Try thinking and learning without working memory (2008)
84 comments
·February 18, 2025Glyptodon
xyzzy123
Multiple small kids are incredibly disruptive to this. Just, a continuous "happening", constant out-of-context asks and "situations". 5 different things can happen between noticing or thinking of a task and being able to do anything about it. God help you if you have to go from one room to another because that in itself requires explanations (the best case is they quietly follow you to find out whats going on).
There are long stretches of my day where functionally, I have no free working memory at all. The main way I stay barely functional is by keeping memory "in the state of the world". The way I remember I promised to fix the tap today is by placing the tool kit prominently next to the tap, etc. As a last resort I try to write things down.
anitil
> keeping memory "in the state of the world"
This is what I do as well. If things aren't exactly where I left them, I'll not only never find them, but I'm likely to forget they ever existed.
bbreier
Not likely to be a workable system in a home with children, then
jvanderbot
Checklists are the only way I survive. Todos yes, but also basic checklists of "don't forgets"
cwmoore
“Don’t fuck with my mise” (Anthony Bourdain’s paraphrase of a line chef co-worker)
mise is kitchen French for like the IDE of a cook’s station
aGHz
The full term is "mise en place" and your analogy with the IDE is not far off, but there's an interesting nuance that's very useful to adopt when programming too. Mise en place is an ephemeral thing, you do it every time you start cooking and you look ahead at all the things you will need and arrange them in an optimal way for the steps you will take. It's an activity that encourages you to:
- always start from a clean state
- chunk your time
- give a bit of forethought to the work ahead
- do a little bit of workflow optimization
Over time, this is one habit that can have impressive compounding benefits.
diob
Working memory being terrible is one of the biggest issues I experience with my ADHD.
I forgot why I went somewhere, or worse I do something different upon arrival.
nomel
> The reason abstractions are so valuable is that they allow for compression of something into working memory.
I wonder if people with smaller working memory necessarily have more organized mental models, to facilitate the compression. People with autism [1] and ADHD [2] tend to have decreased working memory. Are their mental models more "optimized" for compression?
kqr
...or do they just perform worse on these memory-intensive tasks? The latter seems more likely to be common.
notarobot123
But the uncommon case is interesting though. Some deficiencies might lead to a certain kind of problem-solving that occasionally produces exceptionally useful solutions. Isn't that why we valorize laziness in programmers?
yamrzou
> Anyway, I think it's one of those things you don't really notice until it goes bad somehow.
So true!
HexPhantom
Yeah, totally agree, working memory is basically the brain's RAM, and when it's running low, everything slows down.
LinuxAmbulance
ADHD makes a mockery of working memory. The number of times I'll have to go back to see what the the fourth, fifth and sixth digit of a six digit sequence were is truly frustrating.
The article indicates that working memory can be improved though, going to have to give that a try.
cbsmith
> ADHD makes a mockery of working memory.
Honestly, I don't find I have much of a problem with working memory. Sure, my ability to recall a meaningless number several minutes later is absolutely terrible, but a handling an analysis or conversation about a complicated subject (complex is a different matter that relies on raw intelligence more than working memory) with lots of important detail seems to be easier for me, to the point where other people tap out with "information overload" when I'm moving along just fine.
Of course, executing a complicated process is a whole different matter, because the ADHD brain quickly loses interest and focuses on something else.
annie_muss
I took a properly administered IQ test as part of my ADHD diagnosis. It was eye opening.
All through the test I felt like I was crushing it. Spacial reasoning, pattern recognition, memory tasks. When the results came back I got 135 on spatial reasoning but 89 on processing speed and working memory.
Looking back on my life I realize I had always made up for limited working memory with systems, mnemonics and other techniques. When you've lived your whole life with a limitation you can have a huge blind spot. You've never known what it's like to have "normal" working memory.
irjoe
I don't recall the exact numbers but I had a very similar experience, scoring very highly on spatial reasoning almost to the detriment of everything else.
I remember a close friend getting frustrated administering a working memory test on me. She couldn't believe how far removed from the norm my working memory capacity was given everything else she knew about me.
luckydata
Well you're not just noticing the problem or you don't have ADHD because the working memory impairment is well documented and it's essentially THE symptom of ADHD.
What you say about being more easily distracted is a side effect of impaired working memory for example.
thomastjeffery
It's more complicated than that.
For me, executive disfunction is the most significant issue; and that compounds the problem of limited working memory by wasting it on irrelevant stimulus.
genewitch
ADD is the lack of serotonin in the frontal lobe. The best way I've heard it described: there is no motivation except to not die. In the worst parts of the disorder, even that isn't motivating.
I know it is over-diagnosed because high school and college kids want to to tweak legally. But it makes it harder for those of us that actually suffer with ADD
HexPhantom
Might still be worth trying, though!
wduquette
Regarding unconscious thinking: I've known for many years that if I'm trying to implement something and what I'm doing just feels wrong and I'm not sure why, it's time to stop and come back first thing in the morning. Sleeping on it engages my back-brain; and invariably the next morning everything makes sense, sometimes immediately, and sometimes with just a small amount of work.
Mind you, the solution I have in mind when I wake isn't necessarily the right one; but I get to the right one pretty quickly.
ggambetta
I get this even on a shorter timescale with compiler errors. So many times I have a near-subconscious feeling that something's wrong with the code, and as soon as I run or compile it, there it is, a syntax error. I've been trying to train myself to pay more attention to these gut feelings, so I can act on them before the compiler gets to it.
hinkley
Time, doorways, and ritualized actions like sweeping, brushing your teeth, washing your hair, or walking tend to trigger those connections. Even going for a walk might set you right.
That’s usually when I would go for coffee when I worked in an office.
wduquette
Yup. Also going for a drive, taking a shower, etc.
HexPhantom
Ever tried deliberately priming your brain before bed? Like reviewing the problem briefly before sleeping?
wduquette
Almost daily. For years.
photochemsyn
I fell into this trap for a while:
> "The growing trend, especially among young people, to multi-task may seem wonderful. But actually, multi-tasking is most likely to interfere with focused attention and, in turn, degrade memory formation, recall, and thinking quality."
Eventually I realized that parallelization is not really possible, you end up making a mess of everything, and trying to be a rapid context-switcher - similar to the illusion of simultaneous multitasking on a single CPU core - just takes too much energy and time - 15-30 min to unload, clear the slate and reload with something else seems common.
Practically, this is why people working on difficult problems that require their full attention get really irritated by interruptions, and often prefer to work in isolation or only with like-minded individuals.+
poincaredisk
I love multitasking - I feel like I'm doing more than 100% and I like being productive.
The trick is to pick a combinations that works:
* listening to a language lesson when cycling (learning+sport)
* repeating flash cards in a bus, instead of doomscrolling (commute+learning)
* listening to a language lesson when cycling to work (learning+sport+commute - whoa!)
* thinking about my programming project when cleaning my home (work+brainless menial work)
In most cases this involves something that doesn't require to much too much conscious attention and something that does.
AppleBananaPie
I'm what you described 100%. I wonder if there's a different type of multitasking term that describes this because I swear it's a thing
Multitasking two coding problems at once completely doesn't work for me but what you described works and I do that all the time.
There seems to be a language disconnect for the type of multitasking that works vs. doesn't work.
longcrab
I've come across "action sequences" in psychology writing, which seems to be the active form of procedural memory. Over time well rehearsed actions can move from conscious parts of the brain to parts focused on motor actions like the basal ganglia ( and its friends ).
Probably easier to focus if distraction has moved to the old lizard brain.
I can't find an obviously good source to share, but there's plenty of research to check out.
theultdev
Constantly ctrl-z just to see what I was doing a second ago.
ADHD is a blessing and a curse. I can hold every line of the codebase in my head but I can't remember what I was just doing...
You figure out how to work without working memory. Just offload it all immediately.
pyinstallwoes
Treat reality as working memory substrate
djmips
Especially on home projects, I push commits frequently as a second layer of Ctrl-Z.
OracB7
Every time I have googled for it, the only method of working memory training that comes up is N-Back.
So I'm happy that the article mentions another method. Apart from playing "Simon" (yes that circular game with lights), those are the only two I know.
Anyone know of any other methods?
Cadwhisker
I wanted to look at one of the links in that page about memory training in adults.
It's ironic that the page didn't exist and I had to go to a backup from 2014 in archive.org to find it.
https://sharpbrains.com/blog/2008/04/22/working-memory-train...
https://web.archive.org/web/20140713110043/http://sharpbrain...
SpaceManNabs
I am a bit confused by this approach.
From what I've read, the training isn't necessarily transferable. You just get better at these sorts of brain games, which doesn't necessarily mean your working memory is increasing.
Even while reading gwern's blog that seemed pretty positive of this kind of training, there was limited evidence that you shouldn't learn just a new instrument or language or new sort of math discipline.
Why do people keep thinking that "training" can improve working memory?
xyzzy123
I agree that if you want to get better at specific things you should just do those things.
Usually when you "learn" something you improve your understanding of the domain, you start chunking things up into patterns and structures. This reduces your mental load and lets you use your "working memory" more effectively.
I think the intuition with say, "n-back" is that there's supposed to be no structure beyond the memory task, so any increase in performance _must_ be an improvement in some sort of generalised "working memory".
As I understand it people have shown that there is "transferance" between these various types of working-memory based brain games (i.e, getting good at one can improve your performance on others that you haven't done before). But no one has shown that getting good at (say) dual n-back produces a strong improvement in "real tasks" that aren't just memory games.
creature_x
I can attest to the benefits of n-back. I've been doing it for a couple of years now, five days a week for 20-25 minutes. I've noticed a tangible positive difference in both my verbal fluency and my processing speed on days where I engage this protocol.
I've benefited so much from this protocol that I created a mini app just for myself (https://mind-workout.pages.dev/)* as I was unable to find a suitable app for mac. [On windows there 's Brain Workshop (https://brainworkshop.sourceforge.net/)
*This is a variation of the n-back task called triple n-back, which is much harder than dual n-back.
drited
The evidence is mixed, but some studies (e.g. Jaeggi) did find transfer effects from n back training to fluid intelligence.
It only takes 40 mins a day for 8 weeks to test it out. Much less time than the commitment to learn a new language.
Having tried it, I wouldn't be surprised if the mixed results were due to improper adherence and misunderstanding of how n back works by some study participants. In other words, I think it's possible that results would be less mixed for someone who is already starting from a point of solid intelligence and who is driven enough to put in the hard,focused work to get to higher n back levels.
HexPhantom
Yeah, I've always heard about N-Back too, but I've never actually tried it. I had no idea "Simon" was considered memory training
michaelcampbell
Gwern has a lot of research and meta-research about this (if memory serves, hah), and in general I seem to recall that doing brain games like dual-n-back makes you better at brain games like dual-n-back.
Which is perhaps not without merit, but...
TrainedMonkey
Concur seeing same research, a thought in the back of my head - does learning one of these games makes you faster at learning other games? Does that translate at learning faster in areas that would use similar recall patterns. There is some research that when you learn N>5 languages (https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-study-polyglots-brain-processi...) the brain layout changes. What happens when you practice / master >X memory recall games.
yamrzou
Link to Gwern's article: Dual n-Back FAQ - https://gwern.net/dnb-faq
dgan
I have found that setting to myself a limited, 30 or 40min window, where i am not allowing myself to do anything else but the task I have to do, is actually a sensible way to trick the brain to work on things. Then i swith context. Like coding for 30min,then filling a visa application
onnnon
Reminds me of the "Hammock Driven Development" talk from Rich Hickey:
xupybd
>Imagine dialing a phone number by having to look up each digit one at a time in the phone book
This was me for the first 38 years of my life. I got a degree and worked as a software developer with memory that bad.
yamrzou
How did you manage it?
xupybd
I didn't know any better. I just looked things up. Including variables all the time. intellisense was a god send.
Then I sorted my sleep apnea and Celiac and my memory started working. It's like life on easy mode. I'm not smarter but having that mental scratch pad of memory is awesome. Even little things like getting an auth code and not having to read out each number one by one.
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rickcarlino
Being a caretaker for someone with Alzheimer’s has been a real eye opener to how critical working memory is. I think a large portion of our personal success in life is contingent on our working memory or the ability to manage it effectively.
mentalgear
"The training task to expand working memory capacity consisted of presenting a digit or a word item for a second, with one-second intervals between items. For example, a sequence might be 5, 8, 4, 7, with one-second intervals between each digit. Test for recall could take the form of “Where in the sequence was the 4?” or “What was the third item?” Thus students had to practice holding the item sequence in working memory. With practice, the trainers increased the number of items from 3 to 8.
After training, researchers tested the children on another working memory task. Scores on this test indicated that working memory correlated with IQ test scores. That is, children with better working memory ability also had higher IQs."
Working memory is waaaay more critical than you might think to all levels of functionality. There are many basic tasks, like walking to another room to get something and noticing something minor, like a pen on a table that should be put away, and doing both tasks, that depend on working memory. The same with mentaly reasoning through a complex system. The reason abstractions are so valuable is that they allow for compression of something into working memory.
For me, personally, this is why I often approach things by scaffolding them into relationships with existing structures (mentally) - by integrating with an existing structure, I avoid a sort of fragmentation overload in my working memory.
Anyway, I think it's one of those things you don't really notice until it goes bad somehow.