The Prophet of Parking: A eulogy for the great Donald Shoup
151 comments
·February 12, 2025davidw
m463
There's gotta be some middle ground. I think of san francisco, where the streets are clogged with people circling the block and folks are double parked everywhere.
joshlemer
The solution, as Donald Shoup advocated, is to raise (or in some cases, lower, and in general, have it be dynamic) parking rates to market-clearing prices for parking spots such that there are is always one (but not too much more) free spot available on the block.
immibis
How does this benefit poor people who could barely afford their homes and can barely afford to commute to their job halfway across the city by car?
If applied to an area that already is only middle-class people, then sure.
Or resident parking permits.
maxwellg
Shoup wrote a LOT about how charging too little for parking leads to everyone using it, which makes parking worse for everyone involved. San Francisco charges about $50c a day for residential street parking in areas that have a parking permit zone - which is decided on a block by block basis. Most street parking in SF is completely free.
Raise prices even slightly, and people's behaviors will adjust accordingly. I have a friend who street parked two cars until he moved to a different neighborhood and had to start paying for permits. Now he just keeps his commuter and leaves his overlander in the suburbs.
xnx
I wonder if Waymo will get big enough in San Francisco to affect this.
gopalv
> Waymo will get big enough in San Francisco to affect this
SF public transportation is "good enough" that owning a car in SF is already a decision outside of pure transportation needs.
I lived in SoMA for 2+ years without a car using ZipCar occasionally to drive to SouthBay, which was cheaper than the car payment, insurance and the parking fee put together. Plus my commute was to Palo Alto which was neat because every Caltrain out of SF stopped in PA in the mornings, I used the bullets both ways every day.
Bicycles got me and my partner everywhere, faster and more conveniently (including in a bus or BART). We even went by to Napa on the ferry with bikes on it (once the Vine Trail cycle path connects all the way to Vallejo, I want to do it again - for now you can put your bike on a bus from Vallejo, no problem).
The Lyft would be used for the Costco runs or to lug things out of Tech Shop back home, when working on something bulkier.
Then I had a kid + moved to Mission bay which was still great for my Caltrain commute, but the kid changed the way I could just grab an Uber. There was no travelling light anymore.
I struggled to use a cab because we had to drag stroller car-seat everywhere we went with the kid and often even when didn't have the kid, because you'd pick them up on the way back.
The car was bought, even though it was a bad deal financially simply because it offered a fixed set of storage items we always had.
Even getting from location to location, the car was the slower option, it didn't make any sense except to serve as a home base for all things you needed to have with you.
andrepd
The only solution to traffic is viable alternatives to driving. Not more parking, not more lanes, not more parking lots, nor more highways, not wider roads. It's viable alternatives to driving.
amrocha
Donald’s book The High Cost of Free Parking is about this! Really great read, highly recommended.
Rest in peace.
AcerbicZero
Might be worth taking a drive through formerly "suburb" neighborhoods that are now a battle royal for street parking thanks to high density units with zero parking.
I mean, it is portland, and they will do it wrong no matter what, but still; if you expect the people we've been mass producing to handle this well going forward, I've got bad news for you.
sandworm101
Often "flexibility" simply becomes providing less parking to make room for more units on a given lot, effectively outsourcing to the surrounding community.
I lived in an area that allowed "senior" developments for 55+ people. As old people are all retired and so do not commute/drive, there were far fewer necessary parking spots and the development was deemed not to increase local traffic. Without the need to commute to work, upgrades to mass transit were deemed unnecessary. Total BS. All the care providers and visiting families ended up parking at the nearby mall. And retired people still drive. They don't commute to work but they don't sit still at home all day either. The whole pack of lies was simply a way to bypass parking regs and squeeze more condos onto the lot to the detriment of the surrounding community.
comte7092
So you make the street parking paid.
It’s insane that so much land is dedicated to giving people free space to store their personal vehicles.
“But that’s unfair!” People can take the bus.
“But the bus service isn’t good!” That’s because no one uses the bus, if there’s demand, supply will be added. The biggest determinant of transit use is the availability of parking.
bigstrat2003
> That’s because no one uses the bus, if there’s demand, supply will be added.
You need to solve this problem before you take away parking, not after. Otherwise people will never accept your proposal (and nor should they tbh, as there's no guarantee that the promised supply will arrive). Right now people are, by and large, content with the status quo. In a democratic system of government, that means you need to convince them to change, and that won't happen unless you address their objections in advance.
sandworm101
Try working in care. Try doing home care for maybe five or six different elderly clients every day, each at a random location. If we want to support elderly people we need to provide for the poorly-paid care providers who must bounce around doing that support. Telling them to take the bus is about as effective as telling Amazon to abandon delivery vans in favor of bicycles.
davidw
Malls usually have huge, empty parking lots, so it sounds like it's a win:
More people got a home to live in that costs less, and some formerly squandered land was better utilized.
And if you start doing other things like legalizing corner stores and neighborhood businesses, rather than designing everything for the automobile Uber alles, maybe some of those people will find they don't need a car.
Also, policy changes almost never happen in one nice tidy package where you do all the things at once, like eliminating expensive and arbitrary parking rules, adding a bunch of transit, re-legalizing neighborhood commercial, right-sizing roads, etc... so there are going to be fits and starts and bumps along the way. Still worth doing though.
cyberax
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davidw
Oregon has a severe housing shortage:
https://www.opb.org/article/2025/01/28/oregon-needs-to-build...
That is the root cause of homelessness:
https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/everything-you-think-you-know-...
This video also does a good job of explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQW4W1_SJmc
Eliminating costly parking regulations are quite helpful for building the kinds of housing that will help people get out of homelessness.
nayuki
Thanks for introducing me to Justine Underhill ( https://www.youtube.com/@justine-underhill ). She is a new YouTuber (4 videos so far) with excellent urbanist content! Her well-argued essays remind me of Oh The Urbanity!, Not Just Bikes, and About Here.
cyberax
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nayuki
> Homelessness is through the roof
Allocating space for car parking does not help address homelessness. In fact, it hurts it a lot.
cyberax
Nope. Allocating space for cars and prohibiting the orgy of real estate densification improves the homelessness situation. It puts less stress on people to move into The Downtown, so they are more likely to stay in more reasonably-priced areas.
triceratops
Prices going up is a clear market signal of desirability.
null
speed_spread
Desirability as housing or as investment? Because speculation has a tendency to overlook the little things that make a quality product.
null
hollywood_court
When I moved to the Portland area, I was amazed by how convenient the public transportation system was. During my two years there, I drove my car fewer than 50 times.
Yet, nearly every native Portlander I met thought I was crazy for relying on public transit. Many looked down on those who used it.
I had moved from the Caribbean, where public transportation was nonexistent, and traffic and parking were a constant nightmare. To me, Portland’s transit system felt like a game-changer—but locals didn’t seem to see it that way.
AcerbicZero
Who hated on the MAX? Other than it being a cattle car pre-covid and shutting down at like 10 or 11 everyone I knew liked it; There were more and more issues with the homeless, sure, but I don't know many portlanders who'd admit that was why they didn't like it.
immibis
I think there's some kind of filter bubble effect going on. And a little classism. People who use public transit like it and think everyone likes it, and people who never use it hate it and think everyone hates it. My ex-boss never used public transit despite living right next to a train stop, because he was rich and trains are for poor people. He probably didn't know that's how I got to the office Christmas party (in that area).
AcerbicZero
Perhaps, but from my experience, everyone in downtown PDX circa ~2015 rode the max to some degree. I am the least public transit friendly person in the world and even I rode it and loved it.
iambateman
I read the high cost of free parking last year and it permanently changed how I see the world.
In particular...the book shows how supply and demand still affects behavior, even when we don't culturally like to believe that it does.
If you have a say in the parking decisions in your city...please read the book. And if not, try to set the parking cost so there is, on average, one free space per block. Your city will be a better place if you do!
Thanks professor Shoup...rest in peace.
dkarl
> Nor are minimum parking requirements even needed: developers have the knowledge and incentives to provide the appropriate amount of off-street parking. If a developer builds too little parking, she will struggle to attract tenants and command lower rents.
This isn't entirely true. In cities where parking requirements are eliminated, many new businesses move into locations that would have previously been illegal, showing that many commercial tenants view parking requirements as excessive.
In my city, judging by public comment, support for parking requirements comes not from business owners or developers but from voters who fear a lack of parking at the businesses they frequent and who fear that parking for nearby businesses or apartment buildings will overflow into their neighborhood (the horror.)
crazygringo
> This isn't entirely true. In cities where parking requirements are eliminated, many new businesses move into locations that would have previously been illegal, showing that many commercial tenants view parking requirements as excessive.
That's the entire point though. The parking requirements are excessive. The businesses do know better. You're agreeing with the article.
dkarl
I don't disagree with much in the article, but I disagree with the implication that parking requirements are, or ever were, designed to meet the needs of businesses and business owners. They aren't. They're driven by voters who want businesses to have more parking than business owners would pay for, given the choice.
It's an important distinction because of the way arguments over parking play out. If parking requirements are engineered to match the needs of businesses and business owners, then as the article states, they aren't "needed," but also it can be argued that there's little harm in mandating what conscientious business owners do anyway, and preventing outliers from causing problems.
The article does that in its own way by attacking the research behind parking requirements, but it fails to take the next step and point out the obvious: the research would be a lot more solid if anyone believed that it mattered. Even if it started out weak by necessity, it would have been improved and updated over the decades if anybody cared. But there's literally no connection and nobody who cares about a connection.
potato3732842
>They're driven by voters who want businesses to have more parking than business owners would pay for, given the choice.
And even then it's only the vocal minority. Nobody who doesn't have an axe to grind shows up to the zoning committee meeting on such an item.
A huge amount of specific policy winds up being driven by Karens and NIMBYs who will vote for anything that drives up cost because it tends to drive out everything that isn't Startbucks or similar.
You'll have some policy and the number everyone thinks is fine is X but the Karens get to screeching and the number goes up to 12 because the people who were ok with 8 are also ok with Y but the Karens wouldn't settle for less.
triceratops
> from voters who fear a lack of parking at the businesses they frequent
IOW they want a handout from the city (free parking) to support their lifestyles.
Spivak
To a cheesy jingle tune: public services paid by taxes aren't handouts.
I don't know why this has caught on so strongly online that like water and gas hookups, electric, roads, and trash/yard waste pickups to single-family homes aren't supporting a specific lifestyle but public parking? Those evil suburbanites ruining everything. My hometown Columbus and the policy of mandatory parking is still working out great. New developments are building more parking than required of them and they're the hip trendy areas. The only places in the city where it's an issue is in and around "The Short North" where you can't fit any more parking and they moved to an app based pay system everyone hates. Whenever I'm home and want to go out with friends it's much easier to hit up Bridge Park or Franklinton because they have massive garages.
triceratops
Free public parking is a handout. I use it myself, I love it, I circle the block multiple times for a free space than pay for parking. But it is a handout.
Forcing private businesses to have parking, even if they make a business decision to not have it, is a tax on those businesses. And on all the businesses that would have been viable without that tax.
I have no issue with paid public parking. It needs to exist.
Or if we love free public services so much, we can talk about why public transport isn't free.
rcpt
Around me the public comment is often from business owners who want to drive to work and park for free.
cyberax
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hansonkd
I agree with you, but just to play devils advocate: use the property you are permitted to use and build parking on your own property. If you can't fit a garage or parking space on your land, you didn't think through the purchase for your needs.
c22
If I live in single family housing that is adjacent to a business district and I have no driveway then street parking can be pretty efficient. I can leave my car in front of my house all night long and in the daytime when I go to work people can come from other neighborhoods and park there while they take their lunch and do their shopping. If someone builds a multistory apartment building at the end of my street and doesn't provide adequate parking then now I am competing for the space in front of my house every night. Okay, so I install a driveway, now only I can park in my driveway and no one can park in front of my house (because there's a driveway there).
cyberax
Yeah. I bought this land, and it's my holy prerogative to use it as a dumping ground for mercury and lead waste.
Sure, it leaches into the water and air outside of my property, but so what? Nobody guaranteed you a mercury-free living. If you don't like it, feel free to move. You didn't pay for the previously clean air, so there's no expectation that it should _remain_ clean.
And after all, zoning has never meant to be static. So what if we allow Superfund sites in residential areas?
I can also _guarantee_ that allowing businesses to have a cheap way to dispose of dangerous waste will increase the taxes gathered, and cause faster economic growth, at least in the near term. After all, allowing companies to offload externalities is a great idea! I should be made a "prophet of economic growth"!
It's a win-win all around.
triceratops
Correct you only own your house, not the street. If you want to own the street too, a gated community is where you want to live.
LeafItAlone
What are your opinions on zoning and re-zoning? Some areas around me are being re-zoned from single-family-only properties to allowing apartment buildings. The extra housing is needed, but I can’t blame the people getting mad at the change when they spent millions of dollars on a property under the existing rules having the rules changed around them.
hooverd
You don't get it. Prices are going up because developers are building apartments that no one lives in. They just write it off. Or something. Supply and demand be damned.
Arainach
People parking on the public street in front of your house has nothing to do with the enjoyment of it. If you personally find it abhorrent, move outside the city to somewhere with fewer people.
dkarl
Exactly, we paid for our house, the sidewalk in front of it, and the street beyond that sidewalk! And our enjoyment will be ruined by... seeing people on our street who don't live here!
That's the part I don't understand at all, and I've had people try to explain it to me in person. The anger, anxiety, and affrontedness of seeing somebody parked at the curb in front of one's house... the neighborhood ruined... I can see it in their eyes and hear it in their voice, but can you explain it? For context, people frequently park on our street because of the proximity of a couple of commercial streets a few minutes' walk away, and we get completely parked up for events at a church down the block. The worst thing that has ever happened as a result is that our dogs have woken us up barking at someone retrieving their car. I blame that on our dogs, but I guess I could blame the people instead?
vel0city
Sometimes the street out front of my house will get crowded with parking. I don't mind a few cars here and there on the street, but it gets annoying when its completely slammed. It's not very comfortable driving down a street where there's only a few inches of clearance overall for a long stretch and I'm not even driving a giant truck.
I wouldn't want to live on a street where the street parking is always crowded. Some cars parking some of the time is fine; having people storing stuff on the street or being overcrowded is annoying.
cyberax
> Exactly, we paid for our house, the sidewalk in front of it, and the street beyond that sidewalk! And our enjoyment will be ruined by... seeing people on our street who don't live here!
I actually did. When I bought a house, we had parking minimums around here. And I'm also legally responsible for maintaining the PUBLIC sidewalk in front of my house.
Now the minimums are gone, and density went up. We have a couple of new slum boxes that are supposed to be "transit enabled", and of course most of people there have cars. Without parking. And so now the street parking is gone.
hooverd
Do you own the street outside your house and the street outside your neighbor's houses?
jerlam
Of course not.
People think they own the entire neighborhood, and should be able to block any development that affects them, including businesses moving in or those poor people who live in apartments/condos taking up their parking spaces.
seanmcdirmid
America is a bit strange with its excessive reliance on on-street parking. If you really want to reduce car traffic in a city, getting rid of on-street parking (or adding metered on street parking) would be the way to do that after getting rid parking requirements, cities could do it gradually, replacing a line of street parking with bike lanes or better pedestrian access.
aidenn0
There are also large swaths of America where not paying for parking is done on principle. I live in SoCal, and the paid public parking lots were (until recently) free for an hour, then $1.50 per hour after that. I would see things like a BMW 7-series circling the blocks looking for a free spot on the street.
I ran the math and the lease on a 7-series at the time was nearly $1.50/hour!
ge96
If I go into a city I try not to drive/use Uber.
On the other side of that doing driving gigs (delivery) I avoid driving in a city because can't find a place to park/don't want to get towed.
cobertos
Ending minimum parking requirements and paying for parking seem sound after reading this.
However...
I'm skeptical of demand-based parking pricing after a local entertainment company started using it. $5-$100 for parking depending on how close the lot is to the venue moderated by big TV screens on each lot.
Proper demand measurement requires data and insight. Closeness to venue is a reasonable proxy for demand. But what if we could price the lot based on who's playing at the venue? An artist with wealthier clientele requires it's patrons pay more for parking? What if it could use your personal music tastes to upcharge? Or perhaps you used the cheap $5 lot for a different destination, should there be an upcharge then? The end game of demand-based parking, or any demand-based pricing results in more data extraction, for better insights, to extract exactly the highest amount of money each person is willing to pay. It gives power to those with the best data and puts more effort (labor/money) into figuring out better ways to get that data.
languagehacker
For folks who don't want to read a tome like The High Cost of Free Parking, give Paved Paradise by Henry Grabar a shot. It's a lot of the same content, but punchier with a lot fewer facts and figures making much the same point.
regnull
> One survey of the literature suggests that drivers in the typical American city spend an average of eight minutes looking for parking at the end of each trip.
Maybe it's just me, but this doesn't sound realistic at all. If there is a place where I would spend eight minutes looking for parking, I would rather not go. And that's average, meaning some people spending twice as much? 16 minutes to look for parking? Who would do that?
jerlam
> If there is a place where I would spend eight minutes looking for parking, I would rather not go.
What happens when that place is your own home?
Do you routinely cancel necessary appointments or meetings with friends because you cannot find parking?
Eight minutes sounds excessive, but I don't think it's as uncommon as people think. Sitting at a traffic light or circling a single city block can take five minutes. There are paid parking structures which take ten minutes to enter, find a space, park, and then exit the structure.
toast0
I've lived in places where I wouldn't be able to park if I drove home late at night. In that case, I wouldn't drive to events where I would arrive home late at night. And since public transportation tends to be poor late at night, that would mean either I'd carpool or not go.
AcerbicZero
I bought a truck and now I just park on the grass in those situations. Terrible solution, but functional in this city :/
VyseofArcadia
I just straight up refuse to drive into the nearest big city. I will happily take public transit[0] rather than spend 10 minutes looking for a place to pay $20/hr to park. And I'm the only one in my social circle like this. Everyone else will just spend the time in the money, even if they could have, for example, parked for free at a commuter rail lot and ridden in for $5.
[0] which I acknowledge I'm lucky to have
Arainach
Consider how many people wait in line or drive a few miles further for "cheaper gas" without ever thinking of the value of their time, or the cost of gas and wear and tear on their vehicles they spend doing so, and that may make this theory more plausible for you.
EDIT: An even better comparison is the number of people who will sit in a parking lot waiting for someone to vacate a spot rather than parking in plentiful available spots another 50-100 meters away
pests
I don’t agree with your edit.
In my area it’s freezing cold most of the year. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wait a minute or two for a spot instead of literally walking an extra two football fields in harsh weather. Increased fall risk, etc.
shpongled
I believe it. I have seen people circle parking lots multiple times or sit parked in the middle of the road waiting for a spot to open up rather than just drive another 5 minutes farther away and then walk.
I lived in a neighborhood ~5 years ago where I didn't have a dedicated parking space. I generally had to park a 10-15 minute walk away from where I lived. Many people would rather just circle for 15 minutes instead.
bombcar
If you parked 15 minutes away, and they circled for 15 minutes, they came out ahead - because they would have a short walk back to their car, you'd have a 15 minute one.
People like convenience, they don't like being reminded they often have to pay for it.
For example, people are willing to pay more for a dedicated parking space than they are to pay per use - even if they're basically the same.
mystifyingpoi
I remember my vacation in Spain, 20-30 minutes circling around for parking spot each time. Total madness, I'd rather pick different place, had I known that.
hibikir
If you spend any time driving in a vacation to Spain, something went wrong.
I spend 6 weeks there last summer. I never drove, and our only cab was to the airport
potato3732842
It's not. It's obviously BS. You'd have to be traveling somewhere pretty specific at high demand times, fairly frequently spending 15+min or occasionally spending an hour or more to get an 8min AVERAGE. That such a situation applies to a statistically relevant amount of people simply doesn't pass the sniff test.
That said, the inclusion of such BS doesn't really affect the overall point of the article.
niemandhier
Unfortunately some cities forget to provide alternatives:
If you drop parking lot requirements you need to provide people with access to a mode of transportation.
muttonhead
Removing parking requirements doesn't ban parking, it just lets the market / builder / business owner decide how much parking to provide, instead of wildly over-estimated minimums.
rcpt
No you don't.
Parking can exist just fine. The only ask is that the person parking their car pays for it (instead of everyone else paying).
bobtheborg
Nope. The article is much more like "if you drop parking lot requirements, you need to demand price parking so there are always a couple of spots available, drivers have incentives to leave, etc."
gadders
In the UK, councils often raise parking costs for high street on-street parking and car parks they own. Customers then vote with their feet (or wheels) and shop at out of town mega-supermarkets where the parking is free.
The councils then complain that their high street is dying.
potato3732842
That's just a roundabout wealth transfer from local business owners to the government.
Kinda funny how the council is behaving like a medieval lord raising taxes but without the ability to tie people to the land it doesn't work all that well.
lostdog
Are the parking lots at the high street full or empty? That's the easiest way to understand if they've got the price right.
null
throw0101c
Shoup passed away on February 6:
* https://parkingreform.org/donald-shoup/
* https://cal.streetsblog.org/2025/02/08/streetsblog-mourns-th...
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43004881
His book:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Cost_of_Free_Parking
* EconTalk podcast episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sgmw3jQcyc
null
Oregon eliminated burdensome parking regulations in most larger cities and: it's fine.
Many home builders still add parking to new projects because there is market demand for it - and they are also competing for tenants or buyers against existing housing which has parking.
But there is now the flexibility to do some projects without parking, which really helps at the affordable end of the spectrum, and is a good fit for more walkable locations.
BTW, Nolan Gray, cited as the author, has a book out himself that's really approachable and good reading if you're interested in cities: https://islandpress.org/books/arbitrary-lines