Reality has a surprising amount of detail (2017)
163 comments
·February 18, 2025tombert
suby
I don't actually know, but I'd wager a lot that it's the graphics rather than the physics which causes the game to be slow. Generally the expensive thing in video games is rendering. Computing the next world state is generally relatively cheap, especially if we're talking about a confined area with a very small number of rigid bodies (the ball, flippers, bumpers). A pinball game like Pinball FX that's rendering a 3d world with lighting, it'd just be shocking to me if the physics were to blame for the performance.
jjmarr
Here's a gif on how a real pinball bumper works:
https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanical_gifs/comments/aflmj7/how...
It's not really a rigid body, it's a dynamic component that squeezes the ball.
ninetyninenine
Nah. This is easily emulated with an impulse force. The outcome a nanosecond after the ball leaves the bumper is just an impulse. Users can't tell the difference.
rachofsunshine
Especially with such a small number of rigid bodies to worry about. The literal only thing that has to collide with anything else is the pinball itself, unless we're talking about a pretty weird pinball machine.
tombert
Yeah fair, it's tough to say; they're simulating a few non-obvious things too, like ball spin, but it's possible it's mostly graphics.
I think my overall point still stands, but you might be right.
ETA:
I would like to point out that my dad was debating buying one of those virtual pinball tables, and so we played one at a mall, it was decidedly not fun. The physics were way too floaty, and didn't feel good at all. It looked like they were running it on some shitty Android and just mounted a big TV.
That's why I thought that maybe it was the physics in PinballFX slowing things down.
ninetyninenine
I bet it has nothing to do with the graphics or the physics and everything to do with the fact that you can't feel the ball. There's vibrations that can be felt when you play with a real pinball machine.
bostonpete
Ball spin would be trivial to simulate. The only way I could see the physics getting at all expensive is if they went overboard with fluid dynamics
sjs382
Have you seen the virtual pinball tables that emulate depth by tracking your head? It's a great effect
accrual
Good story for getting a handle on the idea. It kind of reminded me of fractals and how we find some parallels between phenomena at every scale, e.g. galaxies and rotating water as it flows down your drain.
dang
Related. Others?
Reality has a surprising amount of detail (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38407851 - Nov 2023 (136 comments)
Reality has a surprising amount of detail - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36309597 - June 2023 (1 comment)
Reality has a surprising amount of detail (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29429385 - Dec 2021 (118 comments)
Reality has a surprising amount of detail (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28006256 - July 2021 (1 comment)
Reality has a surprising amount of detail (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22020495 - Jan 2020 (115 comments)
Reality has a surprising amount of detail (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16184255 - Jan 2018 (294 comments)
ramon156
Its a yearly tradition!
karparov
And this is one of the main utilitarian arguments for diversity in teams. If everybody has the same socio-cultural background, it's harder to leave the frame.
akoboldfrying
It's a sound argument.
The argument that culturally homogeneous teams perform better due to more efficient communication (more is "already understood" at the outset, so there's less need to communicate explicitly, and fewer misunderstandings) is also sound.
So from a purely team-performance-maximising perspective, the question is: Which coefficient is higher? (More generally: What level of mixture is optimal?)
sfink
My suspicion is that this is not answerable in general.
To a first approximation: whichever of the two your political leanings make you more comfortable with.
To a second approximation: if your task is efficiency at a constrained task, homogeneity. If your task requires exploration and/or creativity, heterogeneity.
To a third approximation: the 2nd approximation argument, except the demands of nearly all tasks change over time.
Then you factor in the environment, including your management's competence at eliciting the value of various team members, etc.
And don't forget risk. Optimizing for a high level of performance in any dimension makes things brittle in all other dimensions.
rramadass
> The argument that culturally homogeneous teams perform better due to more efficient communication (more is "already understood" at the outset, so there's less need to communicate explicitly, and fewer misunderstandings) is also sound.
False Equivalence.
Efficient Communication is secondary to Different Whats and Whys which is what a diverse collection of people from different cultural backgrounds bring to the table. A single idea communicated however imperfectly can change the world. This is the reason "equal opportunities" should be guaranteed to all even though "equal outcomes" cannot be guaranteed.
So define a "suitable standard requirement" for a specific role and try and collect a diverse group of people who meet those criteria.
tbrownaw
> This is the reason "equal opportunities" should be guaranteed to all
Oh silly me, I thought the reason was that it follows naturally from everyone having equal moral worth.
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snikeris
> If you wish to not get stuck, seek to perceive what you have not yet perceived
This may seem like impractical advice. How does one increase the scope of perception? Personally, I’ve found that a meditation practice leads to this.
patcon
I always think of it as learning to see hidden dimensions, and once seen, investigate deeper or just imagine transformations of that dimension -- extrapolation, inversion, etc. Once found, you can drag around these hidden dimensions from one domain or one instance to the next.
Like sometimes I seem to be in alignment with someone, but things feel off. I once realized the "off" feeling was because I was running toward something I believed in, and they're running away from another thing that scared them. It's only circumstantial we were intellectually walking in the same direction, so I tread thoughtfully in collaboration with this person. It's attractive force vs repulsive.
Once I knew to look for this "away vs toward" dimension, I see it often :)
thenobsta
Meditation has totally helped me widen my scope and soften my awareness. I've found these two exercises also help me get out of my default mode of perception.
Image Streaming[1] is a fun little exercise that has helped me expand my perception of things or problems. I try to do it in a very high dynamic range way -- where I zoom out of a scene describe it in detail and then zoom in a describe it in detail.
There is also a fun improv exercise where you walk around looking at objects and calling it the wrong name. It sort of gets you our of default mode and you start seeing things 'differently' (a touch more vivid). I think the exercise is described in Impro by Keith Johnstone.
[1]: https://winwenger.com/resources/cps-techniques/image-streami...
thenobsta
Found a link to a description of the exercise.
https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/01/23/impro-by-keith-johnsto...
tippytippytango
Don’t ignore any question is the strategy I’ve found. The problem is that some questions fall just below the conscious threshold. Meditation seems to help dredge up the questions and take them seriously.
rachofsunshine
The way I did it was by deliberately going against my normal impulses. The rule was "whatever you would normally do, do the opposite of that". If you would stay home, go out. If you would eat a steak, eat spaghetti instead. If you would get drunk, stay sober. If you would stay sober, get drunk. Basically, as long as it's not something that's likely to do irrevocable harm, do things that don't seem like good ideas and just see what happens.
The limits on our experiences are usually self-imposed by the fact that we tend to make specific choices limited to specific contexts. The experiences you have are the experiences that derive from what you think is a good idea. So doing things you think are bad ideas tends to result in a lot of new experiences.
_def
Talk to another human
richx
This is what the DOGE guys don’t understand: even if it seems you can easily replace something, you will find out that the devil is in the detail.
amrodst
Removing something critical and seeing what happens is a methodology used by Musk in all his companies: remove LIDAR from self driving car, remove flame trench from spaceship launch pad, etc. Results may vary.
andrewflnr
"Results may vary" is not an acceptable methodology for the US Government, when millions of lives are potentially at stake.
Ed: among the ways millions of lives could be lost: losing control of our nuclear arsenal or nuclear materials due to haphazardly firing people responsible for maintaining them. Bungling the response to the next pandemic, due to haphazardly firing people, cutting science funding and deleting inconvenient data. Starvation and disease from ceasing aid around the world. There's also the wars likely to result from the collapse of trust in the US as a security partner, but I suppose it's not correct to blame that on DOGE per se, even if it's an extension of the same principle.
nuancebydefault
Sometimes people (e.g. US voters) will only learn by running into a wall. How all exactly will turn out is hard to tell and frankly maybe we better don't know. I'm tending to the conclusion there's no way around the movement of the big picture, the shifting of geo-political order in the world.
MichaelZuo
This seems circular, since your opinion, views, thoughts, etc., are what the opposing factions are rejecting ( or de-legitimizing) in the first place.
knightfall21
[flagged]
angst_ridden
Never ask ol' Chesterfield about his fence.
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rzzzt
Ahem, "blow some my way"! For fence-related matters Chesterton is the person to ask.
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lolinder
Can we please not DOGEify every comment thread? I know that it's on a lot of minds all the time, but we have a whole spot on the front page effectively reserved for DOGE 24/7, and I'd like to see literally anything else in the other 29 slots.
bigstrat2003
Agreed. People are unhealthily obsessed with DOGE here. And on top of that, basically every DOGE thread turns into a flame war. It's extremely deleterious for the site to have everything collapse into DOGE talk.
cma
Thiel was part of ycombinator for a time, current head of yc worked for Palantir and has been working on DOGE-related Curtis Yarvin type stuff, so it is likely to come up here a lot.
theshackleford
If my countries institutions were being dismantled by chuds via dubious and unprecedented means I’d be pretty obsessed.
cbracketdash
I agree its quite annoying. But it only comes up because of the massive change it will cause across the whole country and it's important to remain prepared for implications.
lolinder
A large percentage of HN's population doesn't live in the US, and many of those of us who do have other ways of keeping track of what's going on. Threads about DOGE on HN are not useful, they're almost always just flame wars. Those who feel enlightened by them can join the daily thread that inevitably pops up and leave the rest of us to talk about other things.
tomrod
It's timely, current, and surprisingly related. I see no issue here. See my sister comment as to why.
bloomingkales
[flagged]
shawndumas
second system syndrome
yapyap
They don’t care.
They don’t care about ‘saving money’, they’re just messing about to see if they can. To move the goalpost of what is acceptable. To goosestep the United States back into a Russia-aligned nation that lets rich people pluck the poors bald like chickens.
BlackjackCF
The cruelty is the point.
dartos
> To move the goalpost of what is acceptable
Not just that. They’re gish galloping the courts and the news.
So many things, some dumb, some dangerous, some contradictory.
The goal is to make it impossible to o keep track of what’s going on.
knightfall21
[flagged]
exe34
you don't have to ask people for their intentions, you just have to watch what they do. look at how many government organisations that were investigating the Musk empire got Dodged: https://democrats-judiciary.house.gov/uploadedfiles/2025.02....
tomrod
On reading the article before the comments, I literally was remembering Musk's initial descriptions of The Boring Company and how they were wildly forgetting or glossing over key details that would mean the difference between exciting leap forward to terrifying death trap.
I find your comment to be the same idea, but on something folks have foisted upon them and are forced to experience.
dartos
Ignoring details has been very lucrative for Musk.
Remember when he said self driving is coming next year… every year… since 2017
majkinetor
Indeed, Musk is the first and only man to ever do that.
coliveira
The universe seems to have a fractal structure. At every scale we can look there is a huge amount of detail.
Terr_
I'd be cautious about the word "fractal" misleading us into looking for a scale-spanning pattern that dictates both large and small details simultaneously.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and fine features occur for different reasons than coarse features.
andrewflnr
> fine features occur for different reasons than coarse features
Important point. This makes reality even less tractable than a fractal, by a solid margin!
doug_durham
How much of that is new detail versus repeated patterns? A good approximation of all human visual reality fits in a 5GB diffusion model.
ninetyninenine
Not true at all there’s limits in terms of scale in both directions.
efilife
There is limits?
bee_rider
What does it mean for the universe to have a fractal nature, other than that it looks more detailed the closer you look?
I mean, I think it is very poetic to suppose the universe has some sort of underlying fractal structure. But… perhaps the universe just looks like it has a fractal structure because the finest details are pretty small relative to us. At the bottom, the atoms, electrons, and quarks are more like potentials anyway, right?
They don’t have solid surfaces anyway. Maybe we can plot the potential fields in a way that makes them look like fractals? But… my modern physics, fields and waves, and even my mathematical understanding of fractals are all a bit rusty (so, what am I even doing in this conversation? Oh well), but shouldn’t the potential fields eventually be smooth at some point? And fractals are not very smooth.
Therefore I conclude the universe doesn’t have a fractal structure, it is just very small. But that isn’t poetic at all. :(
lotharcable
The other problem is that all the details matter all the time.
Like if you want to mathematically model what happens in a pool table hall when somebody strikes a ball with a great deal of force... by the time you get to the six or seventh bounce you are going to have to start to take into account the position and movement of people standing around the table watching it. The airflow, the vibration of them moving, the relative gravitational forces, etc. It all matters all the time.
And the problem only gets worse the larger the scale and longer the timelines.
Like if you want to manage a economy.
It is tempting to want to look at "things from a high level" and imagine that all the details just kinda average themselves out. So it isn't necessary to figure out the behavior of each individual in a national economy. It should be possible to simply plot out the results of their decision making over time and extrapolate that into the future to come up with meaningful policy decisions and 5 year plans.
The problem is that that doesn't work. Because all the details matter all the time.
Also the very act of making policies causes changes in the behavior economy in wildly unpredictable manners. Every individual actor involved is going to change their behavior and decision making based on your decision making, which then changes the behavior and decision making of every other individual, etc etc. In a endless fractal involving billions of actors, since your national economy is not isolated from the forces of every other economy and visa versa.
Also trying to make targets out of measurements and indicators tends to destroy the value of the measurements and indicators. Meaning that by setting policies you are destroying the information you are basing your decisions off of.
So you can't collect enough information to make good decisions. The information you receive is already obsolete by the time you get it. And the act of trying to create rules and policies based on the information you do have tends to destroy what little value it has left.
bobson381
You sound like you would really enjoy the book Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have failed.
I wonder if a lot of this comes back to the enlightenment/science-y way of looking at the world that imagines that the way to understand stuff is to break it into subproblems, solve those, and build back up from there. It relies on a fundamental assumption that there are separate things instead of a big continuous process of happening. I recently read about a study where participants were asked to pick the best car for a set of needs, and were given 4 variables per car in one case, and 16 variables per car in another. Then, each group was either distracted while pondering, or allowed to think through it directly/consciously. The conscious thought group did better than distracted group did when there were 4 variables, but worse when there were more. Intuition is great at the missable details.
nativeit
…and that’s all before you get into all the other logical fallacies that tend to compromise one’s perspective. Anything that requires anticipating and/or interpreting the behaviors of other people, or that involves accounting for risks or probabilities—these are especially fraught as our own instincts and nature actively works to warp objective reality.
In the context of policy making (or presidential fiat, as the case may be), there is always the risk of mistaking what people should do with what they will do. A pragmatic strategy for success will include systems that can help to thwart the worst impulses of our flawed reasoning, including things like dispassionate peer reviewed analyses (oops) that is untethered by the ambitions or ideologies of individual people or groups (oops), a diverse array of advisory opinions (oops), functional checks on monolithic authority (oops), and mechanisms for correcting prior mistakes (fingers crossed).
I think this all contributes to the phenomenon that folks have (a bit erroneously) associated with the Dunning-Kruger effect—essentially the idea that people who haven’t learned enough to know how much they don’t know are dangerously overconfident and naive. That said, I think there is a tendency to assume this about others that’s probably fallacious in and of itself. In the case of current events, I don’t believe the individuals involved actually care enough to have even mounted the left peak of the Dunning-Kruger chart, but rather are fully uninformed and unconcerned with much of any implications outside of their own very narrow ideological ends (it’s probably more accurate to apply Dunning-Kruger to the ideology itself, or maybe the broader coalition of partisan cohorts who share it, than it is the people wielding it).
Trasmatta
One thing I find interesting is the apparent "End of Greatness". It seems like the fractal nature of reality has both an upper and lower bound?
> The End of Greatness is an observational scale discovered at roughly 100 Mpc (roughly 300 million light-years) where the lumpiness seen in the large-scale structure of the universe is homogenized and isotropized in accordance with the cosmological principle. At this scale, no pseudo-random fractalness is apparent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe#End_of_Gre...
jandrese
Possible, but since that scale is so far outside of human experience it is possible there is detail there that we are unable to perceive using our most modern techniques.
metalman
Its not just the(possible) fractal nature of the universes structure,it is that the composition of idividual portions varries, and those portions react differently to the forces bieng exerted on them. And then at the fine level, is it the same to accelerated by a gravitational force, as it is to be accelerated by a magnetic one, of course not. We have layers of complexity, and it is quite beyond any imagining or quantifying. Luckily our aproximations will get a sandwich made or soup,it might be better for pondering the universe, as it can be stired to make little swirly fractals.
go_elmo
Maybe its not due to the universe but our perception of it?
chrisweekly
That presupposes a distinction between the universe and the observer. The idea that any such distinction is an illusion is both ancient and profound. (Perhaps even obvious, at least in the abstract.)
glenstein
I think it can be charitably interpreted to mean, for everyday purposes, however much you "zoom in" on something, there's meaningful details at lower and lower resolutions until you've exhausted your focus or ability to zoom.
saxenauts
why is our perception and the way it works different from the universe?
with enough agency, and ignoring everything else in the world you realize that your perception is all there is, that you can ever be sure of.
There is no universe, there is no quantum physics. Those are just models, your perception models them.
netdevphoenix
Surely, keeping a 1:1 match between our perception of the universe and the universe itself is a kind of order that would be constantly under threat by the inexorable move towards increasing entropy. The lack of match either now or in the future is what you would expect. Chaos is the expect state, order is the exception. Hence you should not expect for that match to exist by default
GMoromisato
I wonder if this is one reason why AI seems to have scaling limits. If building stairs is decomposed into n-steps, and each of those steps is decomposed into n-steps, and you keep on decomposing for L levels, then each time you want an extra level of detail you need n-times the training data/training time.
ninetyninenine
No it’s rather obvious why. It’s not a scaling issue otherwise humans wouldn't be able to exist. It’s missing data. It’s like trying to learn to swim by watching other swimmers only. You can keep watching more and more of this but there’s limits.
There are two things that enable us to do it. First we have prebuilt application specific brains. Our neural networks are geared towards specialized thinking related to human living without any training needed. LLMs are free form intelligences with no bias. To bring it back to the analogy, do you really need to teach a beaver to swim if it was always raised on land?
Second text and visual data alone is not enough information to build a model of the world. As humans we have more data and we can control data. Meaning we see, hear, listen, and importantly we can place inputs into the data and observe differences in outputs.
This is why alpha go is so powerful. It’s able to get the input data and observe the output and learn. LLMs don’t do this on an automated basis yet.
djsavvy
One of my favorite blog posts of all time.
firebirdn99
its a pretty great realization to come along. We are all stardust, but complicated bits and blobs of atoms and molecules.
calimoro78
a.k.a "Humans are unsurprisingly such simpletons when forming their mental model of reality, and always oversimplify."
EvanAnderson
There's the reasonable amount of oversimplification necessary to just get through life, then there's actively trying to oversimplify because it makes life "easier".
I judge people very harshly based on whether they accept reality as complex or rail against it. I am not proud that I do it, but it seems like it has value.
I feel like strong yearnings for simplicity (and willingness to ignore messy reality) correlates with people who are unpleasant to have in my life. So many "simplicity-oriented" people are happy to burden others with "the details" but are unwilling to actually "pay" others to bear that burden. They're pretty vile people.
Edit: The people who recognize the value in offloading complexity and do "pay" (often handsomely) and are the best Customers to have. I've had some really rewarding financial and personal relationships with people who recognize their offloading complexity is a service you provide.
majkinetor
~ i feel like strong yearnings for simplicity (and willingness to ignore messy reality) correlates with people who are unpleasant to have in my life.
Wow man, I like this so much. I feel it strongly
samwise135
Reading Ian McGilchrist’s “Master and his Emissary” has been incredibly eye opening on this theme.
Oversimplification and getting upset with the world when it doesn’t fit your model of it is definitely a poor character trait —- which is nevertheless unfortunately trained and rewarded in our schools and much of our professional work.
The world is what it is and there are some helpful abstractions for navigating it, but don’t be upset when your model fails as it always will.
nuancebydefault
Indeed, often when we humans are upset about something, we later understand things better. Then comes that aha moment in which we see we were jumping to conclusions.
bobson381
I was hoping this would get mentioned! I heard a podcast with him and was enthralled. Are his interpretations and outlook on this considered "valid" by the scientific community? I've been intrigued but curious about how seriously he's taken.
handedness
Previous discussions:
henjodottech
Thought this would reference reality being encoded in 10^120 bits.
haburka
Imagine being a lumberjack and wood literally changed its properties every few years due to updates. They would be so pissed.
Or if you came into a construction job and the guy who was building stairs did not understand gravity, and was just using an AI to guide him.
Finally you’re working on a house and whenever you set up your drywall, it just does nothing. Turns out you were setting up drywall on the other side of the house. Common mistake.
Programming isn’t like carpentry - it’s closer to magical carpentry.
A bit tangential, but I have been playing the game "Pinball FX" a lot. I really like it (and especially its spin-off/expansion Pinball M), but it's surprisingly taxing on my computer.
I mentioned this to a friend, and he was kind of confused, understandably so, and said "...it's pinball...why is that taxing?"
It's not a dumb question, we have had virtual pinball games since the Atari 2600 at least, and even pretty fun stuff on the Amiga and DOS like Pinball Dreams and Epic Pinball, so why would a modern pinball game make my relatively beefy laptop struggle playing it?
The answer is because virtual pinball occupies a strange kind of space in the world of video games, in that they're trying to emulate something that is entirely dependent on extremely precise and subtle physics. It's not like you can really have too accurate of physics; the better the physics, the closer it is to a "real" pinball machine, and generally speaking the more fun the game is.
As such, I think you could honestly make a pinball game that taxes any hardware. You'll never be able to have "perfect" physics (as in physics that completely and totally imitate reality), you can only get asymptotically close to "perfect", and the closer you are, the more taxing the computation will end up being.
It just made me think, this applies to nearly anything. We all work with abstractions, but if dive into the details of something and recurse, it's not like it ever ends.