so much fun by 1994 writing C for a small software company. That led to a job with a FANNG (actually a MAMAA) where I've been ever since. I'm still lucky to be writing the kind of code I like writing, but the process is way more frustrating than ever due to what you've described. There are way too many people involved now who picked the field because it was high-paying, not because they were inspired by the Apollo program, or tinkered on a TRS-80 when they were 12 and were hooked.

I'm also lucky I went full time remote in 2014, and had managers who supported me taking a part-time side gig as a paid-on-call firefighter/EMT for my local small community. This has transitioned into a great opportunity to "retire" from software and still have something very fulfilling to direct my energy towards. It's just that I'm not ready to ditch the code-writing habit.

I'm 52. I absolutely love building software find customers for it and building businesses on serving them. It's the most intellectually challenging and financially rewarding thing I can think of for myself. And programming is one of the joys of the job.

The reason I find it more enjoyable than others might, is because I have considerable autonomy on how I will build my software, on what timelines, and who I'll sell it to.

The real problem with software development is not the complexity of our tech stack. It's the lack of agency that most programmers are forced to live with.

I fully agree with you. After a few happy experiences in development, I started to work as a developer for an ERP service company. I was served functional spec that I had to implement. I only had to look at the technical of things, and I quickly became bored.

So I transitioned to a client-facing role which was more interesting in a way, but with too much stress and too much management to do.

Now I try to find my niche in between, staying client facing but still handling the technical tasks. I find it's a really interesting position, it's very efficient since it reduce the amount of necessary communication, and it's very satisfying.

It does not work for big projects though.

> Every age, every culture, every ethos and tradition has its own style, its own varieties of gentleness and harshness, of beauty and cruelty. Each age takes certain kinds of suffering for granted, patiently accepts certain evils. Human life becomes a true hell only when two ages, two cultures, and religions overlap. Someone from the Graeco-Roman world, forced to live in the Middle Ages, would have died a miserable death, just as a savage would in our civilized world. There are times when an entire generation is caught between two eras, two styles of life, so that it loses all sense of morality, security, and innocence. A man like Nietzsche had to endure our present misery more than a generation ahead of his time. Today, thousands endure what he suffered alone and without understanding.” — steppenwolf

As a bit of a stoic myself, I appreciate the appeal to the "some people have real problems" argument.

I think a big part of the frustration or unhappiness of some subset of this generation of software engineer who cut their teeth in "The Golden Age" is lamenting or longing for "what could have been...". Maybe it's our slow realization of Sturgeon's Law and wish that we would have discovered this seemingly universal truth ages ago. Software, being mainly a construction of the mind, has the potential to be truly great (and some is), yet the state is basically "All Software is Shit". Squaring the expectations of my junior self with the realities of my senior self is... disappointing.

I'm sitting at my home office, able to play with my dog during breaks, while simultaneously having a lot of autonomy at my job. I love it, and would not trade it for anything. People seem to really get used to their way of living and lose perspective, then becoming unhappy. We've got it really really good.

It's more comfortable, for sure. But comfort is not the only aspect to life.

It might even be a negative given how miserable software developers tend to be compared to those with much less comfortable jobs.

Yeah, I'll take it all day long. I'm not even done with my first year of my first software engineering job so perhaps I'm full of optimism and hope. But in a previous life I was cooking on a line and moving tons of gravel with a wheelbarrow with my brother. I much prefer my situation now.

Absolutely not. Human happiness is a tad more than having air conditioning.

... and it sucks that this is the most excitement you (or I) can muster. This means that our sense of agency is dead, along with the ability to innovate.